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Balancing sealed sword line against brandishes

7 replies [Last post]
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 00:06
Dimpl's picture
Dimpl

Since the brandish line buff, I feel that they have covered the only real purpose of the SS line (ranged attack of a melee weapon).

For the normal attack, a brandish (combustor, glacius etc.) is faster (the user is less vulnerable) and inflicts a status, compared to DA/GF (I don't count GF status, because 1. it can also be inflicted on the user, and 2. it is useless in PvE). Additionally, the combo does more damage (3 hits taking a similar time to execute as 2 from DA/GF) and and is easier to execute (the player must be standing very close to connect with both hits from a DA/GF, and is vulnerable if the second hit misses).

For the charge attack, a brandish executes immediately, compared to a ~1.5sec delay from DA/GF, inflicts a status (as earlier mentioned), and works regardless of whether or not a player is standing beside a wall. I don't know how damage compares (due to multiple hits) - it looks like DA/GF is stronger, but not by much.

With regards to balance, I have a few suggestions:

Lower damage on the brandish line (an option, but not a very good one).

Make the knockback from the charge attack perpendicular to the direction of the attack (i.e. sideways). This way, the brandish would retain its high DPS, but be less useful for CC.

For the normal attack from DA/FG, lower the knockback on the first strike, and raise it on the second strike, so that both strikes will connect more often, and the weapon is more useful for CC.

Fix the bug with the DA/GF charge attack.

Before I receive a torrent of hate, I don't feel that I am complaining, but expressing my opinion. Please don't reply unless you wish to talk about balance between the two sword families.

Fri, 01/09/2015 - 00:50
#1
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Divine avenger and acheron have the same damage numbers, but divine avenger covers more area with its attacks (you could hit 1-2 slags with your combusted, or you could hit 5-7 slags with your divine avenger) and has a larger, more damaging charge. This makes them almost entirely on par with one another, and useful in vastly different ways despite how similar they are to one another.

The reason the brandishes are better in general (and thus so noteworthy) is because of how different their abilities are. Whereas divine avenger deals crowd control, combuster deals crowd control AND single target damage, equally well. The caveat to this is that if you have a capable weapon that deals high damage point blank (like dread venoms striker), then the crowd control from something divine avenger immediately becomes more useful than the overall utility offered by something like combuster. In this way, a better balance idea would be-

Heavy damage swords = slightly higher ramp up in damage+extended range, to encourage their use in the end game
Dread venom striker = higher ramp up in damage, unleash the split damage via shadow/piercing but not elemental damage
Warmaster rocket hammer = first strike now same as combuster's

This way, the brandishes are capable of carrying players through most content, but drop off at some point and become less worthy in the face of other options- especially for pure swordsmen. Nerfing brandishes like you say kind of removes them from the picture, primarily because of the decisions made for the gunner update- why would I use a crummy nerfed brandish when I can use iron slug, winter grave, or callahan?

. . .

Faust and gran faust on the other hand are just poor weapons that truthfully need buffing. The curse status on them is an interesting choice, and could be quite potent if allowed to be... and I think that it should be, in exchange for the massive spreading bullets found on divine avenger.

Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:33
#2
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
DA charge is better vs

DA charge is better vs groups, GF charge is so slow and has less "flying blades" so the charge DPS (even with curse) is less than brandishes.

When it comes to straight up DPS vs single targets Brandishes are the best, as the number of enemies climbs however the DA becomes more and more useful, both as area control and group DPS.

I would like to see some higher damage from heavy swords and that wall bug fix, just to make them more competitive in PVP (definitely more speed and power on the Troikas)

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 23:44
#3
Dimpl's picture
Dimpl
@Fehzor

The biggest problem I have with GF charge is that curse on self is not comparable with curse on an enemy (outside of PVP). Additionally, for a player with only 2 weapon slots, the charge is out of the question (as curse takes out two weapons).

You mentioned that acheron damage matches DA, but considering that acheron swings faster, it has a higher dps. I believe that the DA should do greater damage, as the player is significantly more vulnerable when using it. Against large groups at close range (particularly in graveyards, where the gravestones prevent the DA charge from being useful), I am reluctant to use the second swipe, as there is ample time for a slag to get a hit on me. If I'm pushing a slag into a corner and swing twice, I will be hit. Brandishes (to my knowledge) do not have these issues.

However, the wall bug is one of the biggest problems with the DA - CC is more of a problem in enclosed spaces, which break the DA (particularly because the player jumps backwards before releasing the charge). Fixing it might be all the sword needs to be competitive.

Even with a decrease in power, I believe brandishes would still be useful to a pure swordsman because of their status abilities. Voltedge is the only sword capable of inflicting shock, glacius beats triglav as it is faster and has a higher chance of freezing, etc. Also (this is speculation), I feel like the magnus line will get a nerf soon, considering that the charge attack was buffed in so many ways in the last update. They don't feel like heavy guns anymore (though they were too 'heavy' before the gunner update).

I agree wholeheartedly that heavy swords need a buff - they suffer the same problems of vulnerability, and have very little damage at the moment.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 01:45
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Acheron only has higher single target damage per second. Divine avenger can triple or even quadruple its damage by hitting 3 to 4 enemies. Acheron cannot accomplish this nearly as effectively; trying to do so on the regular is a good way to take damage. As an example-

2 full combos on acheron on a single enemy each = 4 first swipes; 2 finishers (about 1.5 of a first swipe)
3 first hits with divine avenger on 3 enemies = 9 first swipes

I meant to mention the wall bug so that you couldn't try to give me the straw man with it, but was having trouble fitting it into my post. Yes, it should be fixed. The guns were fixed and there isn't any reason for divine avenger's charge to get stuck on things. Gran faust on the other hand I did mention in my post, where I also agreed with you that it needs some work. Lastly, I did think that the heavy swords could use a buff. I wrote about that too.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:53
#5
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
....

The old magnus lines had the same problem as the DA charge, now they are fixed and much better, they just require a bit of aiming to get the most DPS.

One thing to note is that brandishes are much more compatible with vortexes than DA or GF and put out more damage than troika lines. For a DA to work on a vortex you have to have a teammate helping you with vortex setup. With brandishes you can setup your own vortex.

The vortexes can help patch up the brandish's weakness against groups and for those with 4 slots this is and easy fix for those situations that need group DPS.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:07
#6
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Why I think this idea won't be heard. I know they didn't listen to me--or a lot of people, for that matter.

If you don't care to watch, it's that specific weapons are a way of setting difficulty.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:38
#7
Jessecho's picture
Jessecho
Autofire

At first I agreed with this idea of difficulty coming from using bad equipment. However, when you take a look at all of the changes they made with the Gunner Update, most weapons and gear were greatly balanced, leading me to believe that the inevitable Sword and Bomb updates will balance out the rest of the gear and OOO won't go about it in the same way as Souls II.

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