Spiral Knights - Weaponry Shield

Weaponry Shield

13 replies [Last post]

Thu, 01/15/2015 - 21:10

Chaos-Mist

There seem to be ALOT of posts about dual-wielding. As cool as the idea is I'm personally against it. Two swords is unquestionably better than one and taking away the shield (or any of the other ideas I've seen for making the dual-wield less powerful won't really do much to it, I mean, let's face it - who's going to choose a shield over a second weapon when they get used to playing? They'll learn to dodge and shields will become as useless as the Striker since the gunner update (sorry Striker lovers, I love it too but we have to be honest...the gunner update means most guns cripple it in speed, power and range).
My alternative to the dual wielding is to make shields that deal damage but don't protect the user (or have a weaker mix of the two). At first, looking at this idea, it's hard to tell the difference. However I hope you see the advantage to gameplay as I continue to explain.

The main idea I had for one of these shields would be Vanaduke's mask. The mask would be a line starting at 3* and possibly be based on Almirian Seals (or even have some relation to the Shadow Lair. A Shadow Lair shield would be nice). The original 3* shield would surround the user in three small fireballs, alot like the Drakon ability (I originally designed this before sprites but lost my idea. A friend found it and gave it back to me recently) dealing low (Shadow?) damage and inflicting fire. I am open to the idea of it dealing no damage at all but having 100% chance of inflicting fire. The shield would offer no protection and the shield bar would decrease with usage. The shield bash would turn the user into a fireball, inflicting fire. This would also inflict the user with strong fire. The shield cannot be used while frozen.
At 4* the shield would fire bolts out in all 4 directions after predetermined times (of around 1 second). The time would only count while the shiled is continuously used (so as to stop people tapping x). These bolts would deal less (if any) damage and inflict the same fire. The shield bash would still be the same.
At 5* the shield's fired bolts will fire bolts out in four directions around 3 squares away from the location they were fired from. The shield bash would would possibly deal stun (or have some damage bonus). If the shield bash does deal stun then it'd be fair to the line to inflict it on the user aswell.

Obviously if Vanaduke's Mask becomes a shield Rormy, Hutchins and Snarby need their alternatives.

Rormy (Cannot be used while shocked or poisoned. User has resistance to freeze.):
3*- Shield fires rocket infront of the user per second (time drains shield bar). Shield bash is explosive (as in lots of knockback) but deals no status (or possibly shock).
4*- Shield fires three rockets infront of the user per second (" "). Shield bash is explosive but deals no status (or possibly shock).
5*- Shield fires three rockets per second. When shield bar is depleted the shield fires out a spray of shock bullets (the shield will only be usable when fully charged). Shield bash is explosive and has a random chance to inflict fire and/or shock.

Hutchins (Cannot be used while on fire or cursed):
3*- Shield causes the user to spin, dealing damage but no status. Shield bash has massive knockback without moving the user more than around 2 squares. This could also possibly knock teammates back alike the Rocket Hammer.
4*- Shield causes the user to spin, dealing damage but no status. Player can absorb jelly minis. Shield bash has massive knockback without moving the user more than around 2 squares. This could also possibly knock teammates back alike the Rocket Hammer. Shield bash inflicts freeze (with chance of inflicting upon the user).
5*- Shield causes the user to spin, dealing damage with freeze status. Player has a very low chance to absorb Slimes. Shield bash has massive knockback without moving the user more than 1 square. This could also possibly knock teammates back alike the Rocket Hammer. Shield bash inflicts freeze and/or stun randomly to both enemies and friendly players.

Snarby (Cannot be used while stunned):
3*- Shield fires a spike in-front, dealing damage but no status. Shield bash turns the user into a line of spikes (in style of the Snarby) with them diving out of the ground at the end. Shield bash will inflict poison but has a high chance to inflict upon the user.
4*- Shield fires 3 spikes in-front, dealing damage but no status. Shield bash turns user into a line of spikes with them diving out of the ground at the end. Shield bash will inflict poison but has a high chance to inflict upon the user.
5*- Shield fires 3 spikes in-front, dealing damage and poison. When shield is depleted a "bark" is fired in-front, alike with the Wild Hunting Blade. Shield bash turns user into a line of spikes with them diving out of the ground at the end. Shield bash will inflict poison but has a high chance to inflict upon the user. After surfacing from the shield bash the user will be thrown forward 1.5 squares, launching a large "bark".

TY for reading. :D

Fri, 01/16/2015 - 17:34

Supnaplamqw

When I read your intro,I was like "lolwut?",But then...

I read your idea and understood what you meant.The problem with this idea, is the complete opposite of the problem you had with dual swords:No one would take this.Other status weapons and even vials would do just fine,nobodies going to give up something so crucial,especially in T3.It seems that if you plan to replace shields,the replacement would have to be equally defensive.

Fri, 01/16/2015 - 18:40

Fangel

Hm.

In another thread where you mentioned logic behind "if one boss exists, ALL of them must!" I disagreed with that. I mean, this suggestion itself is okay but they don't really need to be boss-themed (took me a bit to figure out what you meant by "Hutchins". Might be better to use terms that other users will understand at first glance).

However it's not really a... Well... Viable solution. It's a complete override to shields, which isn't bad mind you. It's just... I don't know, it just doesn't feel right. The reason dual wield threads never really work is because shields are crucial to the game.
If you wanted to make a different class of shields, such as "status shields", that could work. Such as, every time the shield breaks it emits a pulse that inflicts a certain status in a radius around the user. An alternative would be for a parrying blade shield that counter-attacks melee attacks when hit but negates the initial hit(but the blade is then "broken", and regenerates like a shield would). Both of these have niche uses while not making current shields obsolete, and could have additional bonuses put on them, such as sword ASI: high, or Damage bonus vs gremlins: medium.
Making shields unique has been something hard to do, but making shields weapons isn't the way to go about it.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 10:02

Chaos-Mist

@supnaplamqw People do use

@supnaplamqw
People do use some shields irregardless of their defence. The best example would probably be the Swiftstrike buckler. It's not too uncommon to see being used by those who are able to dodge attacks but want more power. Not only that but, for the least, the 4* and 5* variants of the shields I have suggested have effects completely unlike vials and not just that but since the shield bar still recharges it's fully re-usable. However for what you said, I think the idea "I am open to the idea of it dealing no damage at all" I originally said would put people off using them (because in that case they wouldn't be much better than vials). I still think the damage should be relatively low inflicting Shadow/Elemental/Normal/Pierce. The normal damage Hutchins shield doing the most damage to make up for lack of specialist damage.

@Fangel
Hutchins means JK. It needs a name other than it's initials like the other bosses, and I'm going for the unreasonable option and hoping it eventually catches on.
I have no problem with non-boss themed shields; it's just that, as I mentioned, I made this idea long ago. The post is based on that idea and when first posting I didn't want to revert from the original idea. I think it'd be fun to see other shield ideas outside of the bosses (maybe based on mobs attacks or even sprites?).
Also I like your status shields. Both the Snarby and Rormy shields do have an effect when their bar depletes, even if the Snarby one doesn't deal a status and the Rormy one has less chance to inflict status than your status shields. However the problem with your shields is that mist bombs seem like an easier alternative and faster to use.
The main use of a shield for players who are used to SK is shield bumping, rather than actual blocking, as shield bumping knocks enemies back. This is still a possibility in the Hutchins shield and does damage, so atleast that one shield would be a very viable option.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 10:43

Supnaplamqw

The problem with that ex is that DOES give a defensive property

Not only is it capable of absorbing 1 hit at the most, the ASI High does help the defensive part of swordsmanship and even gunmanship,mostly to do with timing.While it is an offensive shield,it does possess defensive capability.

The problem I see with these is that capability relies on something like status,and therefore can easily be replaced w/ status weapons and vials.Moreso, the abilities work better on a Battle Sprite.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 11:11

Chaos-Mist

@Supnaplamqw

If OOO released Boss themed battle sprites it is highly possible the shields would be worthless. However, they probably won't, so until they do the idea is safe from worrying about battle sprites doing a better job.
In t3 the swiftstrike buckler doesn't give very much defensive ability at all, and most Swiftsrike users never get that one block as they learn to move faster rather than blocking. The point I was making regarding the Swiftstrike is that users don't actually ever seem to block with it, showing players are fully capable of playing without a shield that directly blocks hits.
Also, some of the shields could have short moments when they do block. The Rormy shield for example could put up a small field around the user during the instance off when it fires. If the shield gets hit it breaks.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 11:23

Supnaplamqw

What I was trying to say is that b/c the high ASI is there

They can dodge, atleast enough to carry them through the mission.Timing is important to swordsmanship, though I do agree this game encourages offense too much.Also Boss themed battle sprites are a nice idea, I doubt they would make shields obsolete.
I think the best complement to this idea would be shields like yours that would block then emit a short attack,having a short cooldown before you can block
again.They do still have a meter that can be fully depleted,and regeneration is much slower.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 11:45

Chaos-Mist

@Supnaplamqw

I didn't mean that they would make ALL shields obsolete, just the ones above. I just think OOO would be alot faster to decide on making shields than more sprites.
Gunners and bombers have no real need for a shield either as they spend their time dodging everything. Infact normal shields knockback can screw with bombers flow and so shields that offer no defence, or low defence but give no knockback seem to me like they would help bombers more than anyone. Gunners usually keep well away from enemies and dash if they get too close so they don't need the defence too much either - especially relevant due to the gunner update making around 9/10 players gunners now.
I will admit that the SSB's ASI does help sword users, however, if they already have ASIs or use fast weapons they can still dodge. Striker is completely outdated and needs some support. Since it has the easiest time dodging a shield like the SSB that doesn't give ASI could only prove to give the Striker-user a well needed boost. Aswell as that other fast sword users with swords like the Winmillion and Flourish don't need any defence, only power.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 12:26

Fangel

It does have a name.

JK's in-game name is "Royal Jelly". Not to pull a Batabii or anything, but it does have its name already. It's a pun, as "royal jelly" is what queen bees eat and it is highly nutritious. JK is just what many players call the royal jelly as it is often called the "Jelly King".
I have no idea where you're pulling "Hutchins" from, but I can't see anyone ever using that name to describe slime royalty.

Gunners and bombers do have a use for shields. Shield canceling is important, and bombers need to block the occasional projectile flying through, especially since they have no great shadow/piercing defense.

Shields should have some sort of defense always. However, they can also have some bonus things. If we were to have shields that acted special like the ones you suggest, they should have defensive power but drain the shield on use. This means you can still block shots but also be offensive. It might get a bit crazy at close range with a fire barrier, drakon flame barrier, and this shield, but still...

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 12:35

Chaos-Mist

@Fangel

"JK's in-game name is "Royal Jelly"." - I meant how people call the others Rormy, Vana and Snarby.

"Shield canceling is important" - I don't see why the above shields wouldn't allow shield cancelling.

"Shields should have some sort of defense always. However, they can also have some bonus things. If we were to have shields that acted special like the ones you suggest, they should have defensive power but drain the shield on use." - Fully fine with that. I don't mind dropping their power to add barriers or normal shield defences. Of course they'd have to be really weak too, since they are offering offensive options. The only shield that bugs me in regards to that is the (what the devil is it's name again...?) Snarby shield. It's a little over-powered for a shield that offers both offence and defence, and pretty much every sword user uses it. The above shields would give other options to sword users for offence and defence.

"It might get a bit crazy at close range with a fire barrier, drakon flame barrier, and this shield, but still..." - Drakon is wildly viewed as the worst sprite. I say we let it go crazy, then new players won't be laughed at for choosing drakon (seraphynx ftw). What would be crazier would be poison barrier, Vana shield, Glacius and drakon flame barrier.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 13:01

#10

Fangel

Hm...

JK is the shorthand for the Royal Jelly, much like roarmy is for roarmulus twins and vana is for Lord Vanaduke. If we didn't have regular enemies called "Jellies" I assure you people would call that boss "jelly", or something similar. We don't give them these names because we adore them, we give them as shorthands.

I'll give you the shield canceling bit. Something to think about as well is the lockdown shield mechanics. Perhaps these shields would need a "charge up" period like the guardian shield? Like, it's a normal shield for a few seconds, but then it starts doing its special thing after a second or two of being deployed. It makes shield canceling the same thing and doesn't make players spew fire everywhere.

What you're thinking of is the barbarous thorn shield. That shield is the same amount of usefulness as a swiftstrike, just it lasts longer in tier 3. That shield has no status resistances, which is the biggest thing that shields have going for them.
The reason swordies use the sword shield is because it fits their class. Hybrids who aren't min-maxing will often have other shields, such as volanic plate, grey owlite, or crest of almire. Any shield that boosts combat stats will be useful. If players had UVs for everything on their gear, and they wanted to, they might even use a scarlet shield for the health bonus. Once you stop being hit you don't need to worry about what your shield does, so having a passive ability makes it useful to those players.

And each battle sprite is useful in its own way. Seraphynx is great for support and keeping yourself alive (angelic aura, why do you break so fast when over teammates!?), Maskeraith is pretty much a support AND powerhouse, and Drakon is great for mobility and boosts. Drakon also gives you a ranged attack when you have none, so it's a good match for swordies. Sadly, Maskeraith has a better DPS than Drakon due to each needle doing damage. Drakon is usually ranked lower than Seraphynx due to Seraphynx having abilities that keep the knight alive rather than kill the enemies faster, as we do that well enough on our own.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 13:27

#11

Supnaplamqw

So that's what you meant by

So that's what you meant by obsolete,sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for what you say about ASI, its stackable and still gives quite an offensive edge to gunners and swordsmen.Not to mention its less accesible.

As for what you say about gunners and bombers,the same could be said about swordsmen as well.It really depends on the number of enemies vs. the size and arrangement of the area.Shield blocks other than bumping,is for situations you can't dodge, and ASI can mitigate that.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:04

#12

Chaos-Mist

@Fangel

"JK is the shorthand for the Royal Jelly" - But Roarmulus Twins has RT and Rormy.

"Something to think about as well is the lockdown shield mechanics." - I think it's unlikely the shields would be a part of Lockdown as no other shields are and OOO don't seem to want to change the shield roles in LD.

"Like, it's a normal shield for a few seconds, but then it starts doing its special thing after a second or two of being deployed." - Some of the shields were meant to be every second or two, sorry if I didn't make that clear. The only one I didn't put that for is the Vana one and I don't especially mind if it takes a second to start up.

"And each battle sprite is useful in its own way." - As much as it's true, try telling that to 90% of the SK population. They'll say Maskeraith is completely the best and laugh you away. It's a sorry and sad truth that nobody likes drakon other than those who got it because it looked like a dragon and got used to it.

"What you're thinking of is the barbarous thorn shield. That shield is the same amount of usefulness as a swiftstrike, just it lasts longer in tier 3." - It's probably the most used shield in the game (previous to the gunner update). People only usually use Owlite for Vana, and even then half of the party usually has a BTS. On arcade runs anyone who joins you wants or has the BTS.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:08

#13

Chaos-Mist

@Supnaplamqw

"So that's what you meant by obsolete,sorry for the misunderstanding." - NP. I should have wrote it in a better way so as to rule out misunderstandings, so the blame's on me for that (not you), no need to apologise.

"Not to mention its less accesible." - ASI is easier to have for a mission than missiles.

"Shield blocks other than bumping,is for situations you can't dodge, and ASI can mitigate that." - I find that the most useful tool in situations you can't dodge is Bash. People generally block as an old reaction and it can be quite damaging to your playing style (ever seen someone trapped hopelessly in a corner with their shield up hoping it'll save them randomly rather than trying to fight their way out?).

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