Spiral Knights - Cutter sword series without normal type

Cutter sword series without normal type

12 Réponses [Dernière contribution]

mar, 12/16/2014 - 10:23

Kylven

Hi,

Having seen last update that included lots of variant for existing guns, it revived in me the dream of using the quick sword known as the cutter. I've always loved that sword and it was my very first 5* (dread venom striker) but since the damage is 'normal' it is unusable; indeed compared to an appropriate weapon type for the monster you are currently fighting the lack in damage is far too great to even consider the cutters (the only point was to poison target, but from a long time now there are better ways to do it)

So my suggestion would be for a piercing sword in the line. Although we could well hope for all 3 types to be considered I believe piercing to fit better a swift style.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 10:54

Holy-Nightmare

+1 to suggestion

Normal weapons are not unusable, just not as efficient as others

The Iron Slug, Nitronome, Leviathan Blade, and Volcanic Pepperbox are fine examples of good Normal weapons

mar, 12/16/2014 - 11:58

Fangel

Add some changes, yes.

Cutters are fast, short range weapons. The enemies weak to piercing require weapons that are fast in order to be effective.
I think a change to the wild hunting blade to make it deal piercing would be a good change. It already has the sharp picks in its design.

Other damage types are less necessary, but would be appreciated. Not covering the full range of damage types lets the normal version be super helpful.

Also, cutter lines (as of now) are perfectly fine if you add damage bonuses onto them. Increased attack speed helps too. With a boost from either you'll start tearing your foes apart!

mar, 12/16/2014 - 12:20

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fangel

I kind of like the WHB, it provides nice coverage to those Lumbers and Polyps that often pop up in Wolver dens.

Keep the ones we have, create new lines for status and damage coverage, and boost the Flinch rate of Cutters a bit.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 12:37

Fangel

Getting at the idea

Making new cutters would be fine on my list. As of right now, the dread venom striker already fits its role. The wild hunting blade would fit its own role better (that is, hunting beasts) if it dealt piercing damage.

Wild hunting blade is still solid as is, but if we added more types of cutters, we wouldn't need multiple "normal" cutters. Wild Hunting Blade seems more viable for a change if we get a change. Arguably it might become less effective against other enemies in wolver dens, but at the same time you probably shouldn't only bring piercing weapons to a wolver den (a shadow or elemental secondary works great).

But yes, increasing the flinch rate on the charge at least would be nice. Normal attacks are fast and dangerous, but the charge attack has such short range and keeps you standing right in front of the enemy. Flinching them during the charge is almost mandatory.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 13:06

Kylven

My "unusable" does not mean

My "unusable" does not mean it is actually impossible to use them, but just that the lack of damage compared to a flourish, a glacius, or say an acheron make them pointless, obviously people who do not have yet the mean to have these options might feel an all around (normal type) weapon to be somewhat better, but in the end when resources are no longer a problem everybody has stopped using normal type (unless for style/look preferences).

For instance I compared my glacius and dread venom striker fighting construct, and there was no doubt at all.
I am already using damage bonuses but it does not change anything since it will also affect other (non-normal) weapon, and thus the difference between the two will be of the same ratio.

I would be fine with a change to WHB to be piercing but as pointed some people do use the weapon (maybe as a secondary?) to cover (even if less efficiently) all kind of monsters, so a new one could possibly be better as not to upset anyone.

PS: I guess a similar approach could be done for the troika line (maybe with shadow type in mind). I suggested piercing also because at the moment piercing sword are all of flourish attack pattern (charge attack aside)

mar, 12/16/2014 - 13:19

Thunder-The-Bright

algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

you are comparing DVS with the three weapons with the most damage output against effective targets, sure it doesn't compare. DVS has damage akin to blaster and antigua (main and ghost swing respecively, and scaling with star level), I don't think it can compare to an acheron, which has the damage of a GF.
overall DVS is a not-so-great weapon and I'm all for buffing it, but please don't take out the ability of using it everywhere that is normal damage.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 13:23

Fangel

Hmm.

I use my dread venom striker against fiends quite a bit. I honestly prefer it over a flourish. It's really good against them in all forms, as you can hack away at gorgos and flinch devilites very quickly.

Wild Hunting Blade is a good normal weapon, but it would be an even better piercing weapon.

Troikas should be okay where they are. Slow piercing swords is something that I have yet to be swayed on, especially when it's just smacking a damage type onto an existing weapon pattern. A shadow troika would be interesting and devastating with charge attacks.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 14:26

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fangel

The WHB claim to fame is the Flinch on the charge, I use this to shut down slow or immobile enemies like gun puppies, polyps, and even lumbers, giving it pierce would ruin it's charge capability.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 15:21

Kylven

ThunderTheBright you can't be

ThunderTheBright you can't be serious while trying to compare a sword to some gun... and you pointed I so called compared to "most damage output" but the comparison would be the same on avenger series: regardless of which weapon, having normal damage is far behind any specific weapon -- which indeed make sense, and nowhere would I have suggested to boost normal damage weapon, they are weaker due to their ability to hit all monster the same and I would assume it's kind be useful for new player in that scope.
The point here is to have a DVS attack pattern weapon with piercing damage; as Fangel pointed WHB being changed to piercing might make sense (unless a new one would simply be created/added)

Holy-Nightmare, I am not quite sure I follow you on this, I do not have a WHB at the moment so can hardly honestly argue about the its charge attack being useful on tree or puppies, however the 3 hit combo swords are way more efficient at that on gun towers, and tree ... well who cares? just have them strike the air then you can take them out with any weapon ~really.
But anyway, as I stated before, I understand that some people might be using WHB (or DVS) for whatever reason as there are now (I mean as normal weapons) thus it would be safer to go for a brand new weapon, maybe just a new branch in the cutter line after the 4* Hunting blade.

However in that case you could think that the new piercing should not have a bonus (e.g. dmg against beast from WHB) and then it would not make sense to have a piercing blade without bonus and a normal one with bonus on beast. (as clearly the piercing one would be way more efficient on beast and as such the other one would not make sense)
As Fangel said, the change to piercing would make sense as the sword is aimed at beast hunting (maybe the beast bonus might be nerfed though -- but stay as low more like for flaw of the weapon as the "beast hunter" than actual stats ...)
Note: Personally, in the event of WHB to be changed to piercing I would not mind for the bonus to be removed completely since the damage type change would make it stronger on beast anyway, and you can get the damage bonus from other means.

In the end I believe my suggestion is of interest, with people just arguing whether it should be a 3rd weapon in the cutter series or a change on WHB.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 16:47

#10

Thunder-The-Bright

I am totally serious about

I am totally serious about comparing cutter line to guns. this spreadsheet doesn't refer to the damage of WHB or DVS, but feel free to compare the damage. remember that this is pure damage, you gotta substract the magical number 63. was it 63?
as for fangel suggestion, I am totally for adding lines, but I think that the current weapons just need a damage buff.

mar, 12/16/2014 - 18:31

#11

Fangel

Definitely at least need a piercing variant

If Three Rings wants to add a new cutter in without changing existing ones, it's fine by me. Just seems a bit redundant to have the same weapon function deal the same damage without it being a status change while introducing a new variant. Only paths I can think of that do this would be brandish and alchemers, both of which have no 5* normal variant.
Basically, it's the reason why the cold iron carver is typically inferior to the leviathan blade. As of right now, you take the dread venom striker for poison, and the wild hunting blade for flinching. Add flinch to the entire cutter line and suddenly the wild hunting blade's purpose has been nullified. However, making that weapon deal piercing damage allows for it to be more specialized and thus, have a niche that the dread venom cannot be better at.

Basically what I'm saying is buffing all cutters is what needs to happen anyways. The reason the wild hunting blade is a good choice right now is because cutters are by default underpowered. By buffing all cutters it's no longer a decent choice as the DVS will always be better. Hence, piercing damage would make it be better in some cases while not making it inherently better than the DVS.
If you add a new piercing cutter, it will always outperform the wild hunting blade at what the wild hunting blade is designed for. It's like if there was a normal antigua with a beast high and then the gilded griffin came along. That normal antigua would become outclassed immediately. Sure, it might be helpful for one to four enemies that might spawn in a certain type of level, but it's not like you'll be using that weapon on those few enemies anyways.

Bottom line is a piercing cutter will outclass the wild hunting blade in the same way the fang of vog outclasses the cold iron carver, and similarly the new blasters outclass the old normal blaster.
Knowing Three Rings it's likely if this was taken into effect, the wild hunting blade would go unchanged, which is perfectly OK with me. I just wouldn't touch the wild hunting blade ever in favor of the piercing one.

mer, 12/17/2014 - 21:35

#12

Midnight-Violet

I'd like to have a shadow

I'd like to have a shadow cutter.

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Cutter sword series without normal type