Spiral Knights - Thoughts and suggestions on the current free-to-play model.

Thoughts and suggestions on the current free-to-play model.

16 replies [Last post]

Wed, 12/21/2011 - 21:53

Thexbob

Forgive me if this has already been posted in a similar fashion by another, but I figure even if it is, the more that speak up, the better.

Simply put, I think the current free-to-play model of the game is entirely counter-intuitive for what it tries to accomplish.

I downloaded and logged into Spiral Knights via Steam due to the holiday sale, as I'm sure many others did. I never really got interested in the game via screenshots or videos because they simply didn't capture my eye.

But when I loaded up the game, I was pleasantly surprised: The art style that looked kind of bland in media looked very clean, crisp and quite nice in-game. The music was also very enjoyable.

Where it became less enjoyable was noticing that the game was still using the archaic "pay to to continue playing" model, which is admittedly good for trapping a few hardcore players with lots of disposable income... but there's a reason so many higher-profile titles (Vindictus, just to name one.) are moving away from this: When you tell players to pony up or they can't keep playing, most of them just log out. Eventually, they'll stop logging back in to begin with.

Again, you keep your hardcore fans, and that's a decent stream of revenue for what it is. Consistent, at least.

But you don't have a lame F2P title here that needs to rely on such an old and silly gimmick. You've got a really good, really fun game that is being limited by the old guard's methods.

"But how can we make money? Servers aren't free. Don't you think we've thought of this?"

Well, yes and no. As I said, Vindictus, which is a notably more complex (Not a comparison of quality, just a statement.) game, ditched its own method of this. Previously, they had tokens. You got tokens a few times a week, which you could then use to go accept missions. You could also buy tokens, which meant you could play more. Eventually they held a little contest thing where if they got enough Facebook likes or something of that nature, they'd make the game token-free for three months. Well, the response to having no tokens was so absolutely, overwhelmingly popular that they outright PERMANENTLY ditched the token system.

Now their player base has exploded in comparison to what it used to be. There's so many more players now, the game is abuzz with life and it's so much more fun to play, and playing without limits means playing longer. ...And playing longer means that I'm more likely to buy stuff from their shop, because I'm already in the game, so why not? If I'm forced out of the game when I don't have extra cash or when I don't feel like paying to play, then I'm certainly not gonna be spending money in-game during that time, and the longer and more often I'm forced out, the less I want to log back in.

So, again, how do they make money?

Easy, they mostly sell cosmetic stuff. Lots and lots of different outfits and hair styles and purely aesthetic stuff like that. I think Spiral Knights actually has a cool, clean enough graphic style that this could actually be done much cheaper than it is in Vindictus simply due to not having as demanding a poly count/texture resolution, and at the same time, the visible gear on here could be much more striking and make people more envious and the like, making them want to build a cool looking set of their own.

That's not all they sell, though. They also sell self and team revive kits for pretty cheap, some auto-fishing stuff for resource gathering, and one of my favorites: The surprise supplies; which can be anything from a regular item to the (obviously much rarer.) amazing weapon. You never know what you're gonna get, but for a buck, it doesn't hurt to try every once in a while! They also have the option to PERMANENTLY buy their cosmetic stuff. Who wants to buy a cool outfit for a week? Well, some people do, but if I pay money, I like to keep things permanently. So paying more to get it is absolutely fine by me. Having different options for different types of people makes a world of difference. (For example, in contrast to me, a female friend of mine is very big on just buying a hair style for a week or so and moving to a new one. She's not going to re-rent the same one, ever.)

Finally, they sell temporary fully upgraded weapons for a day or so, which I'm also fine with. (Permanent gear that's not won by pure luck is a no-go for an item shop!)

All these items are extremely popular with their fanbase and because their fanbase can play as long as they want, they're more likely to buy, and after they buy something, they're more likely to play, etc! When you gate off players, only some of them are willing to continue. The bigger your fanbase, the more people you have, the more people you have, the more that want to play, and the more that will pay! Growth is exponential in these games, and is also exponentially more profitable.

Please, consider this alternative model. As you see from my character, I didn't play too much. It wasn't because I have any criticisms on the game, it's because the amount of energy I used in such a short amount of time was laughably high. I could've gone through it all in just a few hours. I have no intent on going back as is because to me, this model is just unacceptable. I think if you polled your players on this, and took it to heart, you'd see I'm no minority on the subject, nor am I speaking out of the side of my neck: Free-to-play is growing, and the model of paying just to continue playing is shrinking. Spiral Knights is good, why not take it the step further to make it great? You'll make MORE money, just ask any other company that's made the switch and you'll see that this is the truth. No need to take my word on it alone, I'm just a dude on a forum.

Hoping to play when I'm allowed to without limits or restrictions, later!

P.S. The energy trading thing with players is absolutely horrendous because the playerbase has no idea how to actually use the market and everyone is apparently incompetent. :p

Wed, 12/21/2011 - 22:26

Kwizzy

Nice to see someone from the

Nice to see someone from the Holiday promo coming & leaving a giant post with their thoughts :)

They do sell cosmetic stuff. A lot of it is also sold for ingame currency, encouraging people to trade the energy they buy to the free to play people.

The daily energy giveaway is the equivalent of a real-life quarter. I prefer to think of it as an arcade game, where people used to dump quarters in every couple minutes, but much more casual. It represents about 1 to 2 hours of game time in the clockworks. Players who are decent at fighting or have friends can make enough crowns in the day's playtime to purchase energy & keep playing if they want, or save it for crafting. The game does a really terrible job of making that obvious though!

The daily energy limit is probably a good thing too. Spiral Knights can be very addictive. It encourages us to get off our butts and do something worthwhile with the rest of the day. :D

Wed, 12/21/2011 - 23:03

Thexbob

As a reasonable human being,

As a reasonable human being, I'm fully capable of stopping myself from playing when more important things come up. :p

My problem is purely being limited on playtime. I like to play until I've had my fill, not until I hit an arbitrary limit. The arcade analogy is rather fitting, because that's exactly why I stayed out of arcades and why arcades died off after home consoles became reasonably comparable to their arcade counterparts. ;)

Limit a player's playtime, and you limit your revenue.

A player who is playing is always good for business!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 05:34

Juances

the only limit is your skill

The game is as follows: do a dungeon get enough in game money in that dungeon to continue playing. It's harsh for fresh players that cant handle that, but esily mastered in a week or so.
it has worked like that for like a year.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 05:52

Thexbob

Right, but then you're just

Right, but then you're just playing in a manner wherein you're trying to make enough money to continue playing, rather than spending your in-game currency on what you want to spend it on. Again, that's not enough to keep more than a dedicated playerbase playing. It doesn't matter how long it has worked -- any model that isn't openly exploiting players can work. What I'm saying is that it can work better.

Trust me, Vindictus' model was nearly identical to this. They make WAY more money and have WAY more players now.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 09:22

Huhbum

hmm

Thexbob,

First off, I applaud your thoughtful comments.

However, the new Elevator Pass feature presents its own obstacle to your suggestion. Elevator Passes, by nature, do exactly what you wish to be available to all players: they eliminate the need for energy to run levels in the Clockworks. However, the company running Spiral Knights(OOO, since acquired by Sega) has decided to make this a P2P-only option. I feel that this would not be an irreversible change, but it would be a very 'hard-to-reversible' change, as people have already spent considerable amounts of money to purchase a premium option that you would then wish to make free to all players.

I do agree with you in that I would like to see it available to F2P's as well, but it appears that the company is pursuing a different direction at this time.

One other key reason why the Spiral Knights model does not quite fit the Vindictus model in your example, as well, is because the energy system in Spiral Knights is also(somewhat unfortunately) directly tied to the entire gear/tier progression in the game. Energy is required for all equipment crafting, and energy also plays a large part in the game economy, as one of the two primary currencies that is used to purchase items, both from other players and from the in-game item vendors. Removing energy costs from elevators to all players would have very significant effects on the economy, both in-game as well as the company's profit model(s). Reconciling this issue, while not impossible, would be considerably more difficult than the token model employed in your Vindictus example.

Nonetheless, you raise some great points about the attractiveness of this quite fun arcade-style game being marred by very old arcade-style economy models, where Spiral Knights is competing against(not less greedy, but less limiting) other F2P game models.

Cheers.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:04

Mysticbeam

you know what?

This system is fine :) you will get used to it. This game is unique, don't make it like every other game out there :/

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 22:21

Thexbob

"This system is fine :) you

"This system is fine :) you will get used to it. This game is unique, don't make it like every other game out there :/"

No, I won't get used to it, because I won't be playing it. It's really as simple as that. A good game with a bad payment model is, in the end and most unfortunately, a bad game to the player, because the player isn't just a player, they're a customer. It'd be no different to me than if Skyrim had come out and was priced at $500. It'd be absolutely silly.

You say the game is unique. Fair enough -- what on Earth does that have to do with the pricing model? That's certainly not unique. It's an age-old F2P model that countless titles have used. Charge players to play more than a couple hours a day, or have them sacrifice all their in-game currency. Sounds like a billion other F2P titles out there.

The game itself would remain unchanged. The use of energy for everything else could be retooled and there would be much rejoicing by those of us that don't want to play the game simply because getting into the game is a hassle if you don't want to pay. If you end up paying to play and play often, you'll, in no time flat, pay far more than you'd pay if the game was even a $60 title. (And it would absolutely not sell at $60 a pop to all that many people.)

But if you don't pay, you'll have to balance all your resources on keeping yourself playing, or on crafting and not playing very often. That's not a good model at all.

Maybe if this was a game drought season and Spiral Knights had the market all to its lonesome... But I've got news for you, there's a huge boom in gaming right now meaning there's hundreds of great games ranging from free (Truly free.) to paid, many of which go on sale for nearly free and include unlimited playtime because that model is dying.

There is literally no argument that can be made that Spiral Knights' current model is the best one for this game or for this genre. You limit the playerbase by gating it. You make it a hassle to even want to turn the game on because then you're worried about metagame stuff like "Man, how should I go about farming to get enough to... continue farming?" The current model, for those that simply don't pony up every time they want to play for extended periods, is a huge turn-off.

My job as a (potential) player is not to rebalance the game for them, but the best thing a concerned player can do is voice their concerns and some possible general solutions, which is what I'm here trying to do. There's a lot of competition out there, and if you want to stay relevant, you can't fall back to archaic measures -- unless they're happy with their current fairly small playerbase.

Keep in mind, though, that with more players comes more money, and with more money comes more content. So not only would you have more people to play with, you'd have more stuff to do with them. And without a super-grindy model you could actually play the game instead of the metagame without any obligations otherwise. It's a triple-win. On top of that, if you DID want to spend money, it'd be a no-pressure environment, meaning people would be more likely to buy things, rather than scaring off customers with "Oh God I'm going to be behind the curve if I don't get 600 energy boosters to last this month!" and other silly stuff.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 05:53

Metagenic

People would blitz through content

Let's say I made a new account and wanted to get every single 5* item on that account. Now if I could play for free permanently, I could make the leap from 0* to 5* within 5-6 weeks. Plus the recipes would be way too cheap if everyone had no energy cost at elevators - if a T2 guy was stuck indoors on a rainy day with nothing to do, he could farm the Royal Jelly Palace so many times that he could afford all the recipes in a specific alchemy path from 3 to 5 stars. All in one day.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 11:19

The-Rawrcake

Thexbob, you have well

Thexbob, you have well thought out posts, they are all great even if people disagree.

The issue now grows like this:

1. Someone looks and sees on the interwebz SK, a "Free!" game.
2. That person downloads it cause, heck, its free and they are bored.
3. That person goes down into the clockworks and uses up her or his energy.
4. That person finds out that he can no longer go down elevators because he does not have energy.
5. That person finds out he can buy a different type of energy for crowns.
6. That person does not have enough crowns from tier 1 to buy energy.
7. That person cannot play.
8. That person quits.

The new player group of SK is growing, then dying. They most likely do not know that later on you can to RJP and make enough to keep playing. There aren't enough nublets nowadays and this is (why I think) why.

My idea is, instead of a player-run economy, make an OOO-ran economy. Make 100 energy a flat 5,000 crowns, buy and sell. That way we don't have to sell stuff with feat auctions and make holiday sales just to control energy from being messed up with this new subscription-based model with too much crowns. This way, new players have a more reachable, consistent goal of 5,000 crowns instead of them sitting, watching the economy, wasting time, and hoping it goes down, or not being able to reach it because of it went up making them quit. A flat 5,000 crowns is much more reasonable, and would help bring back our nublets.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 13:21

#10

Thexbob

"Let's say I made a new

"Let's say I made a new account and wanted to get every single 5* item on that account. Now if I could play for free permanently, I could make the leap from 0* to 5* within 5-6 weeks. Plus the recipes would be way too cheap if everyone had no energy cost at elevators - if a T2 guy was stuck indoors on a rainy day with nothing to do, he could farm the Royal Jelly Palace so many times that he could afford all the recipes in a specific alchemy path from 3 to 5 stars. All in one day."

Problems that would spring up in the event of such sweeping changes could easily be rebalanced. It's really very simple. They're a game development company, I'm sure they could figure out that they'd need to make adjustments accordingly. :p

And Rawrcake, that's a fine idea as well. Anything to get rid of the big "If you don't pay, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME" feeling new players get once their energy is gone. I mean at that point, why not just charge me a flat fee for the game? Once a F2P game ends up costing more to play than it would have otherwise, then it has lost all meaning and sight of the advantages of the F2P model, which, contrary to popular belief, is NOT designed to nickel-and-dime players with forced purchases, but to make players WANT to spend money and then bring their friends in because they're playing all day every day having a blast.

Do you know what the first question I got when my friend list on Steam saw me on the game? First question from at LEAST 9 people. "Is it REALLY F2P?" And my answer? "No. You have energy, which you have to spend on missions." "Oh, okay then." and no one played it, aside from a couple who got their snowball achievements. Word of mouth is extremely important. If I could've told those 9 (Interested, mind you. They thought it looked like a neat game.) people that it was all free except cosmetic stuff and basic boosts, I'd be playing with most of them right now. And how many of THEIR friends would THEY tell? To bring things full circle: Online gaming growth is exponential.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 16:20

#11

Saberyoko

Completely right

The-Rawrcake, youre completely right!Good thing to team up with friends and enjoy a "zelda" style adventure...
But when i discovered u need to used energy to do EVERY dam thing on this game...i feel awfull!
Im mean...is depressin you go up and leave your friends alone...
Remember me of a cartoon on TV, who says this type of drill is wrong...
Others kind of games are really free....because they need to attrac costumers to buy things on the game, not to make they believe thats a obbligation!If you dont have...unlucky. We need to be interested not forced.
Anyway...there a lot of things i also found wrong...
*I never won i lockdown...know what? Because of every dam session 2 or 3 people of my team quit...man this is RIDICULOUS we need to be refunded because of this...this is completely unfair.
*Shock is game over to you. Shock towers is dead end...for everyone.
*Oh yeah!I can buy CE...but im deppendant of the abbusive prices...i will start to buy cheap CE and sell them for 10.000 crowns...who will gonna stop me? If someone post high prices on CE, everyone follows, leaving you really dependant of buyin...

Thexbob, im with you. I CANT CALL MY FRIENDS TO PLAY because they find to borin this system...

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 21:32

#12

Tsubasa-No-Me

Now see....

Once you get to say... T2, where the majority of the game is spent (Until the SL) you can easily get enough In game money (Crowns) to trade some with people who Payed. Crowns = Gameplay and fun. Crystal Energy = Money spent for Extras and by people with bottomless pockets who REALLY wanna beat that boss. Now, if no one played (No crystal energy) then the would have to change their model for sure. (Don't be technical on this with me on this.) But as it stands now, the gameplay is fun, and should attract those first timers to come play the next day. And it does. Its just not the Constant gameplay that most want to see when they start this game, nor should it be. this game is like... a hotspring in the middle of the Polar circle, it downright stings if you jump into the middle of it, so you should ease your self into it, enjoy the game, have fun!

I'm far too tired to post more, for fear of falling asleep on the FKIGE keys....

Night!

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 21:39

#13

The-Rawrcake

"(Until the SL)" What do you

"(Until the SL)"

What do you mean by this? most people never spend time in SL due to its costs. They just get their costume and get out because it is fake content.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 02:05

#14

Aemicus

"I mean at that point, why

"I mean at that point, why not just charge me a flat fee for the game?"

Because a fee would have to be payed, but you can wait 22 hours for energy to be refilled.

I just wanted to say something: I am a completely free player, I have never bought anything in the game with real money. I've been playing about a month, and I have 3 and 4* gear and I generally hover around 600 CE and 10K crowns. I find it really easy to play with the energy requirements, I play a lot of Lockdown, for example, and recently hit my max damage of 11.2K damage in Tier 2, which I think is pretty cool. I have NEVER payed for anything, yet I am still advancing through the game pretty quickly. What I think is that Thexbob has gotten too used to true F2P games, and now hates the fact that he has to exercise patience to play this one. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, I can be impatient sometimes too, but whenever my energy runs out, I simple play Lockdown until I have had my fill of Spiral Knights, then go and do something else outside, or read a book, or do whatever I want.

However, I do think that the energy refill time is much too long. 22 hours is a long time, and unless I want to do RJP for eternity too pay for my CE costs, I have to choose between crafting and going into the clockworks for one day. An energy refill time of 12 hours would be much better, craft in the morning, clockwork dive in the afternoon. Simple, easy, and entirely possible. I don"t know if that would bring players like Thexbob back, but it would certainly make me want to play more.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 09:48

#15

Mohandar

An analysis of the problem

If you stick with it, it is possible. But I agree that with the demographics and target audience shifting, something should be done about the model. At release, SK as marketed as more of a casual game with an easier learning curve intended to attract people who don't usually play MMOs. With the passage of time and the introduction of Lockdown, emphasis has definitely changed toward the more hardcore side of things. The energy model is thus very bad for newbies of this flavor, who want to play all they can when starting out, as opposed to a more casual player who doesn't mind stopping after an hour or two. The pace of advancement was initially designed for this type of player- the limited content is fine in light of slow progression. But not surprisingly, the hardcore faction basically ran away with the setup, and as the most vocal segment, they are being catered to (and attracting like-minded players, at least those who aren't ragequitting when they run out of energy initially).

With the demographic continuing to shift, some change is probably needed. But how much, how soon is hard to determine.

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 01:19

#16

Thexbob

Hey everyone.

Hello everyone, it's been almost two years since I made this post, and I recently found out that energy is no longer required to continue playing. Not sure how many of you have continued to play over the last 20 or so months, but I thought I'd come back and see what everyone's thoughts are on the changes.

I personally am thrilled. I've always wanted to get into Spiral Knights, but as you saw from this post, I had very serious critiques of the F2P model, and according to the update the energy model was "much-maligned," so I'm personally very happy that Sega eventually saw that their audience could easily be expanded if people didn't basically get kicked out of the game if they decided not to pay after a certain number of play sessions in a day.

I hope that their population skyrockets and I will personally be spreading the information to all my friends whom I previously shied away from Spiral Knights due to and ONLY to the energy system.

I just downloaded the patch, and I cannot wait to play. Well done, Sega. It took a little while, but I'm a very patient man.

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Thoughts and suggestions on the current free-to-play model.