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A way for OOO to better-control CE prices. (math stuff)

15 replies [Last post]
Thu, 11/17/2011 - 14:52
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo

First off; I'm not saying CE prices are high or low in this. My point is OOO relies generaly on crown/energy sinks right now, to my knowlage, and price shifts in CE are related the amount of people playing certian areas of the game. I honsetly don't know what equations OOO uses to regulate the listing fees, and I doubt that they'd feel good releasing it. Fair enough.

Now, this concerns listing fees and sales fees. Aslo, this would mean CE listings would have to be timed. If you have a graphing calculator, go get it. Let the X axis be the listed price. Let the Y axis be the refunded listing fee. You'll probabaly wanna set the graph window to Xmin=0, Xmax=20, Ymin=0, Ymax=20. Remember, you can't sell CE for negative crowns. Also, * means multiplication, ^ means "to the power of the following".

The equation;

Y = A * ( X - C ) ^ B + D

Y is the y cordinate, also the listing fee
~Y must be greater than or equal to 0

X is the x cordinate, also the sale price
~X must be greater than or equal to 0

A controls the price range, or how far you can go before selling becomes too risky or not risky enough. Works like total slope of the graph.

B is the difficulty to break through the price range, basicaly how sharp the graph is.
~B MUST be odd, and greater than 0.

C is the x cordinate of the middle of the line. It should be the average CE price.

D is the y cordinate of the middle line. It should be the cost to list the average CE price.

Put in Y=1*(X-10)^3+10. (works well if your graphing calculator is set to what I asked).

It goes up, makes a curved right turn, goes right for a small duration, then takes another smooth turn and goes back up again. The middle, (the point 10,10) is the place where the average CE price lies, along with it's listing fee. You can Increase A to shrink the graph from side to side, and increase B, (and keep it odd), to stretch the graph from top to bottom.

I'll post more when I have time, I'd like to put up a nice slideshow to better explain...

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 15:41
#1
Gwenyvier's picture
Gwenyvier
OOO does not directly control

OOO does not directly control the selling price of CE, only indirectly. The price of CE is free market and entirely up to the players. It fluctuates up and down with supply and demand, when people with monopoly level of CE try to artificially toy with it, and when events/new content is released. Also, there is no listing fee for selling CE/crowns, although there is a 2% fee taken out of the crowns to the person selling the CE.

Actually... a listing fee you only got back if your CE/crowns sold would probably fix the people artificially manipulating the market. Unfortunately the price often changes too fast that most people putting up bids find themselves losing money rather quickly for no reason.

Also, if OOO tried to regulate the price that CE can be sold for then you'd probably see the CE trade empty because all the players wanting to sell above what OOO says it should sell for would take it to trade chat.

~Gwen

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 15:54
#2
Hijadestone's picture
Hijadestone
a coment

i remember when ce was only 5589 crowns per i hate the new market

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 16:01
#3
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
"OOO does not directly

"OOO does not directly control the selling price of CE, only indirectly."
I consider this indirect. It's just a formula for listing fees. I'm not making it communist, saying "you can only sell CE for 6000 exact" or something.

"Actually... a listing fee you only got back if your CE/crowns sold "
That's whe whole point. Stray to far from the median, the risk you take of losing money goes up, and then it goes up faster, and so on and so fourth.

Say you are way below the suggested price. You can indefinitely list CE without spending a dime. You'd figure that you could keep listing higher prices without losing much cash, so you'd try to bring it up.

Say you are selling it for allot more than the suggested price. You figure that if the price suddenly drops, you'll lose loads of crowns. So you sell it for a lower price to decrease the risk.

"Also, if OOO tried to regulate the price that CE can be sold for then you'd probably see the CE trade empty because all the players wanting to sell above what OOO says it should sell for would take it to trade chat."
That's a good point that didn't come to mind when I wrote this. Though I doubt CE trade would halt completely. The suggested price set by OOO could be something like 5 or 6 k. Then my equation would just stabalize that. I'm not completely locking it at one point. This is just as passive as a crown or energy sink, only it effects everyone.

Also, I remember when it was only 3500 per, I'm old around here now.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 17:50
#4
Tsubasa-No-Me's picture
Tsubasa-No-Me
So what you're saying is....

That they should change the fee (As a suggestion) and give a suggested listing price for each? Running off this math?

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 06:48
#5
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Yup. You can put in your own

Yup. You can put in your own numbers and see what you get.
You can literaly "control" how much you "control" it.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 19:02
#6
Frostythepyro's picture
Frostythepyro
My graphing calculator is

My graphing calculator is packed away still, so I created a simple excell sheet to do the equivilent.

When using practial numbers for C and D (6k and 300 respectively) with x from 5000 to 8000 in intervals of 100 I found the following.

with B= to 1 it the graph is lenier (as of course expected) but that of course wont do what your looking for (generate a risk reward range with vastly increasing risk as the reward increases). So 3 was the next number which will create a proper shape, but at such a scale A needs to be VERY VERY small (~10^-6) to keep prices from balooning quickly out of controll. exponents are fun that way. at B=5 that becomes even more excisive. Mathamaticly this is acceptable but as a control process you need to consider the human factor, its harder to think in values that are that small. Also there is very little control over the exponent (B) as it must be an odd whole number (to keep signage correct).

As a solution, and to remove the odd whole number only requirement, I would suggest changing the formula from
Y = A * ( X - C ) ^ B + D

to
Y =Abs(X - C)/(X - C) *A * Abs( X - C ) ^ B + D

Abs( variable) of course means the absolute value of the variable. This removes the sign from the part be raised to the exponent (X-C)^B, allowing not only even number values for B, but decimal values as well, provideing a great deal more controll over when and how signifigantly the listing fee of higher sales baloons. adding Abs(X - C)/(X-C) to the begining keeps the correct signage (reducing listing fee when sale price is under "C", increasing when its over). This of course creates a divide by zero error when x=c but that is easily solved by either adding .001 to C or simply puting a line that says when X=C then Y=D.

Add in a minium listing fee for very low sale prices, as with both formulas if the listed sale is enouph bellow the suggested sale value then the listing fee would go negitive, and thats just silly.

As a side note, how would this effect listing buy prices.

Edit: changed ABS() to Abs(), excell uses all caps so thats what i did when i wrote this, but then i looked at it and realized some people could get confused with the variables A and B, especialy those with less mathy backgrounds.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 14:46
#7
Psychodestroyer's picture
Psychodestroyer
.....

I have a headache...info overload. Too many variables and stuff...

Ima just...lie down now...

/drops dead.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 16:21
#8
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
@frosty "As a solution, and

@frosty
"As a solution, and to remove the odd whole number only requirement, I would suggest changing the formula from"
Wait, let me explain, I'm not sure what you did.
The power to (aka B) has to be odd (or prime, I think, I'm in junior class math) in order to get the right shape. If it's even, you get a parabola, if it's odd, you get something that looks like a parabola, but the first half goes down instead of up. If you used a parabola, it would sometimes cost more to list less CE. Say 5000 is your standard price. With a parabola, going backward would increase the price as much as going forward. That wouldn't be what I was getting at.

Then again, I'm not 100% sure on what you're saying, so speculate all you please.

To summarise what my formula as listed in the original post does, it basicaly makes a line that goes up as you increase the price of CE, but flattens the closer you are to the suggested CE price. Basicaly, you get more bang for your buck, listing fee wise, if you are closer to the suggested price. You can change the suggested prices with C and D, and change the scale of the lline with A and B.

Think of it like a clip art. C and D drag it around the screen (grid), A and B stretch it up, down, and sideways. This effects how far you can go before you are risking too much or too little.
Say CE is low-priced. Everyone buys, sellers risk low crowns and always have people buy their offers. Logicaly, the price would go up.
Say it's high priced. It becomes expensive to list CE offers, and sellers lose crowns becuase no one buys it.
This works for buyers too, I'm assuming listing there would cost the same. 100% refunded upon purchase. Though you might want to cut out X% afterwards as a crown sink.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 17:12
#9
Nicoya-Kitty's picture
Nicoya-Kitty
As a mathematician I would

As a mathematician I would like to say that this thread makes me very, very sad.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 17:49
#10
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
OK, you aren't real clear in

OK, you aren't real clear in your original post, but it sounds like you are again proposing to put a listing fee on cr<->CE exchange.

Again, why do you want the market to be more volatile and have the exchange rate to go up? That is what will happen if you put any listing fee at all.

But, it makes little difference. I can't see OOO implementing fee structure this complicated. The fee needs to be able to be explained in a simple sentence or two, something that even 13 year olds can understand.

.

OK, I'm going to guess that your goal isn't to raise the volatility of the market and the exchange rate, but rather you think that people are building "walls" to raise the exchange rate. If that is the case, why not something simple, like they use in real markets to reduce the volatility, such as market circuit breakers?

For example, let people put in any sized buy or sell order that they want, and let them cancel those orders at any time. However, require a certain amount of time to pass before they can place another one. Say, 5 seconds per 100CE block, so someone who places 10 blocks of 100CE would have to wait almost a minute before then can place another order, but someone who places 100 blocks would have to wait almost 10 minutes. This would stop them from just canceling the order when people start filling it. In real world markets, the "circuit breakers" are global, so that no one can quickly list large blocks of orders when too many people are listing and canceling orders.

Sat, 11/19/2011 - 19:11
#11
Frostythepyro's picture
Frostythepyro
@ orangeo"Then again, I'm

@ orangeo
"Then again, I'm not 100% sure on what you're saying"
Thats fairly obvious, I will break it down.

Alright so Z^2 is always positive, regarless of weather Z is positive or negitive. Thus always going up, we dont want that, we want it to be negitive when Z is negitive and positive when Z is positive. Z^3 is zegitive when Z is negitive, and positive when Z is positive. thats what you wanted, thats what the odd only requirement was about. Pretty sure you understood to there.
Abs(Z)^2 is always positve, Abs(Z)^3 is also always positive. I think you got that part too.
Abs(Z)/Z is always either 1 or -1. Its 1 when Z is positive, and -1 when Z is negitive. I am not sure you put this part together
Thus Abs(Z)/Z*Abs(Z)^2 will be negitive when Z is negitive, and positive when Z is positive, exactly like you wanted, but now you can use any number for the exponent, including decimal values.

That is what I did to your formula, it now works the way you want it to, for ANY value of B.

@ Algol
He was a little convoluted in it, but what he was saying is making energy trade like the auction house. You put up the CE with its price and a sale duration, you are charged a listing fee, if the energy sells you get your listing fee back and the OOO takes its cut (2% with energy transaction). It would mean that you cant cancel, or that canceling automaticly forfeits the listing fee. The formula is basicly saying the fee is higher the more you are charging, and by an ever increasing amount, everything else in the formula is about making that amount controlable. Thus if you put CE on for high prices and it doesnt sell it costs you more money than if you put it up for lower prices and it doesnt sell. If it sells, its basicly no cost either way (well still OOO's 2%).

And yes it can be explained easily in a sentence a 13 year old could understand, "The higher the price you charge, the higher the listing fee, if it sells you get the fee back, if it doesnt sell you lose the listing fee"

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 07:08
#12
Iaena's picture
Iaena
How about if ooo just let us

How about if ooo just let us see the full depth of the market?

I'm fairly certain if people saw the full breadth of the bids at any given time, the ce/cr game would change.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 16:26
#13
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
@Nicoya-Kitty Cool story

@Nicoya-Kitty
Cool story bro.

@Algol-Sixty
Well, I do see lot's of people clogging up the market with say, 200 offers for one price, but that's not what I'm going for here. There's already a refunded listing fee then tax on trades, I'm just suggesting changing how it works. Basicaly if you list for too much, the fee is too much, and if you list for too little, the fee is too little. If the fee is too much, the price will fall, if the fee is too little, the price will rise. It's 100% refunded, and then x% tax (whatever it is now). Changing the numbers let's you make this more suttle or obtrusive.

@Frostythepyro
Oh, I see what you did now. That's useful, using only odd numbers makes scaling things difficult. I'd put that in the OP now if I wasn't in a hurry.

@Iaena
Also a good suggestion. I never understood why I can't just scroll down. Then again, most nubs just use "buy now".

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 16:46
#14
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
if you list for too much, the

if you list for too much, the fee is too much

Any listing fee is too much, unless your goal is to increase volatility and the exchange rate.

Then again, most nubs just use "buy now".

You really don't understand how the exchange works... *sigh* Not only is there nothing wrong with people using the "buy now" option, but rare exceptions, that is the only way buy/sell orders are filled.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 16:57
#15
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
"Any listing fee is too

"Any listing fee is too much"
Not realy... There is already a fee, and I don't see anyone complaining. This dosen't have to give the fee a net increase.

"Not only is there nothing wrong with people using the "buy now" option, but rare exceptions, that is the only way buy/sell orders are filled."
I said "most". My point was that if more buyers attempted to list lower prices, CE would be lower. Instead, they rant about it on the fourms.

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