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Xephy's reasonable suggestions! #1 (feat. cutter lines)

18 replies [Last post]
Sat, 01/31/2015 - 22:53
Xephyris's picture
Xephyris

I'll be quick and concise:

The cutter lines have pretty terrible charge attacks. This is due to the fact that it takes a long time to complete, leaving you vulnerable. Simply making the charge attack faster by perhaps a second or so, adding more flinch, and reducing knock-back on all but the final strike, would make the charge actually usable.

Additionally, there's basically only one type of piercing sword (flourishes) which doesn't leave much room for choice, so making the Wild Hunting Blade piercing would not only make it a more useful sword but also give swordies more choice for piercing swords. This could, however, upset some of the few people who actually own this blade. (I'm a WHB user myself and would welcome this change). Dread Venom Striker could be made into a shadow or elemental sword too, either could potentially work. Although, I feel like there are a lot of poison+shadow dealing weapons out there, so elemental seems like a better choice.

Also while we're on charge attacks, the flourish lines (except BTB) in my opinion don't have very usable charges. The hit-boxes are very narrow and carry you a long distance, making it difficult to aim at an enemy and land all the hits. Rather than having it as swing-stab-stab, making the charge three successive wide swings with a longer lunge forward would be cool as this would allow you to rush through a group of enemies and deal damage to either side.

Fin.

Thoughts?

Sun, 02/01/2015 - 05:34
#1
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

the only problem I find in DVS is that its damage is too low. I like the DVS damage type as it is, because it lets me use it anywhere. it doesn't need another damage type, it needs more damage.
WHB has the same problem, but since it should be good against beasts more than anything else piercing would make sense.

I can agree with the charge attack idea, but WHB already has more flinching power than DVS.

for the flourishes charge attack, DMC dante's stinger move would be good for them.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 17:05
#2
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

DVS damage isn't as low as you think (and please, never suggest turning my precious DVS elemental, I'll cut your face off (just kidding of course :D)). Remember it does poison. Poison pretty much doubles the damage it does if inflicted. It would be alot better if, rather than increasing the damage, just double the chance of poison (more than double hopefully).

I already posted a thread for a new DVS and WHB charge attack. The charge attack needs to stop the player standing so still, apart from that I have no problem with it. The enemy never really manages to hit back if you pull it off well, the only problem is other enemies coming behind you mid-charge.

Also, keep WHB normal. Taking away the beast element of it's damage takes away from the meaning of the beast element of it's design.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:52
#3
Fangel's picture
Fangel
I feel like I just answered this thread

In short, cutter charge attack needs that knockback suggestion (next to none on the first few hits, increased on the final hit) and making the weapon flinch more frequently would make it a very viable weapon.

Making the wild hunting blade a piercing sword just makes sense to me IMO. The dread venom striker is fine as is, maybe more poison chance would be good, whereas the wild hunting blade is intended to kill beasts... Something other weapons do better. Turning that into a piercing weapon would help with that.
And before you ask, yes, I support making the cold iron carver elemental as well. Cutter can be split damage whereas the carver is pure elemental, as not to make their other competition any better or worse.

Also, I'm pretty sure flourish charges are more stab-stab-swing. It's like a reverse combo. It would be sort of neat if the player did a 360 swing at the end that does very little knockback with the first two stabs dealing a fair amount, so all hits can land.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:23
#4
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Fangel
"Turning that into a piercing weapon would help with that.
And before you ask, yes, I support making the cold iron carver elemental as well." - But the Carver and Hunting Blade are special because they are unique. If anything, just increase their damage vs those types so that they do more damage than the damage-type weapons (as in, Carver does more then elemental weapons vs Undead, while not being elemental itself so not doing much to constructs. I think all of these special damage weapons seem to have been abandoned and should have damage boosted.

"In short, cutter charge attack need that knockback suggestion (next to none on the first few hits, increased on the final hit) and making the weapon flinch more frequently would make it a very viable weapon." - That won't assist the charge being used in LD. Not only that, but the charge will be useless again if smart-AI does become used (most other weapons charge attacks should still be fine for that, Blitz lines maybe not so much but they're OP damage wise so I really don't care if they fall).

"Also, I'm pretty sure flourish charges are more stab-stab-swing. It's like a reverse combo. It would be sort of neat if the player did a 360 swing at the end that does very little knockback with the first two stabs dealing a fair amount, so all hits can land." - Are you suggesting making Flourish a 4-hit combo? If so, then that'd be cool (because BTB is superior in all aspects atm imo). The problem being is that it's a fencing sword...spinning wouldn't be a smart way to end a combo in that regards.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 16:01
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
No, not a combo

Are you suggesting making Flourish a 4-hit combo?
No, I was suggesting revamping its charge attack.

That won't assist the charge being used in LD.
That's because the cutter's range and damage, unboosted, is terrible vs a knight in lockdown. Why is that? Because knights might get hit once, but then walk out of the stream of damage in front of them because they don't just walk into the enemy and attack like all monsters do. The reason cutters aren't good in lockdown is because each hit activates invincibility frames, plus most people have strong normal damage resistance. If you've ever laid waste to someone in lockdown who is shocked you'll see how amazing cutters are against a target with no invincibility frames. I say this as someone who usually is a recon in full valkyrie with a DVS, so no damage boosts. That shock is amazing.

The reason the normal damage weapons vs a specific monster type do not work as intended is because normal damage does 100% damage, but specialized damage does something like 150% damage. This means that, with a maximum damage boost, normal damage can't even reach the damage specialized damage can do.
These weapons are not good at doing what they are specialized to do, so in changing their damage types, you are specializing them to take out that one enemy while also making them viable against other enemies. You lose against 2 families, but if you're going for a beast specialization loadout then a wild hunting blade will suffice the beast end quite nicely. Besides, you shouldn't ever have two weapons of the same damage type at the same time unless one of them is a split damage sword or you're using normal weapons.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 16:16
#6
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Fangel
"This means that, with a maximum damage boost, normal damage can't even reach the damage specialized damage can do." - I was suggesting this be changed. The specialist weapons should be specialist to that monster type but WHB shouldn't suffer it's damage vs constructs or slimes because of that. Nor should it be great for fiends. So rather than making it piercing, those damage boosts should be altered so they are actual worth it.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 14:11
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
How do I put it...

Certain weapons are specialized for certain enemies, but we still use them regardless. Argent Peacemaker is specialized against undead, yet people use it on constructs and other enemies too. This is because the damage type means you actually want to use the weapon. Normal damage is more or less a filler damage type until you reach tier 2 at the very least, as that's when damage types start to matter a lot more.

I'll put it this way: I perform better with a split damage sword and a gun that does a different kind of damage than I do with a normal damage sword and a normal damage gun. As of right now I have a cutter-based sword. There is almost no situation that I would want to make the other cutter except for "poison beast levels". Beasts aren't even that hard, thus specializing against them and only them is sort of... Weird.

However, I want to bring up that players complain about fiends a lot. Fiends require you to attack with a fast weapon a lot to prevent them from attacking. A cutter is a great sword to use against fiends (I've used my DVS a bunch against them) to great success. A piercing themed cutter would be something I would jump on immediately, as it's something I would use in more than just one scenario.

I also want to bring up that for both slimes and constructs, heavier and slower weapons that control them typically work better. These enemies are slow and attack slowly, and a fast weapon doesn't flinch them in time, thus you get hit. I mean, any player can make any weapon work in any scenario, but this is a blanket statement about how most players would use a cutter(like any other sword... walk up to the enemy and click).

A piercing cutter with a beast bonus would be phenomenal. It would directly compete with the flourish, making the flourish more of a "heavy" sword in comparison. It also brings cutters to have a more niche use, and still leaves the "normal damage variant" alive and well in the DVS.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 18:29
#8
Sir-Shadow-Striker's picture
Sir-Shadow-Striker
Cutter's are our friends

DVS is fine, it probably needs more poison chance as Fangel suggested, as for Flourish charge attack, I have no problem eviscerating wolvers with it. For WHB, I think they need to ditch the family bonus; in my experience, those bonuses don't do much extra damage. Piercing damage would make it a viable choice.
As for making a Shadow cutter, this makes me think back to my fire/shadow axe idea. Just do that with a cutter and it would be great.
Charge attacks on the cutter need to either:
(a) allow the player to aim the attack constantly while the charge is in effect
(b) be shield cancel-able
or (c) be rethought entirely

Just my thoughts.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 14:44
#9
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Sir-Shadow-Striker

"Cutter's are our friends" - Yes. Yes they are.

"DVS is fine, it probably needs more poison chance as Fangel suggested" - I suggested that in reply #2. xD

"For WHB, I think they need to ditch the family bonus; in my experience, those bonuses don't do much extra damage." - Hence my suggestion is that, rather than making it deal pierce they change effect of family bonus so that it DOES do extra damage (enough to make it a useful thing to have on a weapon).

"(a) allow the player to aim the attack constantly while the charge is in effect
(b) be shield cancel-able" - I don't see 'a' and 'b' as fixing the charge at all. The only semi useful part of the two of them is that 'b' would mean you get hit less, but the charge doesn't only need that. It also needs to actually hurt an enemy.

@Fangel

"Beasts aren't even that hard, thus specializing against them and only them is sort of... Weird." - Very true.

"A cutter is a great sword to use against fiends" - This seems more of a task for Winmillion. Maybe let it have a 5* weapon with damage vs fiend (once again, damage bonuses need to have some meaning if we don't want it to be a pointless addition to the game). Strikers are good for feinds but Spurs are better.

Altogether I stand by my original points of; DVS needs more poison chance AND damage bonus needs to have meaning (ever see someone cheer about getting a damage bonus UV?).

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 00:44
#10
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle
The easiest way to make the

The easiest way to make the charge worth using is to make the hits have consistent interruption ability. Doing that would make the weapon succeed in it's intended use, a mobile weapon (the charge gives out no MSD while charging) for hit-and-run tactics and for taking out priority targets (such as menders).

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 09:09
#11
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Almond-Riddle

"(the charge gives out no MSD while charging)"
- No, but it does make you stand still while launching the charge for alot longer than most weapons (if not, all). Maybe make it's attacks launch faster during the charge?

"The easiest way to make the charge worth using is to make the hits have consistent interruption ability"
- I still don't see it as all that useful. Poison boost! :D

Thu, 02/12/2015 - 15:40
#12
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Ummm

"The easiest way to make the charge worth using is to make the hits have consistent interruption ability"
- I still don't see it as all that useful. Poison boost! :D

Extra interruption would be, like, the saving grace of that charge attack. The reason so many people are drawn away from the charge is because you're in the enemy's face and they can still attack. Making them less likely/able to attack makes the charge much safer/viable for those who can't bait an enemy into attacking.

Thu, 02/12/2015 - 18:36
#13
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

With half-decent timing you won't get hit by the enemy you use it on. The only things that really harm you in that situation is the other enemies, so let's not make it so that you get surrounded for the sake of possibly not killing an enemy.
When you use the charge attack you surely dodge and then launch the attack before they can respond, others you are asking to be hit and I don't think players should be rewarded for being too lazy to dodge before using the charge.
However, the charge cannot kill in PVP against anyone decent as they will just move out of the way, giving a better poison chance means that you MIGHT actually be able to get some decent damage in if you do manage to hit one or two of the attacks before they move (because it does have SOME effect on holding things in place).

Sat, 02/14/2015 - 12:10
#14
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle
@Chaos

"With half-decent timing you won't get hit by the enemy you use it on."
"When you use the charge attack you surely dodge and then launch the attack before they can respond"

Both statements are false. Even with the best timing in the world and Maximum ASI, the charge attack will not fully connect with well over 70% of the monsters in the game. Unless the charge attack could pin them down, they will literally just move away or simply attack you while you're in the middle of your charge. Keeping the charge as is, you can barely even use them against the current roster of monsters in a 1 vs. 1 setting.

"I don't think players should be rewarded for being too lazy to dodge before using the charge."

Though I agree with the above statement, it has nothing to do with the current problem, no weapon rewards the player for not dodging before using it's charge. Including all the other swords that have high flinch rate on their charge attacks, why should the cutters be any different?

PvP would be opening a whole new can of worms. A lot of the weapons simply aren't balanced for PvP, since SK started off as a purely PvE game. You'd have to completely rebuild Cutters from the ground up to make it viable for PvP (the same can be said for a lot of other weapons though).

Sat, 02/14/2015 - 18:34
#15
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Almond-Riddle

The only monsters I ever have trouble with are Gremlins Thwackers and Mecha Knights. Apart from that the Striker charge is easy to launch without expecting to get hit. You just have to time your attack. I want more poison to be able to deal with the other two mobs it has trouble with. Plus it has one of the lowest damages in the game so deserves something to give it a boost, poison is the perfect status for that but it is almost NEVER inflicted.

"Both statements are false."
- I find them true to me, and surely I'm nowhere near perfect with the weapon, so why can I carry something out yet it is "false" to everyone else?

"(the same can be said for a lot of other weapons though)."
- IMO the cutter charge is the worst charge attack in LD. Some other weapons are un-hittable with their charges but none seem to leave you so open (Troika being the closest, but I'm sure you're more likely to get a kill with a Troika charge than Cutter charge). Another idea for the charge is one I posted on a previous thread; as in the charge attack lands in a fair amount of time, rather than taking so long to launch all the attacks.

Sat, 02/14/2015 - 22:11
#16
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle
Really? I stated that you

Really? I stated that you need to get every hit to connect, including the shadow blades. All 10 hits. Everytime on anything short of Gremlin Thwackers and Mech Knights? including Lichen Colonies? Including Alpha Wolvers? Including Gorgos? Including Kats? Including Gremlin Bombers?

This all assuming that the interrupt chance doesn't proc and you're on tier 3. You can really hit all of them? fully?

Mon, 02/16/2015 - 18:28
#17
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

Alpha Wolvers are easy. Gremlin Bombers, any form of Lichen, Gorgos and Kats appear in swarms (bombers not swarming themselves, usually followed by swarms of thwackers), so interruption won't help too badly. I already said Gremlin Thwackers and Mecha Knights are difficult.
And besides, with more poison you'd kill them by the end of the combo, full hits won't be as necessary.

Tue, 02/17/2015 - 14:27
#18
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Gah...

The cutter charge is only bad because its short range can only hit one target at a time, and it roots you in place for a long amount of time. The autoguns have a similar problem (or did, at least) except they don't have you frozen in place right in front of your target, who in turn is smacking you while the charge is let loose or while you're reloading.

However, if you know that you use it to your advantage. However, this attack won't work on all enemies, because they'll just turn around and smack you.

The dread venom striker needs interruption over a higher poison chance, especially on its charge attack. Having to be in close proximity for so long without interrupting your enemy's attack will make you lose health you were planning on keeping. Having a higher poison chance means you'll deal a bit more damage, but still get hit in the face. With interruption, you won't get hit in the face but hit them a few times afterwards.
I'm not talking about you personally, Chaos-Mist. I'm talking about the use of this item as a whole.

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