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A new battle sprite! Rigenomnes

27 replies [Last post]
Fri, 01/16/2015 - 18:23
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate

Credit goes to Fangel for thinking of this Battle sprite, here's the thread we discussed upon it in: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/107672#comment-976029

Rigenomnes is a name combined from the latin words rigescunt and omnes, or "Freeze all", which is the basic gist of this sprite, having room control with the properties of freeze, and distracting enemies.

Preferably the proper material to feed Rigenomes would be Moonstone, as Valestone doesn't seem so suiting to a freezing sprite.

Harness types me and Fangel didn't touch upon, but I would assume Iron (normal) Crystal (elemental) and Dark (shadow)

Appearance wise...I'm pretty lost, my basic idea would be a creature in cloak with small wings and glowing eyes.

Terms: Rigo = Rigenomnes, PC = Personal color

Skill One: Frost breath, like seraphynx' ray of light, however it freezes anything it comes into contact to, damaging enemies of course.
Colder: Increases the length of freeze
Blizzard: Increases range/how wide the breath reaches
Focus: Skill cool down reduction

Ultimate 1: Any contact lowers the defense of targets while freezing them as well. (Appearance change: Glacial Crown)

Ultimate 2: Can pierce through an objects/enemies defenses while freezing them (i.e, Freezing a Trojan from the front, and no, not breaking defenses.)
(Appearance change: Glacial disciple wings)

Skill two: Ice skating, Rigo goes 5 tiles in the characters direction and draws enemies in, then freezing them where they stand.
Performance: More enemies are drawn in from farther distances
Encore: Freeze mist stays down longer, thus increasing the time monsters have frozen.
Focus: Skill cooldown reduction

Ultimate 1: Enemies caught in the mist explode after being defeated (Yes, like violent heart, but slightly bigger blast radius) (Appearance change: Frosty appocrean hands around chest)
Ultimate 2: Rigo skates around the terrain singing, continuing to distract enemies, dropping the freeze effect but increasing their focus on Rigo (Awaits someone to name Rigo elsa) (appearance change: Frosty Aura)

Skill Three: Endless Winter, Rigo screeches and enemies anywhere near are both frozen and damaged gradually.
Ear splitting: Damage increases and lengthens
Let it snow: Freeze lengthens
Focus: Skill cooldown reduction

Ultimate 1: Elsa...I mean, Rigos screech lowers enemies defenses (Appearance: Vertical Vents)

Ultimate 2: Rigo breathes in to drag in enemies, then yells and enemies are scattered, being frozen. (Appearance: Polar halo)

Leave comments below!

-Dusk

Fri, 01/16/2015 - 18:25
#1
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
Edit

No use of Pc, lol, Rigos body is PC while it's cloak and hood are Frosty along with the add ons.

Fri, 01/16/2015 - 19:02
#2
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Sounds neat!

Second skill could probably be named "Ice Siren" if you wanted to. The current way would be cute though!

As for the first skill, in order for it to not be a complete clone of the seraphynx laser, what if the sprite followed behind the player while attacking? If not keeping up with the player, it could move at a reduced speed behind the player while attacking. You would have a little freezer firing in front of you, or else you can activate your sprite and it will follow the path you went on. Would make it a bit more unique!

For "performance", I'd also reckon to make that bit of skill 2 increase the "dance" duration.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 05:15
#3
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
@Fangel

Dancing around, you mean? That could work for enemies that weren't caught in the freeze mist.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 13:13
#4
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Dusk-Satoshi

I like the sprite idea, and will agree that Moonstone needs to be used and a freeze sprite is a good way to go with it BUT this sprite would be, imo, quite clearly the strongest of the four sprites. It maybe needs some changes to even it out.

"(Awaits someone to name Rigo elsa)" - Who's Rigo?

"Frost breath, like seraphynx' ray of light, however it freezes anything it comes into contact to, damaging enemies of course." - Why not make it like the Dust Zombie breath but shorter ranged? Also dealing damage while freezing them is OP, because they can't escape the damage. This skill would be superior to the Seraphynx's version in every-way. I think it should either be a very low freeze chance or not deal damage (or possibly it deals damage until they're frozen, with a really low chance of inflicting freeze). For one of the ultimates she could pull mobs in with the breath.

"Colder: Increases the length of freeze" - With what I said above I just want to clarify I don't think this should be changed to freeze chance.

"Appearance wise...I'm pretty lost" - Maybe Elsa could look like a yeti or some kind of Arctic-based animal (just not a killer whale...). Maybe she could have a parka. xD

"Ice skating, Rigo goes 5 tiles in the characters direction and draws enemies in, then freezing them where they stand." - Sprites secondary abilities are always defensive based. Not only would this skill be slightly superior to both Sera and Masker's 2nd abilities but this would be so easily spammable in even a 2 person party enemies wouldn't be allowed to be enemies, they'd be crowns that you have to hit to get. Considering that the current final boss is fire so freeze is already the most effective status in the game, it cannot be allowed to be made so easily spammable. This ability would rule all freeze weapons out of the game by rendering them useless to all those who either restart for, or have the crowns for, Elsa.
My personal idea would be purely drawing them in and not inflicting status for this skill, however if the player attacks it breaks the spell. Maybe call it "Snow Spell"?

"Skill Three: Endless Winter, Rigo screeches and enemies anywhere near are both frozen and damaged gradually." - Once again superior to the other sprites. If you have Elsa to freeze the enemies, why do you need Sera to protect you? I do think it should induce status and inflict damage (as most 3rd skills do)

"Rigo breathes in to drag in enemies, then yells and enemies are scattered, being frozen." - Rather than being an ultimate skill I think that would make a perfect 3rd skill for Elsa.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 13:46
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
It's pretty balanced as is.

Rigenomnes (or "Rigo" for short) is pretty balanced. It specializes in room control. Drakon specializes in single-target damage and partial crowd damage, maskeraith specializes in debuffing the enemy and seraphynx specializes in buffing the player.

Frost breath itself would probably have a wider area of affect. I do agree it needs to be different from a ray of light, hence I think it should try to move around while attacking. Following the player would be good.
Dealing damage while freezing them could also, you know, have invincitinks on it like the ray of light does. If anything it's worse as damage breaks freeze, but after the tinks kick in they'll be actually frozen. Ever see what happens when an enemy walks into a ray of light? They stop moving and just sort of ride the ray.

How is controlling the enemy not defensive? Drakon's "defense" is an attack. Maskeraith's "defense" completely hides the user. Seraphynx's "defense" makes enemies more likely to drop hearts, and if you have the ultimate, maybe defense orbs. Having an ability that lures enemies in then freezes them is a way to get the enemies off you, and keep them off you for a bit. Sounds vaguely defensive in that it stops enemies from attacking you and your group for a few seconds. Perhaps 3 seconds of the dance for standard, and 6 seconds for full. This would likely have about a 50 second recharge time. This means you have 24 seconds if people stack it of uninterrupted no-aggro on players. That can be powerful, but deferring aggro doesn't win rooms.
This sprite is about room control, not damage. This attack can deal little to no damage, but the freeze is what helps it.
Saying that this sprite negates the need for freeze weapons is like saying we don't need fire because drakon, or we don't need poison because maskeraith. A maskeraith won't help you with a crowd of enemies and a mender rune, nor will a drakon help with a horde of ice cubes.

Seraphynx's angelic aura is very weak. I primarily use it to recharge my shield or walk across traps. With Rigenomnes, I would be able to freeze enemies around myself. They can still attack, mind you, if you walk in front of them, and one hit on them and they're unfrozen.

I suggested it in the other thread, but I think that the final skill should have a stronger freeze with the shockwave progressively getting weaker. Within 3 tiles it inflicts strong freeze. Between 3-7 tiles, it inflicts moderate. From 7-12 tiles, it inflicts minor. Damage scales down too, the first part dealing 100%, second part dealing 50%, final part dealing 25%.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:01
#6
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
@Chaos-Mist

Also, not to complain, but before you read, read the top, I put Rigo being short for Rigonomnes

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:11
#7
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Dusk-Satoshi

There is no Rigo. There is only Elsa.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:40
#8
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Fangel

"Rigenomnes (or "Elsa" for short) is pretty balanced." - Players will and can abuse freeze too easily. Freeze weapons need to be weaker than fire, poison or no-status weapons as people can launch charged attacks easier in the freeze time. Most players either use an Autogun, a Shivermist or a Glacius. There's a reason they don't use Ash Of Agni (although they may use Combuster) or Vile Veiler (is that it's name?)(there are no non-status mist bombs). Also most players use the non-status line of the Autogun because they'd rather give the damage than have poison or fire. If there were a freeze Autogun you wouldn't be able to play Ice Queen without having the 1 person who brings it anyways, despite how pointless it is, because they say "It's a good weapon".

"I do agree it needs to be different from a ray of light, hence I think it should try to move around while attacking." - Then either Ray Of Light or this would become completely worse (depending on whether the majority of SK players view moving as a good or bad thing, I dunno what players think regarding that but I'm pretty sure the other one would be criticised enough for people to stop using it). Not only that but I think my suggested change would be more relevant to the name of the attack.

"Ever see what happens when an enemy walks into a ray of light? They stop moving and just sort of ride the ray." - Freeze holds people alot better in one location than Sera's laser. Mobs can walk out they just find it harder to move while being hit. Not only that but it continuously pushes mobs away from it (I personally think that's the best thing about the skill), whereas the freeze holds them in place to be hit again and again. Although I have already said I don't support the moving around, it would make the freezing fairer.

"Perhaps 3 seconds of the dance for standard, and 6 seconds for full." - Considering that as the freeze strength levels up it'll go up to 6/7 seconds there will be around 12 seconds freeze time (firing time + freeze effect time). That's plenty of time for the party to move back and charge their weapons in order to destroy the whole room. No-one's going to use that defensively, they're only going to use it to hold enemies in one place to use their Blitz and Combuster charge attacks.
Also back to the usage time, with harnesses and upgrades the charge time can drop quite drastically and 50 seconds is alot more than it would take to recharge, (I'm not directly sure as I never end up buying harnesses) maybe taking around 35 seconds. If 4 people all have Elsa then that's 48 seconds usage time, 35 seconds charge time. That's 13 seconds free time where all sprites are ready to fire again but have no reason to as enemies are already frozen. Even if it took 50 seconds to charge back up you have only 2 seconds of unfrozen time if the team times it well.

"Seraphynx's angelic aura is very weak." - It's very effective vs weaker mobs. Minis are actually very deadly and alot of players find them difficult but angelic aura is one of the best things to use to fight them as their attacks deal too little damage to do much to it and this allows you to hit them while they're useless.

"From 7-12 tiles, it inflicts minor." - 12 tiles is a bit....much...for a freeze....especially if it deals damage. Even if it's both weak AND minor freeze...12 tiles is too much.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 14:56
#9
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
+1

Just letting ya know that even if I debate tweaks it may need, I still think it should be brought into the game.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 15:06
#10
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
@Chaos-Mist

"Terms: Rigo = Rigenomnes, PC = Personal color" Again, read.

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 15:21
#11
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Dusk-Satoshi

"Terms: Elsa = Rigenomnes, PC = Personal color"

Sat, 01/17/2015 - 18:15
#12
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
Forget it.

Forget it. -_-

Tue, 01/20/2015 - 18:32
#13
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
That aside.

Frost breath would be best with zombie breath range instead of ray of light

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 09:28
#14
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Dusk-Satoshi

Looking back at this sprite I stand by it being ridiculously OP. So many different weapons would be made pointless by this sprite. Something to note about the other sprites is that there were no alternatives to their attacks when they were released. This sprites abilities really just seem like super-shivermist to me. I don't see any real advantage of the shivermist over this sprite and the fact that they're comparable overall isn't a good thing.
Also, having a full status inflicting set of abilities is Drakon's only advantage over the other two. This sprite should only have one or two freeze abilities overall (because Drakon is already worse than the other two sprites, let's not destroy the one strength it has).
Not only that but I think the 12 squares suggested by Fangel for the range of the 3rd skill is stupendous. It seems to me that a low chance to freeze 12 squares is wholly better than any other sprite ability so far.
Lastly; thinking about it the game doesn't need a new sprite yet, especially one that's arguably (I personally think it's obvious) stronger than the other 3. The game is already far easier than it used to be (crafting generally costs less, weapons are stronger, the gunner update meant that weapons, helms and armours alike are now inarguably better, there are sprites in the first place to increase damage output and there are more vial types (the knight-summony-thingy, spinny-orbs and artillery)), so why make it easier? If anything the developers need more levels, enemies and attacks (as in the attacks enemies launch...new ones can only help to surprise players and force a tactical response).

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 12:34
#15
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

With vengeful shadow cloak a maskeraith deals status with all its attacks
Knight summing thingy, recon flare or mecha knight kit
Spinny orbs, barrier
Yes these corrections are necessary

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 18:41
#16
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Oohnorak

None-the-less the Maskeraithe's normal shadow cloak doesn't have any status, that's just an ultimate. Drakon is the only sprite with all 3 status inflicting before ultimate.

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 19:42
#17
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
I'm a Ginger. Gingers steal souls.

Unlike Shiver, this sprite would have to use skill cooldown, when you can just charge shiv, sure, it covers a larger surface area, but after say 12-15 seconds, the mist dissapears and enemies are unfrozen, when you could just keep chaging shiv.

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 20:30
#18
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Dusk-Satoshi
When fully upgraded the first skill probably has less cool-down than the Shivermist (including harness).

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 20:37
#19
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
I'm a Ginger. Gingers steal souls.

But it only freezes targets in front with the first skill, skills that deal with targets around it will have more skill reduction.

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 20:52
#20
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Dusk-Satoshi
Cool-down should definitely not be the only thing that gives Shivermist the edge in the first place. As I've already said a party full of people makes the cooldown next to pointless, and if all maxed out even the advanced skills wouldn't have cooldown with 3 people. The only other sprite ability that has a comparable attack to a weapon is Drakon's 3rd ability with the Combuster, but the Combuster not only has the lower cool-down, it also does way more damage. Your ability does not have both of those downsides and is therefore superior to the Drakon 3rd skill.

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 21:00
#21
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
I'm a Ginger. Gingers steal souls.

Then just make the pod craftable from shivermist.

Thu, 01/22/2015 - 20:03
#22
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Dusk-Satoshi

Make the pod craftable = less money for OOO.

Fri, 01/23/2015 - 17:50
#23
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Okay.

This argument that "this sprite is OP because 4 people using it makes it OP" is generally... bad. Look at a full team of maskeraith users. Let's say all of them have chaotic haze. This means a constant wave of damage and status. For whatever reason this is "balanced", meanwhile the battle sprite that is focused on "room control" is imbalanced by controlling the room?

Um.

The sprite is balanced around singular use, or alongside other players with different sprites. Remember, an enemy that is hit while frozen is broken out of being frozen. This means that the defrost damage will likely never kick in due to players attacking in another way. This is also why I suggested the first attack for Rigo hits invincitinks after so many hits so that the target will stay frozen and also stop taking damage.

This sprite offers 3 forms of room control. First skill is target control - it will hit a select amount of enemies and freeze them so you can reposition yourself. Second skill is a crowd control - it lures crowds away from you and your team and freezes them away from you. Third skill is room control - it freezes the entire room (Should cover a large area - use an arena room as the idea of how big the range should be. Shouldn't be the entire arena but should freeze a fair amount of the enemies inside).
What you argue is that weapons already do this, and yes they sort of do. The charge attack of a glacius does the target control as well. Shivermist does crowd and sometimes even room control well. Both vortexes drag enemies away from you (without grabbing aggro, however). Keep in mind these three items are not considered "OP" by the masses, as they won't always be great to have. Shivermist isn't too great against the final wave in an arena, however venom viler is almost always considered a great choice there - to the point where people consider poison arenas a hazard. Glacius isn't always considered the best weapon, even in fire themed undead levels like Firestorm Citadel because enemies will not "ride the wave" of the charge.

Saying that this sprite will replace freeze weapons is like saying the Drakon replaces fire weapons. Firestorm isn't better than combuster or ash of agni. Firebolt isn't better than magma driver or the volcanic pepperbox. Fire weapons were not replaced with Drakon, poison weapons were not replaced with Maskeraith, and freeze weapons will not be replaced with Rigenomnes. In fact, most people with a Rigenomnes will likely forget to use their sprite abilities because that's what people do. Ash of Agni is in place to make constant fire damage. You can't take a drakon to an Ice Queen run and have the same success without an ash of agni.

For whatever reason your arguments sound like those coming from a pre-battle sprite era - which is fine and all, but we have battle sprites now to compare this one to. This battle sprite is balanced with other battle sprites. If your playstyle isn't represented by these battle sprites, and this new one fits in perfectly, then maybe it would seem "OP". But if you're more a support player, Seraphynx will work better for you. If you're a solo player, maskeraith will do you justice.

Fri, 01/23/2015 - 22:45
#24
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Fangel

My 3rd point I made; "Lastly; thinking about it the game doesn't need a new sprite yet" - The game is too easy. It needs toughening up before making things easier.

Sat, 01/24/2015 - 05:27
#25
Glitch-Incarnate's picture
Glitch-Incarnate
@Chaosmist

The only thing I think of with that is opening the core

Sat, 01/24/2015 - 13:23
#26
Fangel's picture
Fangel
We didn't need sprites at all with that reasoning

The game is easy for players who know what they're doing, learn patterns, all that. A new player might need that crowd control, and end-game itself can change up a bit from a new sprite.
The game didn't get harder when battle sprites were added to go with the whole "battle sprites are here - gotta balance that out!". Gunner update didn't make the game harder. The game doesn't need to get harder to introduce a new sprite.
Besides, for things like Grinchlin Assault and March of the Tortodrones, wouldn't a sprite based on control make those levels a bit more fun? It's not fun to die to a tortodrone 17 times in one sitting. It is, however, fun to die maybe once or twice and make it off by the skin on your teeth. Maskeraith is the sprite that lets you take a timeout while dooming your teammates. Rigenomnes would be one that helps your party rather than just yourself.

It's better to have a new sprite that people can level up and get used to using and then introduce content that makes that sprite super useful than it is to force everyone (who has the money) to attempt to power-level a sprite after content comes out (at the same time) for the sake of the new content. One of Spiral Knights' biggest issues is that it goes by too fast, so why not lower it down a notch while keeping the game fun?

That other wolver/snarby sprite that Dusk has come up with would be a great side-by-side release with this sprite, but with too much stuff happening in one thread it gets a bit cluttered. Instead of saying "This sprite is good! ... But only if all these other strings are attached", take the suggestion at face value. It's up to Three Rings on how things are introduced, and I'd love to see a sprite such as this one at any point, as long as it's not locked behind a paywall (looking at you, prize boxes).

Mon, 01/26/2015 - 17:26
#27
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
@Fangel

"One of Spiral Knights' biggest issues is that it goes by too fast" - How does this affect that? It does go by too fast but how would a new sprite help that? Stopping an enemy in position isn't fun it's slaughter. No-one uses a Glacius for "fun". If you want fun you use something risky (like a Striker, a Cautery Blade, the like) not freeze gear.

"It's not fun to die to a tortodrone 17 times in one sitting. It is, however, fun to die maybe once or twice and make it off by the skin on your teeth." - You're suggesting the sprite will cut your losses down by 15+? I'm sorry but that's rediculous if you are. You can argue all you want that the game doesn't need to be made harder to introduce a new sprite but if that sprite is capable of making a player who dies 1 times in 1 mission not die at all (or maybe once or twice) then I don't think the argument about not needing more difficulty is still valid.

"Grinchlin Assault" - How would this sprite have an effect on that mission? Isn't that one of the places it would be least effective?

"Maskeraith is the sprite that lets you take a timeout while dooming your teammates." - Lol.

"We didn't need sprites at all with that reasoning" - We didn't. They were only really bought in (imo) because players were getting so annoyed after the late gunner update (pushing OOO into needing to release something to keep people happy..).

"The game is easy for players who know what they're doing, learn patterns, all that. A new player might need that crowd control" - Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. I'd rather teach the new players to recognise attack patterns (as the story kinda does - it pits you off against monsters time after time with only the slightest changes each time to make them slightly harder..).

"end-game itself can change up a bit from a new sprite" - For how long? If it's not spammed then it'll just be forgotten - that's how players are with sprites.

"Rigenomnes would be one that helps your party rather than just yourself." - Elsa seems pretty capable of helping yourself and not just the party. The second skill of Maskeraith really isn't that good.

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