Sudaruska & Divine Avenger
Sa, 08/31/2019 - 07:38
I've used the Sudaruska as my first, and main weapons since I started the game many years ago.
I don't understand why the Divine Avenger has a faster melee speed and more damage compared to the Sudaruska (and all it's variants are the same)
These heavy swords are probably the slowest in the game, the Sudaruska's charge does have a decent AoE, but as it may not look like, so does the Divine Avenger's swing during it's charge, but has less "range" in the initial swing since the Sudaruska gets thrown forward. The Divine Avenger's charge deals slightly less damage than the Sudaruska, but with the projectiles it throws out, it can easily deal a bit more damage.
On top of being faster and dealing more damage, the Divine Avenger also deals some amount of Elemental Damage, which makes it even better against enemies that take + elemental. The Divine Avenger would deal less damage against Beast and Gremlin types, but it deals much more towards two other factions.
As much as I'd want to keep using my Sudaruska and Triglav, I can't help but feel bad that I could be handling much better with a slightly faster and higher damage weapon that works the same.
When I first started I wanted to stay spoiler free and didn't look up a single thing about the game, I liked the knockback of the Heavy Hatchet and thought it'd help protect me early on, the Sudaruska was the easiest available weapon to craft after. I didn't compare the Gran Faust in this since I'm unsure how much damage it deals in the long run with it's much faster swing speed and much less damage than the other swords.
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also they look cooler than the sealed sword line
come to think of it, sealed sword line hasn't gotten reskins but that's probably because they're bought with tokens from a boss or aren't from hall of heros.
I am caught up with using my normal damage weapons more often since I like them more and I'd feel bad if I crafted more gear and used them over my normal damage, rendering them fairly "useless" compared to weapons with different damage types that deal more damage to specific factions. This is my own problem and choice though.
I'd much rather use my CTR H Triglav and Amputator over my other crafted weapons, as I have many.
amputator also looks way cooler than the basic brandish line
but that's also just my opinion y'know
I also wonder if it's more worth using my CTR H Amputator over an ASI med Combuster, spamming charges against Undead & Construct enemies without the use of CTR Armor, perks or trinkets. I should max my Combuster since it is only level 5 compared to my maxed Amputator, and currently it does not deal all that much more damage tham my Amputator
So, 09/01/2019 - 21:43
#2
@Bopp
"Having more damage is a clear design choice"
Naw, that's just split damage being broiken again. Compare and contrast elemental blasters vs normal damage blaster. Do they get more damage for their specializations? Nope, only vs effective targets.
Also interesting to compare and contrast is Kamarin and Sealed Sword, which have practically identical damage tables.
The attack speed makes enough sense, given how devastating Troika charge is, and would be okay with it if Sealed wasn't both stronger and faster.
One last compare and contrast: Final Flourish vs Acheron against beasts. I'm sure you know already.
So, 09/01/2019 - 23:19
#3
An Alternative line of thought
The slowness of the troika swing puts "attack" blocks in front of your character for a bit longer. So, compared to a sealed, your slow swinging troika will theoretically hit more mobs that walk into your weapon swing. The distinction is actually more relevant than you realize, especially on fights with lots of mobs and less room.
Now, keep in mind that the 'shield>next weapon>previous weapon' animation time is the same for all weapons. So you can actually keep LOTS of enemies at bay with a double switching troika. Picture it like you are making yourself immune to approach for 0.4 seconds every 0.7 secs it takes to repeatedly execute that combo.
The charge attack is honestly kinda nice. I'd use that more because you can keep your distance while building it up and then unleash it for the split second that you engage.
Be rid of the thought that the DA is better than your chosen Sudaruska. End of the day, it is the player that dictates his character's effectiveness. You dont give yourself enough credit which you probably deserve.
Mo, 09/02/2019 - 05:44
#4
responses
Sir-Pandabear:
Here's my suspicion. For all the imbalance in this game, Nick et al. knew how the damage calculations work. They specifically chose split damage to make up for the fact that swords are inherently dangerous compared to guns and bombs. They specifically made WRH pure elemental because the attack style was too powerful (and the other OCH items were also so good). Same for the piercing swords, which had the killer combination of long-and-not-slow, until Three Rings nerfed the length for the sake of Lockdown.
I understand the point about non-normal Blasters. The game has not been consistent about whether normal weapons should equal specialized weapons against neutral targets. Were we to tweak the weapons to make them consistent, I'm not sure where the balance would be set. (Acheron is clearly out of balance, like Chaos and Black Kat.)
Crazy-Horse:
You are right that the timing of the strokes is subtle and important. I first noticed this when I got a lot of ASI. It changed how I combo against jellies. I would knock them out of range, take my second stroke though thin air, then get hit as they re-entered my range. So, just as the slowness of Troikas can be considered an advantage, so can low ASI. (But I consider the disadvantages --- long exposure to nearby attackers, low DPS, etc. --- to outweigh the advantages.)
Mo, 09/02/2019 - 06:54
#5
you guys are really grasping
you guys are really grasping at straws
troika is just bad
Mo, 09/02/2019 - 22:22
#6
@Bopp
That's a good point except where does intentionally making swords stronger leave Leviathan and Suda?
Mi, 09/04/2019 - 04:13
#7
don't understand
I've delayed responding to your post, because I don't exactly understand what you're saying. The normal swords are viable, but they're not the strongest swords, because the game rewards specialization. When a player gets motivated to specialize damage types, the normal+special swords have a small enticement over the special-only guns and bombs.
Maybe your point is that normal swords have no small enticement vs. normal guns and bombs?
Do, 09/05/2019 - 20:03
#8
There's probably something in your original argument I missed, then. I'll lay out my confusion more clearly.
Valiance does the same damage to a slime as Arcana.
Leviathan does less to a slime than Combuster.
Why are swords uniquely punished for normal damage? Leviathan is no less risky than Combuster.
Fr, 09/06/2019 - 04:16
#9
middle of post #4
Oh, I addressed that question in the middle of post #4 --- but only by saying that I don't know. :)
Part of what's confusing is the time component. Decisions that might have made sense in early 2011 (pre-launch) don't match decisions made in early 2012 (Antigua-line damage changes) or late 2014 (gunner update), because the game changes around them.
Fr, 09/06/2019 - 08:35
#10
Lets face it
We need to have bomb tennis tournaments where two players with big angry bombs shoot mobs at each other. You score a point if the mob hits or dies near your opponent.
No really, Panda my point is that the required dodging of mechanics renders the 'Damage per minute or swings per minute' argument very much moot. Its like blaming your bad shot on your poor golf club. Your weapon has a certain niche, either you enjoy playing it or you choose a weapon that fits your style better. We are discussing whether weapons are better or worse when your playing ability accounts for 95% of your success on SK. Its not really going to improve anyone's results.
Mi, 09/18/2019 - 20:38
#11
ae
i like me big swords
personally i just use it since it's what i started with, and i'd rather not lose what i like by choosing weapons that would inherently be "better" and making my old feel worthless and sluggish
i started this topic but i don't have much to say further on, i'm not very technical with things nor do i delve deep into that sort of stuff, sorry for not being able to continue any discussion from myself. i was just a little disappointed finding out that the sealed sword line does what troikas do, better.
this goes for other weapons too.
I don't understand why the Divine Avenger has a faster melee speed and more damage compared to the Sudaruska (and all it's variants are the same)
Having more damage is a clear design choice; it's how the game rewards specialization. But I don't know why the Troikas have slower strokes than the Sealed swords. I agree that it's unbalanced and makes the Troikas worse than most other swords (although fun).
I didn't compare the Gran Faust in this since I'm unsure how much damage it deals in the long run with it's much faster swing speed and much less damage than the other swords.
Gran Faust does not have faster speed in regular attacks. The displayed stat bar is simply wrong. It has been wrong since the game launched. Also it does not have less damage on regular attacks. The charge attack is very slow and launches only one projectile, so I agree that it does less damage, if we ignore the curse effect. (For detailed study of sword speed and damage, see here.)
I am caught up with using my normal damage weapons more often since I like them more and I'd feel bad if I crafted more gear and used them over my normal damage, rendering them fairly "useless" compared to weapons with different damage types that deal more damage to specific factions. This is my own problem and choice though.
Right. You are ignoring how the game incentivizes knights to use non-normal weapons. But that's a fine personal choice, if you like the Troika play style or the aesthetics. :)
I also wonder if it's more worth using my CTR H Amputator over an ASI med Combuster, spamming charges against Undead & Construct enemies without the use of CTR Armor, perks or trinkets. I should max my Combuster since it is only level 5 compared to my maxed Amputator, and currently it does not deal all that much more damage tham my Amputator
I agree that CTR is better than ASI for a knight who spams Brandish charges. It's too bad that you've sunk so many resources into Amputator. On the other hand, Chaos armor would give your Combuster CTR+5, or even CTR+6 once it's at heat level 10. Yes, I would make the switch.