Spiral Knights - Nick says: We will be evaluating other options to obtain {shadow keys} in the future.

Nick says: We will be evaluating other options to obtain {shadow keys} in the future.

17 replies [Last post]

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 15:28

Algol-Sixty

It isn't clear to my what OOO's design goals for the shadow lairs is.

Is it something "special", so they expect people to do only a few times, enough to get the armor and not much more?

Is it something that only the most skilled players should be able to (easily) get access to?

Is it something that only the richest players should be able to {easily) get access to?

Is it something that people should be able to do regularly?

How OOO intends shadow lairs to work will greatly influence how they grant access. If a ringer could give us a hint, that would help us players give suggestions.

OK, personally, I could see shadow lairs being made to have much easier access to skilled players, but even the most skilled players not having as easy access as they have for the other bosses.

One suggestion I saw was to trade boss tokens for shadow keys. Say, 50 furmious fang tokens for a shadow key, or 10 almirian seals, or something. I think this would be better than the current paywall system, but being able to beat a T1 boss to get access to a T3+ boss doesn't seem quite right, even if you had to get many more tokens.

An idea that I've been pondering is to get another token any time you would get a gold survivor achievement, that is, completing a t3 run without having to revive. Each tier run causes 90 energy to be sunk, plus a lot of time. If it took ten tokens, then at least 900 energy would be sunk. That's less than what the was during the special, but I suspect for most T3 players, they would end up sinking two or three times that much energy trying to get those tokens.

Ok, those are two ideas to start things off. What other ideas do players have for OOO to consider?

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 16:24

Marazo

I am rich (274k crowns and

I am rich (274k crowns and 7.7k Ce) but i havent done a shadow lair yet because i dont want to use the money it would take to craft a good 5* item FROM a 2* item, with a CHANCE of getting some extra boss tokens and a chance to craft a 5* item which are mostly in line with the others (mercurial demo needs some serious buffing, crusader too, and well really, all of them, you should actually get something good...)
Its great endgame content (for now..) but most people cant even do it, and people who are good enough wont be able to do it regularly. Personally, i think the price should be SKILL, if you are good enough, then you can do it. But, you could also raise elevator prices up to 20 or something or make it so you use 100 energy right when you enter and the elevators are free.
Shadow key system is a FAIL, OOO is losing players (aka customers) because of the extreme conditions of obtaining and the bleak chance of getting to the end. I usually like to practice levels, get to know them so i can really become good. Ive done that with all the bosses (besides shadows). I might spend CE to get one if they were permanent, but im not sure if those armour sets are worth it, at this point they are for looks, but that is what costume items and accessories are for...
So, I would like either:
Cheaper silver keys
Permanent shadow keys
Better armour (i want weapons too)
How about using the shadow key to gain access to the alchemly machine? So if you fail thats not more than 1500 CE down the drain

Basically OOO, you are making a ton of money off of people failing or people continuously dishing out their own money to get awesome gear for looks
The people still in shock that this horrible idea would be put in place (like me) are either quitting the game or refusing to try them until something is done about it, cant wait till the new methods come out, better not be as much of a fail.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 16:40

Orangeo

" If a ringer could give us a

" If a ringer could give us a hint "
Nick certianaly has hinted at allot of things, new weapons, lockdown, etc. However I doubt a straight answer will appear here. I'm sad about the current key systems going, and I was going to make a topic before I saw this. My guess is they are going to see if the price goes back up after this, then do something. If key prices on the auction house hold below 100k they probabaly will leave it. If were lucky though, we'll get a post from one of those infamous purple guardians.

I'm 100% against sticking them in boss token rewards. I dislike having to loop bosses, and having to redo old content to play new content is counter productive.

"make it so you use 100 energy right when you enter and the elevators are free."
That sounds like a good idea actualy. Serves a simmilar purpose to the shadow key system, but in a different way. I vote down permenant keys though. Permenant shadow keys means that easier sections of those levels will get milked by the richest players, adding lots and lots of crowns to society and jacking up the CE price to only their benifit. It would make new players struggle even more than they already do, and decrease the amount of people who join the game.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 16:54

Nicoya-Kitty

I stand by my previous

I stand by my previous suggestion thread

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/29950

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 17:03

Algol-Sixty

you could also raise elevator

you could also raise elevator prices up to 20 or something

Ha! I made a similar suggestion earlier today and completely spaced. Thanks for bringing it up.

One advantage of just raising the elevator fees is that it removes the huge advantage of going in with as large a party as possible, thus splitting the cost of the key. Everything else in this game can be done solo, or as a party of friends, or as a PUG. There are advantages to going solo, but they aren't huge, and similarly, there are advantages with going with a party, but they aren't huge. At one time, phantoms in graveyards scaled badly, thus making them very hard for large parties. I'm glad OOO fixed the GY problem, and I think it would be good to have similar balanced choices with shadow lairs.

The huge upfront cost also tends to sucker people into the sunk cost fallacy, where having spent so much to start, they will continue to throw far more money into the run than can be rationally justify. Maybe OOO's goal is to use this kind of trick to increase revenue, but I really hope that isn't the case.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 17:11

Orangeo

"you could also raise

"you could also raise elevator prices up to 20 or something"
It's gotta be an up-front payment, to some extent, in order to prevent farming of early levels. If vannaduke cost 50 at the start for example, then people wouldn't just replay the first one or two levels. Of course, vanna has less money on him, and that's why its ok there. That's why I liked his "100 at the start" idea. Plus, If I have 100 mist, and use it all immediately as opposed from level to level, I start regenerating mist earlier, sort of. Better for revives I guess.

[edit]
Commented on nicoyas thread, feel free to enter conversation.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 17:08

Khamsin

Going in shadow lairs with a

Going in shadow lairs with a duo is too easy though.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 06:38

Wuvvums

"It's gotta be an up-front

"It's gotta be an up-front payment, to some extent, in order to prevent farming of early levels."

I don't see why we should penalize the whole player base on the count of farmers existing. Yes, people will farm. Why should this constitute a paywall to play a LEVEL of the game?

You know, at least with a subscription-based MMO, you know that you can at least get all the game content and levels based on how much you play the game for one flat fee per month.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 12:34

Orangeo

"I don't see why we should

"I don't see why we should penalize the whole player base on the count of farmers existing. Yes, people will farm. Why should this constitute a paywall to play a LEVEL of the game?"

Becuase if there wasn't a paywall, there would be ten times more farmers, and that makes ten times more crowns, and that makes a ten times higher CE price.
If you read any of my other comments, you would have realized I've already said that.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 14:36

Wuvvums

"Becuase if there wasn't a

"Becuase if there wasn't a paywall, there would be ten times more farmers, and that makes ten times more crowns, and that makes a ten times higher CE price."

And you know this how? And if there's an inflation they could like.. lower the crown payout for these levels. You're saying we should gamble to get access for a level BECAUSE someone may play the level too much. So what? Isn't that the point of the game? To like.. play it?

What a surprise!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 16:23

#10

Orangeo

To play through it. Not

To play through it. Not repeat the easiest level over to get rich. The purpose of the shadow levels is to challange players, not to let the richest players run the CE market even more than they do now. Just looping the first part of a dungeon isn't "playing it", it's just farming.
Or "we could like... lower the crown payout for those levels". Yhea, like when they nerfed the jelly king levels smart one. People still loop it, and ironicaly it's considered the point where making gear isn't difficult. Once looping begins, you are out of the poor hobo phase, so if people can heavily loop shadow lairs, everyone below that becomes a poor hobo.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:20

#11

Wuvvums

Once again I want to know why

Once again I want to know why a level of the game shouldn't be that playable because players may try to profit off of it. By your logic, it sounds like ALL the boss dungeons should have a paywall or oh noes, someone might farm it!

I mean, you never see WoW or another MMO cut off a section of their game to players just because the farming is there.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 23:07

#12

Marazo

Dude guys...this thread has

Dude guys...this thread has turned into a post fight. There ALREADY is a paywall, its the freaking shadow key! That what this thread is about. Im sure a 100 energy paywall is way better than 1500 (even more now) energy. And yes looping was fixed. How? by adding in the dissapearance of crown/heat and making so parties are locked when a player goes solo or gets kicked. So why shouldnt farming be fixed? (Orangeo wins :P)

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 06:01

#13

Wuvvums

Because to fix farming you

Because to fix farming you would probably have to restrict gameplay and restricting gameplay is counter-intuitive for a video game. Instead of trying to make the levels nearly unplayable, you could like.. adjust the drop rate so people can still PLAY the game, because the entire point of having a game is to PLAY it. That's what I'm trying to get across.

I'm pretty sure the whole reason the paywall is there is not to reduce farming but to get people to use the lockboxes since the value of accessories and lockboxes were plunging.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 08:58

#14

Wuvvums

Decided to add something. So

Decided to add something.

So say the farming actually is the reason why everyone shouldn't play the dungeon? Well, I could think of some ways to fix that other than making people gamble or try their luck at the AH for shadow keys.

* Make the rare material from the shadow dungeons bind on pickup. Players who get the rare crafting material would not be able to sell it, or trade it to other people, so they couldn't exploit selling the material.

* Have a timer for the dungeon. I think WoW does this. Pretty much they have it so you can run a particular dungeon or instance once a week. Once the timer runs out, they can run it again. Now Spiral Knights has less dungeons to offer so the Shadow Lairs should probably have a timer of once a day or once every two days.

* Reduce crown payout if the crown payout is actually too high. The developers can probably tweak the drop rate. Funnily enough I think I heard that the crown payout isn't that much more significant and can probably serve as a reward for trying harder dungeons.

* The suits.. well, I've seen people unbinding the suits and selling them on the market. This may actually be beneficial to three rings because someone has to spend 4k crystal energy to unbind it and whatever else is spent just to craft it per piece. I've heard the pieces can sell for 15k each to players so it sounds like SOMEONE would probably need to buy some CE to either make it ready for the market, or just to buy it. So they should keep this because it sounds profitable to three rings.

So in short, there are so many alternatives rather than implementing a paywall to reduce farming. :P

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 12:50

#15

Orangeo

" There ALREADY is a paywall,

" There ALREADY is a paywall, its the freaking shadow key! "
That's what I'm saying, they need to keep that. Not the lockbox crap, that's just lame. I liked boost.

"...making people gamble or try their luck at the AH for shadow keys." You're right there for sure. I hate how they stuck keys in lockboxes for some reason. It's just going to increase the supply of accsesories, that already run at a negative fifty precent profit or more on AH, and piss off customers. Boost was expensive, to some people, but reliable.

"entire point of having a game is to PLAY it."
So once you play through, what then? OOO is trying to keep everyone from speeding through this too. Roarmulus got attacked for two days straight then most of the T3 players vanished. Same for snarbo. I understand your point completely, regardless of the fact that I dissagree.

"restrict gameplay and restricting gameplay is counter-intuitive for a video game." Not at all. Say I'm playing kirby (not that I am). I'd be restricted from the boss untill I play the levels. Sure, slightly different mechanic, but same premise. Cant let people rush through the game with money, that's why they have high unbinding prices, no jumping to basil, etc.

"Have a timer for the dungeon." A cooldown timer? OOO wouldn't do that becuase that causes people to burn their money slower. Plus, people would regen more mist in that time, so less CE/money would get burnt. For shadow lairs, I personaly wouldn't mind, I just don't think OOO would even consider doing something like that. Now a cooldown timer for pvp quitters on the other hand....

"Reduce crown payout if the crown payout is actually too high." It's not nessecarialy the crowns on the level. Celestial ore for example sells on the AH for 100k. If OOO did that they would also have to make the market communist to fix that as well. That would be very annoying.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 14:10

#16

Wuvvums

"Celestial ore for example

"Celestial ore for example sells on the AH for 100k."

This is why I suggested those materials be bound to the player and not be able to be sold on the AH or traded, because it seems THAT'S the exploit you're concerned about.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 17:16

#17

Orangeo

"This is why I suggested

"This is why I suggested those materials be bound to the player and not be able to be sold on the AH or traded, because it seems THAT'S the exploit you're concerned about."
Whereas that's (or should I say THATS) a good idea actualy, it's not the exploit I'm concerned about. It was just the quickest way to point out that you can make good money on shadow lairs.

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Nick says: We will be evaluating other options to obtain {shadow keys} in the future.