Spiral Knights - An important change to make the AH actually function like an Auction.

An important change to make the AH actually function like an Auction.

5 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:39

CrashFu

Legacy Username

With how long the AH has been out, I'm kind of disappointed that a certain issue has yet to be addressed...

Namely that it doesn't function anything like an auction. As it stands, you can do two things: you can post something with a low buy-now price at the longest duration you can afford, hope it sells, and never hope to actually get much for it. Or, you can post something with a minimum bid price close to the typical buy now price at a short period of time and never expect to get any more than the minimum bid because one person will camp the AH until the last second, place the minimum bid, and not one person will ever have any inclination to outbid them (and couldn't if they wanted to. People are somehow managing to ninja the minimum bids within seconds of the auction expiring)

You set a buy now price any higher than really-really-low, and your item will never sell. You try to start a minimum bid price at a low number, hoping that the bids will grow, and you'll just wind up selling your rare high-UV'd item for a hundred crowns. This. Is. Not. Auctioning.

Fortunately, there are two VERY simple ways to fix all of this and result in truly competitive auctioning!

The first option is to never reveal the remaining time in the auction to anyone except for the auction-poster. Prospective buyers will never know whether that bomb they're looking at will go off-auction in six seconds or two entire days. They will have no way to ninja the bids, so... they'll have to ACTUALLY BID ON IT if they want it, and the auctioner will always receive a decent price for their goods.

The second option is to automatically extend the bidding time each time a bid is placed. People can still ninja the bid, but as soon as they do, the auction time gets extended by another hour or so. So then, someone can ninja it from them. Compared to the first auction, this would be just as effective at preventing auction-ninjutsu but would potentially result in auctions dragging on for long periods of time. An auctioner who doesn't potentially want to wait a long time to receive his money could easily remedy this drawback, however, by posting a REASONABLE buy-now price.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 19:42

Rage-Knight

IMO: hiding remaining time

IMO: hiding remaining time and/or extending auction time after each bid will make auctions less reasonable and will force people to use buy it now instead, which will force a drop on buy it now prices, which will not benefit anyone - seller loses money, buyer loses ability to actually buy at "buy it now" price.

If you don't like people ninja-ing stuff before you at bid prices right before auction ends, you can:
- sit and wait till someone comes to ninja your bid and outbid them the very last moment, ninja-style
- buy it at buy it now price
- move on and forget about it, stuff happens

These AH suggestions sound like you're trying to make a SHOP out of auction house.

PS: about your concerns:
- people actually don't buy $5 products for $6 when these are available for $5, yes, it does make sense
- people pay the smallest price they can pay, surprised yet?
- people don't sit for 4 hours near AH just to ninja your bid, they just happen to see it end soon and bid on it
- people grab profit opportunity when they see one... surprised?
- with little demand and high price some stuff just never sells... surprised?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 23:20

Antistone

Legacy Username

Proxy Bidding

There actually already is an extension when a new bid is placed, but I believe it just raises the remaining time to 5 minutes. It doesn't help if you aren't personally watching when the auction expires, but if you ARE watching it means you always get a reasonable chance to respond to someone else's bid. You can't ninja the item "within seconds of the auction expiring". I had firsthand experience with this last night, when an item I was bidding on rose in price from ~400 to ~2500 after entering the "very short" time window.

Raising that to an hour means that the time that an auction ACTUALLY ends would be very unpredictable, which would be extremely inconveneint to both buyer and seller if they want to actually make use of the item/money at a specific time. Hiding the remaining time has the same problem. Both will further encourage players to use the auction house like a shop instead of an auction house.

IMHO, the obvious feature that the auction house is shamefully missing is PROXY BIDDING. Players should be able to select an item, set aside the maximum amount they're willing to pay for it, and then have the computer automatically make the minimum bid on their behalf every time the price goes up until it reaches the designated maximum, refunding any unused portion when the auction ends.

This is the information age. Unless the auction is announced in advance and all bidders are supposed to be present at the same time for the entire length of the auction, to NOT have proxy bidding is ridiculous. You are just BEGGING for sniper bids.

At present, the buyer's only options are (1) make the minimum bid and hope no one else is interested in the item, (2) make an enormously high bid, and hope that you aren't grossly overpaying AND that no one else is willing to pay as much, or (3) make sure you're watching the item when the auction expires so you can actually make counter-bids. The current system where the remaining time is vague means (3) requires more work, but the rest of the system strongly ENCOURAGES it, because it's your only realistic shot at getting the item for a fair price.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 23:42

Arctic-Fern

Which MMO has eBay-style proxy bidding?

...do we expect the average player to know how it works? That's the problem with putting such a system up in an MMO. I don't expect a 13-year-old to be able to grasp this.

I can imagine a thread entitled "Why is everyone outbidding me all the time!?"

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 00:01

NicoyaKitty

Legacy Username

People on eBay don't even

People on eBay don't even understand eBay-style proxy bidding. Back when eBay was more popular, all I ever heard was people whining about bid-sniping on eBay, cries for them to extend the auction after the last bid, etc.

I fear that even science may never provide me with sufficient quantities of face and palm to properly emote my reaction to their complaints.

Proxy bidding does encourage shilling, though. That's a bit of a downside.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 01:34

Antistone

Legacy Username

How is this hard?

I actually was introduced to proxy bidding when I was 13 and I thought it was intuitively obvious. I understood it before the person even finished the explanation. My 13-year-old sensibilities would have been offended if eBay hadn't used it.

If people can't figure it out AND are too lazy to research the details, then they can continue to bid manually and they're no worse off. You don't need to hamstring the competent players to put them on a level playing field with the fools. Trying to make the game idiot-proof is futile and only results in a sucky game.

But if proxy bidding is really too scary, I would also accept a Vickrey Auction. Which is functionally the same except that you can't see what the current bid is, so you have to actually *gasp* fill in the amount you're willing to pay, instead of deciding to go higher when you see someone has outbid you. And if any idiots should happen to try to use the AH, they will mistakenly assume it's a sealed first-price auction, and we can just let them believe that and get on with our lives.

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An important change to make the AH actually function like an Auction.