Why I don't think the brandishes are actually that strong
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 09:43
They do a lot of things well, but they don't do anything best.
They do high damage over an area on their normal hits, but gran faust/divine avenger cover more area to hit more enemies faster while weapons like grim repeater, warmaster rocket hammer, and blitz needle hit for more damage to a single enemy faster.
Their charge does a fairly massive amount of damage, but a well placed alchemer shot does around the same to one enemy from afar and a well placed bomb is safer to drop and more damaging given a large number of enemies hit. Iron slug's charge is also somewhat superior to brandish charges, given its range, piercing capabilities, and access to Seerus's mask.
So lets say you're up against an undead themed compounds. Bringing voltaic tempest + dark briar barrage + arcana will give you perfect coverage for the minis, any grievers that spawn, and a means of quickly finishing most enemies via arcana. This loadout gives you some sort of vaguely best option for everything you encounter. If you brought combuster, then you're likely going to want to bring other weapons to extend combuster's capabilities, say a bomb to group the minis or a gun to add to your range, or an autogun to kill that one big enemy.. all things that replace something that combuster was doing for you- which raises the question as to why you even need combuster, if what it gives you is being extended by various other weapons to the point of becoming unnecessary anyway.
They aren't bad weapons as they give you a fast track towards becoming self sufficient and crafting other gear, but they aren't so powerful that they outclass all other weapons either, and eventually become somewhat obsolete as you patch up all of the various holes in your gear.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 10:52
#2
I definitely agree on that- it's part of why they're such a great fast track towards building bigger and better loadouts.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 11:27
#3
first post: agree
You raise a lot of good points, and I'm always glad to see some non-orthodox thinking.
Ease of use is a big part of the attraction. It factors into my recommendations to novice players all of the time.
A lot of players dislike "tough" levels such as compounds, devilite offices, and greaver arenas because these players are overly reliant on certain tactics (brandish charges, pulsar shots) and unaware of other tactics (bombs, flourish first strokes). Based on your posts here and in earlier threads, I suspect that you agree? Insofar as it raises awareness of other tactics, your thread may be useful.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 11:27
#4
second post: disagree
But I think that your first line hits the nail on the head, in a way that you might not realize. To paraphrase it, adding two extra words for emphasis:
Brandishes don't do anything best, but they do a WHOLE lot of things REALLY well.
Basically, as long as you have room to maneuver, very few enemies can even touch you. Brandishes let you maneuver at full speed, unlike DA/GF. Then you release a charge, knocking your enemies away and spreading status to boot. So brandishes are defensively excellent, which is really attractive to novice players, while being offensively almost-excellent.
For example, mecha knights are nasty, right? You just Combuster-charge them. This makes most of Ghosts in the Machine trivial. (I thought this was obvious, but in a recent thread one of our veteran forumers had never imagined brandish-charging mecha knights, and thought it was crazy.)
Yes, the new magnuses have similar charges, but the knockback is a really important difference. Even if you are an expert player, it takes some time to lure the enemies into facing you, and that delay slows your damage output.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 11:43
#5
I suppose the argument is particularly centered around the magnitude of the word "REALLY" in that statement. When you don't have a ton of weapons getting one that does a WHOLE lot of things REALLY well is amazing, but when you have a lot of weapons that do certain things REALLY REALLY REALLY well, as in orders of magnitude better, the luster of weapons that do many many things begins to wear off. Take for example spreading shock status- voltedge can do that REALLY well, but not nearly as well as voltaic tempest... Or dealing high shadow damage in an area- Acheron can do that REALLY well, but dark retribution is an absolute monster at it.
I still think they're certainly worth crafting and using, I'm just kind of peeved that players get hung up on them forever and end up with no gear variety and insane UVs on their brandishes even when they'd be better off exploring their options a bit.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 13:19
#6
I think you may be right. I'd like to find out more, but I'm a swords guy and being a gamepad player, I'll never be very good at gunning and being someone who doesn't enjoy bombs, I'll never become very good at bombing either. Instead, I've devoted a lot of my time to becoming really good at using swords in this game.
I wish I could say I was unique but in reality I'm like most players. I bring a Brandish or two and some utilities to support it. What I have done to set myself aside from the masses is practice it a lot beyond just charge spamming. When you get good at micromanagement of enemy positions, being careful with your shield bump, positioning yourself properly, midstepping on every combo for multihits, et cetera, there's a lot of depth to them.
All in all I think that
- Brandishes are very good for pretty much everyone save for very late game veterans such as ourselves, who have access to almost every weapon in the game and can craft one with a good UV in a day or two if we so wish.
- While they're seemingly shallow, there's a lot of depth to being as good as possible with a Brandish, probably moreso than weapons which are seemingly harder to use than Brandishes if we disregard the idea of a weak weapon being hard to use just because it's weak e.g. Leviathan Blade, which is mechanically more or less the same except for the charge except it's weaker and slower.
- Fehzor is such a hipster that she probably wrote this on a Mac while sitting at a Starbucks. Also she has a beard. Her usage of swords as utilities and bombs and guns as damage dealers as opposed to the other way around is an increasingly uncommon way of thinking nowadays and even a while back I wouldn't say it was very common. Most hipsters would limit themselves to just bombs or underpowered/unpopular weapons overall, but Fehzor has given pretty much everything a shot.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 14:38
#7
those examples
I agree that "REALLY" is vague and hides a lot of the disagreement. So I'll try to stick to more concrete points.
The "orders of magnitude" is quite an exaggeration, if you truly mean powers of 10. Perhaps you don't.
Dark Retribution is very powerful. But suppose that there are gremlin menders in the fight. Unless you do something to suppress the healing, DR kills them and the monsters around them slowly. So you have to let them shield, kite some monsters away, kill those monsters, come back, kill the menders slowly, etc. In contrast, an Acheron charge (or Obsidian Edge, Umbra, Grim, Callahan, ...) can kill one or both menders instantly. Then you kill the rest of the monsters. Maybe I'm bad with DR --- despite using it frequently --- but I find Acheron faster in this common scenario.
Yes, a haze bomb is better than a brandish at spreading status. And a blast bomb is better at knockback. And DR outputs more DPS against a crowd, say. But while these functions are orthogonal to one another, there is no reason why a tactical situation shouldn't warrant a combination of them. What if I examine the fight and say to myself, "Ideally now I would inflict a bunch of damage while knocking these monsters out of my face. And some status would be nice of course." That goal may seem contrived, but actually it is quite typical, and a brandish fulfills it better than DR or a haze bomb, and often better than a blast bomb too.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 14:40
#8
I am going to disagree with
I am going to disagree with this thread. I think brandishes are strong, because they have the best balance of DPS vs. Area of Effect.
"gran faust/divine avenger cover more area to hit more enemies faster"
- Too vague to be a valid argument. Brandish charge beats DA/GF in all situations anyways.
"weapons like grim repeater, warmaster rocket hammer, and blitz needle hit for more damage to a single enemy faster."
- Now this point is true. Blitz needle vs. Brandishes against skellies, blitz wins all the time. WRH? Beats brandishes. Good point.
"Their charge does a fairly massive amount of damage, but a well placed alchemer shot does around the same to one enemy from afar"
- Dmg to a single enemy is not better than good dmg to a large number of enemies...this point works against your argument.
"a well placed bomb is safer to drop and more damaging given a large number of enemies hit"
- For one explosion, yeah. After that, no. DBB is only exception since it has no significant KB, but it can't work standalone.
"Iron slug's charge is also somewhat superior to brandish charges, given its range, piercing capabilities, and access to Seerus's mask."
- Perhaps your best point. IS charge is better than brandish charge since it is able to affect enemies over such a huge range, and when worked properly can ohko a group of remlins in D&N. Granted, the Acheron can do the same, but not as easily.
Your comparison to the compound arena...not sure about that. I haven't come across ANY swarm of monsters that the combuster cannot handle with ease. (Worst would be fire wolvers, but even then it is fine due to split damage). Not sure why anyone would want to spend time heating more weapons than just a combuster anyways....
"They aren't bad weapons as they give you a fast track towards becoming self sufficient and crafting other gear, but they aren't so powerful that they outclass all other weapons either, and eventually become somewhat obsolete as you patch up all of the various holes in your gear."
- Combuster. Acheron. Blitz Needle. Chaos set. Try to find another loadout that is better than this one in all situations. (And no, saying this is "boring" is not sufficient, though this set would be boring as f).
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 15:39
#9
I suppose I have no say in this but, I do have a couple pennies.
Rather than using a Brandish for its absolutely astounding damage or its support role that it can fill, there's also the point of using it for consistency. Not consistency in terms of "it can do this over and over", but consistency as in, in any situation you throw it in, it will excel. In contrast to your argument of "all things that replace something that combuster was doing for you- which raises the question as to why you even need combuster", there's also the argument of why bring all those things when you can just bring Combuster. Ignoring the fact that some people are limited by open Weapon slots or major access to many crafting possibilities, a Brandish effectively gives you many weapons in one, allowing you to patch other small niches that Brandishes don't do well on their own. Brandishes also have amazing synergy with some weapons that other weapons simply can not match; Electron Vortex paired with a Voltedge can be a prime example here, and the synergy these two weapons have together is undeniable.
Continuing along with that subject, to use Bopp's words (though they may not intentionally convey this meaning), "Even if you are an expert player, it takes some time to lure the enemies into facing you, and that delay slows your damage output."
This is a significant part of a Brandish's viability, especially when Brandishes can play the patience game just as well as any other weapon. Brandishes can be used at almost any moment freely, so while their damage may be lacking in comparison to a Blitz charge, an Alchemer ricochet or, hell, even a solid Triglav or Sudaruska slam, they still can consistently retain comparable or even higher DPS against anything besides a single target. I'd honestly love to be proven wrong here with some statistics because I honestly can't see very many occasions where a Brandish is seriously outperformed to a point where there's no use in bringing one because you have four other superior choices; from the top of my head, the only things I can think of is using guns for the Tortodrone event and using bombs/guns for Grinchlin Assault.
You mentioned an Undead-themed Compound as an example where a bringing a Brandish isn't the best option; but the loadout you listed is just one of many efficient loadouts that could be used for that Compound-- you could, for example, bring a Vortex bomb along with a Brandish/Troika in order to deal with the minis as well as having more DPS and options than the Arcana, and still devote your third slot to DBB. There may also be times where you couldn't charge a bomb (I'm assuming a mist/vortex bomb here), and a Brandish allows you to basically give yourself space, moreso than an Arcana could. In fact, in the loadout you listed, you could very well add Combuster as your fourth weapon to fill in the one or two niches that those weapons don't cover (although since it's a Compound, those two niches shouldn't exist, but there's always the possibility). Rather than building a loadout that takes on everything you should encounter effectively, there's also the choice of building something around a core then patching up any small issues it has, allowing you to take on everything you could encounter effectively. Here's a quick thought process: Combuster works everywhere but might have problems with minis- add a Mist/Vortex bomb. What about the Greavers that may swarm you? DBB takes care of those. Anything else? Maybe problems with Healers or Howlitzers you can't reach- bring a Poison Gun perhaps, or Maskeraith and a strong Elemental gun, or Drakon and a Venom Veiler. Against anything else you find there, Combuster would perform spectacularly if not beyond expectations, luckily you shouldn't find much else there, but if you do, you have your Combuster with you.
Really all I'm saying is, the pros for a Brandish far outweigh the cons, on a level that very few if any other weapons can possibly hope to match. The fact that they consistently and constantly provide almost the best, effectively makes them the best. In a perfect world where there's no lag and no randomness, this wouldn't be the case, but this isn't a perfect world and the more consistent option in the end is usually the best option. Additionally, their synergy with certain items is outstanding, and giving up two weapon slots for weapons that synergise well usually gives you more options than you lose.
But perhaps I've just lost track of everything.
EDIT (lots and lots):
@Kneeanderthal
"- Combuster. Acheron. Blitz Needle. Chaos set. Try to find another loadout that is better than this one in all situations. (And no, saying this is "boring" is not sufficient, though this set would be boring as f)."
Easy, Black Kat Cowl, Black Kat Raiment, Acheron, Warmaster Rocket Hammer, Barbarous Thorn Blade, Valiance/Iron Slug. Chaos set is uselessly nerfing yourself when Black Kat gives you a universal Attack Up Max as well as MSI Med, having less bad resistances, having resistance/immunity to Freeze, and the more useful Shadow over Elemental defense. Just UV the CTR and you're good. In fact, no need to UV the CTR, they're fast enough on their own. Acheron is on-point, but Warmaster Rocket Hammer could far exceed Combuster in terms of DPS both single-target and against groups while not being limited against Oilers. Barbarous Thorn Blade would make up for Acheron's lack of usefulness (haha, yeah) against enemies resistant to Shadow by giving you a viable AoE alternative while also giving you a relevant damage type. Valiance and Iron Slug are up for debate, they'd be used for long-range, with Valiance being superior in the defensive game and Iron Slug being superior in the offensive game. Alternatively, Volcanic Pepperbox if you still wanted to use an autogun for outrageous damage, but still retaining its usefulness against all enemy types, especially ones you can't reach. Supernova also exists. Acheron could very easily be replaced by Dark Retribution, but for the sake of this I believe Acheron is just useful in more situations, which is the important part here. Likewise, the same goes for Barbarous Thorn Blade and Dark Briar Barrage. You also lack a Sprite, but I'm just going to assume Maskeraith with MSI Med.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 16:21
#10
The compounds argument could have been solved using a brandish but didn't have to be. I specifically chose an undead compound because of how the grave scarabs scatter, however. Voltaic tempest and dark briar would be a much safer alternative to the brandish + vortex combination.. and while brandishes can counter many of the clusters that spawn, the infinitely spawning variants can be thinned extremely quickly using bombs.
Kneeandrethal
Too vague to be a valid argument. Brandish charge beats DA/GF in all situations anyways.
DA's charge has the potential to do more damage, while DA/GF cover more area on their normal hits as I said. Comparing their normal hits to the brandishes charge is unfair- you can't always just magically have a charge and you might not always want to bring charge time reduction; being able to slap many enemies around quickly can be quite helpful. Warmaster rocket hammer's first hit is even more absurdly strong in this regard, that it can hit multiple enemies -and- out damage against a single target.
- Combuster. Acheron. Blitz Needle. Chaos set. Try to find another loadout that is better than this one in all situations. (And no, saying this is "boring" is not sufficient, though this set would be boring as f).
The thing is that it doesn't have to be better in all situations, just in a few that routinely show up.
But if I had to- Dark Retribution, Dread Venom Striker, Omegafist (elemental tortofist), chaos set (or UVs + black kat), maskeraith@deadly shadow cloak.
Dibsville
There isn't a necessarily a need to fall back on brandishes though. You mention grinchlin assault and the tortodrones- which are two great examples of brandishes being worse choices. These missions share a common theme; they lack vitapods and make surviving a chore, while requiring huge amounts of damage. The brandishes can play the waiting game, but they aren't nearly as safe as other weapons, and they can't deal enough single target damage quickly enough. When the going gets tougher, brandishes start to lose their luster and players wipe like you wouldn't believe because they haven't learned to fall back on other weapons well enough.
When tortodrones first came out, falling back on hail driver was huge for me. Building a loadout around it proved considerably more effective than building a loadout around glacius, or any other brandish for that matter.
The synergy with vortexes is good but also more a merit of the vortex than the brandish, as Zeddy pointed out to me once, tons of things have great synergy with vortex bombs, iron slug, dark retribution, polaris, triglav.
Bopp
I'm running short on time, so this is going to be brief and imperfect-
There are a lot of weapons that solve the mender situation, many of which considerably better than acheron. Venom veilor hard counters menders, and combined with dark retribution is nigh unstoppable. Tons of other shadow weapons can also be used just as effectively to stop the mender situation, many of which are ranged or provide some form of safety that acheron lacks. Umbra driver, iron slug and winter grave are prime examples of this, while gorgofist's normal hits can get the job done alongside maskeraith's deadly shadow cloak and then turn around to provide much better damage over an area.
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 16:58
#11
@Fehzor
"When the going gets tougher, brandishes start to lose their luster and players wipe"
Very true, but like I mentioned, the only two areas I can think of where this is relevant is Grinchlin Assault (where you are overwhelmed constantly and Brandish falls behind bombs, guns, or even Gran Faust and Warmaster Rocket Hammer, all of which are better there) and the Tortodrones (where Brandishes are literal suicide; and I can't even say it's because swords in general are bad for this mission, because Leviathan Blade is an absolute monster here). I agree here, but realistically, that is just two event missions and are special exceptions; the next-hardest comparable things, arguably Shadow Lairs, are still just fodder for Brandishes.
"When tortodrones first came out, falling back on hail driver was huge for me. Building a loadout around it proved considerably more effective than building a loadout around glacius, or any other brandish for that matter."
Me as well; personally, I started out with Voltedge, saw that failed, swapped to Blitz, saw that it was too unsafe, moved over to Leviathan Blade (which works well! but not well enough), and eventually settled on just switch-shooting Hail Driver and Storm Driver-- and I have to say, it feels great beating Elite Tortodrones and still having my Emergency Revive left, especially when my teammates Spark like five times each. But this relates back to when I said "there's also the choice of building something around a core then patching up any small issues it has, allowing you to take on everything you could encounter effectively". This situation is simply taking a good all-around starting weapon (in this case Hail Driver) and building on it to fill in the gaps (perhaps Flourish for the Fiends and Silkwings, Valiance and now Arcana for its solid relevant damage while staying safe and not having the slow bullet speeds of Pulsars, etc). In 99% of cases, that "all around" weapon might as well be a Brandish, but again, Grinchlin Assault and the Tortodrones are both very obvious glaring exceptions; but also again, these are the only two situations where I can honestly say that "a Brandish is seriously outperformed to a point where there's no use in bringing one because you have four other superior choices", and two very specific situations that are both limited-time events are not enough to show for.
"The synergy with vortexes is good but also more a merit of the vortex than the brandish, as Zeddy pointed out to me once, tons of things have great synergy with vortex bombs, iron slug, dark retribution, polaris, triglav."
Also true, but it's much more noticeable when pairing, say, Electron Vortex, with another Shock weapon-- they just synergise much more effectively than others, and with only four real possible choices to pair Electron Vortex with, Voltedge takes the cake. Pairing it with Voltaic Tempest is counter-productive, pairing it with Storm Driver works but only against part of the group stuck in the Vortex, meaning you're losing out on possible damage. Polaris works but sometimes pushes enemies out and its DPS is good, but nothing special. But in comparison, Voltedge dishes out devastating damage while keeping the enemies in the Vortex like the other three weapons would; it's just the most efficient weapon to pair with EV, though maybe not the best.
Now if only we had a certain Third Troika....
Mi, 08/26/2015 - 17:49
#12
menders
Yes, many weapons can handle menders. I mentioned four in my post, other than Acheron. They kill menders about as well as Acheron, depending on the tactical situation.
I've tried the combination of Dark Retribution with Venom Veiler many times. I'm often solo with only two weapon slots, and haze bombs are depressing when I'm solo. But it works, though seemingly slower than Acheron.
Maybe a good test would be a level that I've never seen. If I know the mender spawn points, then I can position myself there with a big charge (Acheron, Obisidian Edge, Umbra, ...) and kill them immediately. Perhaps this gives unfair advantage to weapons like Acheron.
Do, 08/27/2015 - 06:03
#13
......
Low
Skill
Ceiling
Di, 09/01/2015 - 17:06
#14
with my shallow point of view.
@Kneeanderthal: Actually, DA charge would be the best for beating Roarmulus Twins, the damage is enough to make them goes to next phase and the animation recovery is pretty quick
@Bopp: never really have problem with menders while using Dark Retribution alone (assuming the enemies around are mostly gremlins/jellies). It just need to be stacked up more in narrow areas, jelly somewhat always stay in place, gremlin keeps getting knocked, and the damage numbers just keep flying, even area mend wouldn't deter the dps too much. I spam this at grinchlin assault boss and it's "working". (cause my elite nub-ness always invite unneccesary problems) As far as I remember, I have problems only with mecha knights as they could shield and forces me to move in wider area, in this case, I just start to use venom veiler combination.
@Dibsville: I never think oilers is the combuster limit. I just keep spamming charge the hell outta them, they never reached me anyway. Toxoils, however, are just pain when they just dash around when I am stuck with combuster (most unlikely, unless I feel suicidal on that mission).
@Fehzor: Just wanted to point out some perks of brandish compared to others. The brandish charge received a huge boost from vortex because it connects more targets (like from 2 - 3 to 8 potential monsters) while autoguns, and alchemers aren't. Also, shock effect get a bit more bonus from vortex. The strongest brandish dps combo, charge -> first swing -> final swing (hard to apply with combuster unfortunately) generate 6 hits (those attacks + 3 explosions) only needs little setup (just keep few distance from the target) while magnus charge take a lot more attention due to the questionable mechanic.
*still hates compound level keeps giving me so little treasure boxes*
Mi, 09/02/2015 - 06:23
#15
There are good arguments to be made for quite a number of other weapons to be used instead for vortex-smashing.
Sudaruska = sword + normal damage, can hit all enemy types inside vortex
Iron slug = gun + normal damage, hits at a range and is somewhat safer
Mixmaster = can spawn bullets inside of the vortex in such a way that hits things outside of them
Gran Faust/Divine Avenger = can hit more enemies with normal hits; no need to charge up first and can still do heavy damage to lots of enemies inside
Dark Retribution = high sustained DPS, sets itself up for more combos
But all of these have something in common- when the dust settles and the brief moment of smashing the vortex is over with, you aren't stuck using a brandish. Instead, you are given whatever else you used.. So if you're fighting the red roarmulus twins and you have DA instead of combuster, you now have DA to kill the boss in record time as well as the dead vortex'd enemies.
This really ties back to my previous rebuttal of the vortex argument- the vortex is the good weapon, not the brandish- even if the brandish does get the job of vortex-smashing done quite well.
Mi, 09/02/2015 - 09:31
#16
Iron slug = gun + normal damage, hits at a range and is somewhat safer
The sheer brutality of this combination. Iron Slug with double attack buff (without even using damage bonuses) can output 6000+ damage on a group of vortex'd enemies.
Brandishes have a very low skill ceiling... which is probably the most attractive feature of this weapon. It takes little effort to fight enemies since it is either point and aim or combo spam to win. Bombs, DA/GF, Alchemers, Magnus, WMRH, and even Autoguns have a higher skill ceiling......