From the discussion on guns in Haven.
Dasp's report on Gunslingers.
TL;DR:
Guns inflict Defense Down for up to 2 seconds, duration refreshes on hit; effects don't stack.
- The point is this:
- Gunslingers feel like they make little impact to gameplay outside of status effect procs. Guns do roughly 50% the damage that a sword would, and apply it to single targets rather than the AoE that bombs do.
In order to feel like they're actively contributing to damage, Gunslingers must cover all damage types with their guns - dealing neutral damage just doesn't cut it. Most beginner 'slingers don't understand this or can't afford this, and are stuck in mediocrity for their lifespan.
Because they provide less damage than a sword and less statuses than a bomb, Gunslingers aren't usually welcome in a party - they're considered a waste of a slot.
- Discussion in Haven:
- Guns provide single-target debuffs from range, without a lot of damage. The discussion I led explored the role of a Gunslinger as a ranged support role specializing in single-target debuffs: namely, the implementation of a gun-only Defense Down debuff. The idea is simple.
Defense Down is already a status effect in the game, but cannot be applied by any weapons. By giving guns this debuff, it'll increase not only their damage output, but the whole party's, making Gunslingers valuable in a group.
However, due to the fire rate of a gun, this debuff should not last very long. Perhaps 2 seconds at the most, meaning that Gunslingers can only debuff one target at a time reliably. Because of the nature of how debuffs work, the duration and effect does not stack but is refreshed with each consecutive hit.
It'd be nice to hear what other people think/feel about the balancing of guns. Personally, I use swords and rarely feel like I absolutely NEED to use a gun in any given situation.
"Guns inflict Defense Down for up to 2 seconds, duration refreshes on hit; effects don't stack."
This can be accomplished by just adding Poison to a gun. Poison cuts the victim's attack and defense. No gun in the game currently inflicts Poison. (And it would be REALLY nice if there was one that did, as Gunslingers are... challenged... against the Royal Jelly boss.)
Also, far as I know, "Defense Down" only exists on the Snarbolax, where it is more of an alert that he's no longer invincible. Is there a true Defense Down effect in place anywhere else?
The idea is to give a minor buff to ALL guns to give them a feel of "OOMPH" without increasing their damage output to the point that they're overpowered again.
Poison not only cuts both attack and defense, but works on random chance, and has a duration longer than 2 seconds. When you have Poison that can proc on any chance, you can give that status to a large spread of enemies in a short order of time.
The "Defense Down" suggestion rewards Gunslingers for attacking the same target successfully, but punishes them when they switch targets. It also keeps slower but stronger guns balanced, in that the "Defense Down" bonus only applies to the second shot on the same target, and expires during the reload animation.
Regarding your concerns for "Defense Down", you are correct in saying that it's only visible on Snarbolax, but lowered defenses on a status are easily available in other status effects like Shock and Poison. Clearly, it's possible to have a status effect that diminishes defenses without showing a "Defense Down" onscreen.
Regarding Royal Jelly, Gunslingers will always feel left out in any Royal Jelly fight - there are simply too many minions blocking the shots to Royal Jelly. While Swordies or Bombers can ignore the minions, Gunslingers cannot.
"...you can give that status to a large spread of enemies in a short order of time."
Well, new problem: The Alchemer series can still inflict and maintain this "Defense Down" effect to an entire swarm of foes at once with its ricochet. This is on top of the status effects it already deals. Additionally, the Antigua series' rate of fire allows it to blanket an enemy army with Defense Down as well.
And what of the magnitude of this defense decrease? Will the Proto Gun become more useful than an Autogun?
This idea only further emphasizes the two most-commonly-used guns, which weren't even focused on damage to begin with. Yes, it's helpful to the gunslingers' cause, but there's got to be an incentive to taking the less-used guns.
Hmm Hmm Hmm. I may do a lot of Gunslinger advocating on the forums but I'll also be the first to admit Guns need help in this game- and this is a rather unique and interesting suggestion for a fix. So this Debuff property would be on every gun? Or just a new line?
The key focus to balancing this system is the debuff expiring relatively quickly and requiring a refresh with each immediate shot. Missing a shot on a target loses the gunslinger this bonus. In this way, it is pointless to "blanket an enemy army with Defense Down" since you only apply the status to one target at a time.
Perhaps the Alchemer ricochet provides a bonus two targets inflicted with a debuff; but for how long? Those two bonus targets are somewhere in the swarm with no clear shot besides weak ricochets. Will all your ricocheted shots really continue to hit these two randomly hit targets to capitalize on the debuff?
This forum user thinks not.
Regarding the numbers of the debuff, since I have no game data available to me, it stands to reason that I have no clue how to answer that question. Suffice to say, it is likely to be a percental debuff, which ensures that other weapons like the Magnus will inflict even greater damage with their second hit - effectively rendering your concerns for "less-used guns" moot.
Personally, I find that term silly since there are only 5 lines of 5* guns: Alchemer, Antigua, Autogun, Blaster, and Magnus. All families of these guns enjoy regular use.
@Ozymandius
I'd suggest that this debuff be applied to ALL guns. If there were to be a new line focused on inflicting debuffs, might as well make a Toxic Alchemer and be done with it.
"Perhaps the Alchemer ricochet provides a bonus two targets inflicted with a debuff; but for how long? Those two bonus targets are somewhere in the swarm with no clear shot besides weak ricochets. Will all your ricocheted shots really continue to hit these two randomly hit targets to capitalize on the debuff?"
They don't need to. Your allies are swinging or bombing away at the swarm, too. Even if you are not getting the benefit on your lower-damage gun, they're still enjoying the full defense debuff on their higher-damage swords and bombs.
Which means an Antigua or Alchemer wielder contributes much more to the team than a Magnus or Blaster wielder.
I don't know, I think you might've hopped onto the Antigua and Alchemer bandwagon a while ago and just neglected the other guns. =)
Two things, the Magnus' large projectile is capable of hitting more than one target at once and the Blaster's firing rate is comparable to the Antigua's.
Second, while your allies are swinging or bombing away at the swarm, I believe the monsters are not standing still to be shot. In fact, due to a lot of people favoring weapons with knockback, I believe you'll be hard pressed to land your shots accurately. And even then, that's assuming you land your shots, since most enemies past T1 are capable of blocking or dodging projectiles.
Oh, also remember that there are damage types to be calculated into the mess. The debuffs are meant to complement your own personal attacks, meaning if you're not dealing a damage you're not contributing to the team. Recall that all these guns are situational. The only guns that are general all-purpose guns are the Autogun and Blaster series - so it makes sense if they're less effective than the other more specialized guns. If you're fighting Undead, the Antigua line is great. If you're fighting Construct or Undead, Alchemer. Fiends and Beasts, there's the Magnus.
Remember, Gunslingers are more than walking status-inflictions; they deal damage, too.
Also, for future posters:
While I don't mind explaining mechanics to you, I'd appreciate if you did some research on your own and approached the subject with some experience. In the process of considering problems or issues, please also think of solutions. I'd hate to insult your intelligence by assuming you can't think for yourself, haha.
I can solo JK now, but I had to craft a shadow gun with a +Dmg to slimes med. I wear shadowsun hat and armor, so the damage output is decent. Even without that, as long as you use the terrain to your advantage, slaying the JK as a gunner is not impossible. I'll see if I can post a vid of me doing it soon.
You can do some decent damage as a gunner even now, but it takes a lot of time and patience to to craft all the gear you will need. I'm remaking some of my gear now from the ground up just to have a UV added to them.
A poison gun would be really cool. Just so I could fire it into swarms of monsters when there are too many to get through to the healer.
To touch on the defense down thing, if it resembles anything like the juggling effect the callahan has on the wolves it'd be useful. I find myself not really focusing on one monster per say unless it's just me and the monster is in the corner.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm pro-gun :)
-Blueflood
"Two things, the Magnus' large projectile is capable of hitting more than one target at once and the Blaster's firing rate is comparable to the Antigua's."
The Magnus' splash damage only worsens the "multi target" effect you've been trying to argue away from.
The Blaster only has a three shot clip. The Antigua has six. Presuming you stop on bullet short of unloading your full clip to allow for shield canceling, that's two shots and five shots at a time, respectively. The Antigua therefore pumps out more than twice as many bullets per burst than the Blaster, each of which now carries a defense reduction effect.
You can bring up damage resistances, but their effect is downplayed by the very defense reduction effect you are advocating, allowing your teammates' damage bonuses to more than make up for the damage lost from the gunslinger using the wrong type. You don't want to encourage using weapons the enemy is resistant to, just because it puts the defense reduction on more easily.
I have a friend who steadfastly refuses to use swords. I compared damage numbers with him and was startled by the fact that his three-shot Blaster burst dealt barely more damage than one swipe from my Calibur. With such low base damage, the defense-reduction effect gains much more value for all team members except the Gunslinger. (The difference is so pronounced that he finally caved a little while ago and posted a thread right here in the Arsenal forum asking for sword and bomb recommendations. And that's someone who LOVES gunner characters in video games a lot more than swordsmen. When I recommended the Calibur to him starting out, I could hear the serious hesitation in his response.)
This defense-debuff idea is seriously worsening the "walking status inflictions" problem by 1) being a status infliction and 2) giving the teammates a bigger bonus than the gunslinger themselves. They dealt more damage without the debuff, and a percentage-based bonus will skew numbers even further towards non-gunners' favor.
And even in the support capacity, a defense reduction effect on one enemy at a time is simply not nearly as satisfying as having a teammate who sacrifices their direct damage altogether to plant Shivermist Busters nonstop.
Now let's say the defense reduction is something crazy high, like triple damage. Bosses are now trivialized by the presence of a gunslinger.
Okay, so maybe let's not make it that high. But now all the aforementioned problems come roaring back.
Okay, let's make the damage reduction really low, like 5%. Then it's not even addressing the problems it was meant to solve.
Let's thrust a gunslinger, complete with defense reduction effect, into a situation and compare his response with that of a swordsman or bomber:
The situation: "It's a Danger Room and all your teammates just died. You've got half a health point left. Handle it!"
Swordsman: "Okay, I'll use my sword's charged attack or knockback to defeat the enemies with hit-and-run. The sword's damage is high enough for this to work."
Bomber: "Okay, I'll kite them down with explosives. I can deal full damage to several enemies at once, clearing the room at a reasonable pace."
Gunslinger: "With nobody alive to help fight, the defense reduction from my gun is heavily devalued. I'll need to kite them down, dealing small amounts of damage at a time to a single target to maximize damage output. I hope no other enemy walks in front of my designated target or else my damage output will suffer. Maybe I should put the Magnus away, the flinch effect will make my designated targets fall to the back of the group, wasting the bonus. I should put the Autogun away too, or else the enemy will catch up and finish me off."
At least he's not dealing LESS damage than before the defense reduction ability.
This solution makes everyone else's damage better and heavily encourages group play. It's great that your idea rewards team play, but it's not great that this fails to reward solo play to nearly the same extent. I want guns to be strong, and I want gunslingers to feel strong. I want NON-gunslingers to feel that gunslingers are strong. I want this problem solved. But this solution does not look like a good answer to me, as it has only served to highlight the problems with guns to begin with: namely, the gun's poor damage and increased difficulty with solo play compared to bombs and swords.
A gunslinger should be able to stand on their own without having to rely on teammates or other weapons, just as swordsmen and bombers can.
Wow.
Actually, I find myself being the last alive and soloing arenas more often then the shield mashing sword swingers that join my party. I can solo most t3 arenas start to finish without dieing (exception being fire and shock slimes... for obvious reasons).
Here's what I usually see from all three.
Swordsmen - Hold that shield buddy, charge and swing! Got one! Oh now I'm open and swarmed because of my coo-ldown frames. Now I'm down...
Bombers- AHHHHHH!!! Run in circles with the inability to shield!!!
Gunmen- Run and fire! Backpedal, you can dodge anything!!! uh oh, enemy attacks while I'm reloading. c-c-c-c-combo breaker!
...actually I've never seen another gunner besides myself in arena. Most I see usually stop at sunset gear. Kinda depressing.
A smart gunmen would only fire up to the point of reload. Vailance 2 shots, alchemer 1 (sigh), etc. The ability to shield in between attacks, and the additional dodging speed really help. Especially in like a room full of t3 turrets.
The thing you really have to keep in mind for any character is the individuals play skill. Some are just better at some things then others.
... but any advantage you wanna give us would be fine :)
-Blueflood
we could always implement splash damage to the guns
"we could always implement splash damage to the guns"
You know, I always wanted more guns with splash damage. Currently, all bullets have a tiny blast radius (probably just as a result of the bullet's hitbox colliding with multiple enemies at once), and the Magnus series has a somewhat larger blast radius.
I figured, though, that charged gun shots ought to have extra properties like wide splash damage or more penetration. The Alchemer's charged shot can quickly apply status effects to a crowd via mass split-shot ricochets, the Autogun/Pepperbox can pull enemies towards you, and the Antigua series' final shot of the charged attack also has a penetrating shot, it's already partially in the game. It might be cool to see "charge shot utility" further expanded upon for the other gun lines. I would like to see the Blaster's charged shot have a wide blast radius, strong knockback, or both.
I like it - it's kind of reminiscent to how the Commando and Ravager roles in FFXIII acted. I was always a fan of that mechanic!