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New Bomb Suggestion.(update)

14 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
So, 04/22/2012 - 06:32
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Aplauses

Hello.. I just got this suggestion today! I recommend you to get some paper and pen to draw my method for Acute Bomb ^.^

1) Name: Fuse Bomb

Same like the other bomb but a bit differences. When Knights put the bomb, The bomb will not explode until the Knights press a Bomb Detonator. Yes, When knights put the bomb. It will automatically change the Fuse Bomb to Bomb Detonator. However, Fuse Bomb will explode automatically when it has been put for 20 second. Please Note that Fuse Bomb can only put once at a time. So, if you have put a Fuse bomb at the wrong place.. you must detonate it to place another Fuse Bomb

2) Name: Acute Bomb

A different bomb! Well.. it is hard to explain but I will try. To understand this.. you need to know mathematical unit and instrument. Lol.. Don't get trick by the bomb name, you are free to make another triangle shape like obtuse,scalene or anything else. Ok first. Lets say I put the bomb at Meridian Greenwich Line at 0 degree. Then I put another bomb at 50 degree. Hence, I put the third bomb at 325 degree. Please take a note that's a method is like this... 1st bomb will connect to 2nd bomb, 2nd bomb will connect to 3rd bomb and 3rd bomb will connect to 1st bomb back. Get it? Ok.. Back to the story.. So, it will make like an acute triangle radius. After all 3 Acute Bomb line is connected, the power of Acute Bomb bomb will be automatically activate. So, every monster that in the acute triangle radius will take about 35-58 damage per 0.5 second. The Acute bomb will not interrupt the monster movements. Also, Once the acute bomb has been put.. It will last for 25 second only. Please note that the Acute Bomb has it's limited range. If the bombs were put is too far from 1st or 2nd bomb range.. Then. it can't be activate. Hence.. you must wait for a bomb to "poooosh" by itself to put another bomb again.

Lol... I know this suggestion is a bit confusing. I hope you like it :D

So, 04/22/2012 - 07:02
#1
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Kentard
Interesting, but...

If anything this can be potentially tricky to implement.

Comments on the Fuse Bomb:
Function: Same like the other bomb but a bit differences. When Knights put the bomb, The bomb will not explode until the Knights press a Bomb Detonator. Yes, When knights put the bomb. It will automatically change the fuse bomb to Bomb Detonator.
Please clarify. Does this mean that once you place the bomb, your weapon slot for the Fuse Bomb changes to a bomb detonator, or that the placed bomb becomes the switch itself?

If the former, it's an interesting idea to have a remotely-controlled bomb. Problem now is that you have to determine how much damage it deals; if it's anything near a Nitronome people would opt for that instead for better DPS; this bomb is simply too slow.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good tactical weapon since you can determine the optimum time to detonate it, just that it's sluggish compared to the current bombs that we have.

Comments on the Fuse Bomb:
Lets say I put the bomb at Meridian Greenwich Line at 0 degree.
Do you mean that the first bomb placed is always the reference for the rest of the bombs?

So, it will make like an acute triangle radius.
Granted, but there are two issues with this.

1. What is the maximum distance between each bomb placed? If the bombs are too close, people would opt for the Nitronome instead; if they're too far it can get a little OP.
2. What happens if the angle made is obtuse? Does this automatically defuse all 3 bombs?

So, every monster that in the acute triangle radius will take about 35-58 damage per 0.5 second.
Please clarify.
1. To what stratum is this damage scaled?
2. When you say "per 0.5s", are you implying that the blast itself will occur over a long duration of time, similar to how the Haze Bomb works?

In general, though, this bomb seems unnecessarily complex for something that you would normally just 'drop and go'. Unless there is a very good tradeoff for using this I can scarcely see many Bombers picking this up.

Ergo, I'm not too supportive of this one. The Fuse Bomb idea still works for me.

General Comments:
I love the idea of more tactical bombs (in fact I made a few myself over here).
But, here are some potential problems you might want to consider:

1. Bomb usage is sluggish at best. If existing bombs can out-DPS these, very few Bombers will opt for these bombs, given that you technically can gauge the best time to place and detonate a bomb already.

2. Bombs last for an extremely long time. Is it really significant to have them last for 30-40s, rather than, say, 10-15?

3. Each Bomb is tricky to implement, in particular the Acute Bomb since it involves a lot of geometrical script checks. Not that complex mechanics aren't good, but there has to be a decent tradeoff for something so intricate.

So, 04/22/2012 - 09:02
#2
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Aplauses
@ Kentard.

So many question.. And I'm still thinking how to answer it.. Maybe you could give me some time to fix this. :)

So, 04/22/2012 - 10:03
#3
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Kentard
Haha, take your time mate.

It ain't easy to make new bombs from scratch, really. :)

Though I'm just one guy, so you might wanna hear out the others on the forum.

So, 04/22/2012 - 10:29
#4
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Trollingyou
Acute bomb sounds oddly complex

So, basically you charge and place all three bombs down in an acute triangle pattern and once you do they "explode" and deal damage per half-second to any enemy in the acute triangle?

Sounds interesting, though traps could be the bane of this bomb, taking up the spot where you would need to put it. Maybe if it did not have a shape limitation it would be a little more worth it.

So, 04/22/2012 - 11:13
#5
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Hexzyle
Hmm...

Acute Bomb

So, 04/22/2012 - 19:16
#6
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Aplauses
^_______^

@Kentard

Yes I got it! For the Fuse Bomb.

Question 1) Yes.. the Fuse bomb weapon slot changes to Bomb Detonator. However.. It can only be put once at a time.

Question 2) Umm.. The damage is same like Nitronome but the Fuse Bomb radius is smaller than Nitronome. The colour of explosion is like Gremlin Mortafire rocket explosion.

For Acute Bomb... I'm still thinking lol.

@Trollingyou

Yea it sound complex.. But it is interesting. But.. Shape limitation??

@ Hexyzle

Lol that's very cute... But my imagination for the bomb is not like that. :P

Mo, 04/23/2012 - 10:23
#7
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Kentard
@OP:

Question 2) Umm.. The damage is same like Nitronome but the Fuse Bomb radius is smaller than Nitronome. The colour of explosion is like Gremlin Mortafire rocket explosion.
Aesthetics aside, there's your problem.
You're essentially making a weaker version of the Nitronome that:

1. Has a smaller blast radius.
2. Takes significantly longer to activate.

If anything, the tactical benefits of using such a bomb are outweighed by its sluggish use, and an experienced bomber can use a Nitronome for strategic positioning just as easily.

You could overcome this by several means, though:

1. Bump up the damage, though this could just make it another BAB.

2. Increase the number of bombs you can set down at once.
This means that you can strategically place bombs more effectively, a la Sticky Bombs in TF2.
The problem with this is that it will be tricky to implement a system to detonate all bombs at once.

Mo, 04/23/2012 - 11:13
#8
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Canine-Vladmir
i like the acute bomb better.....

acute bomb would be strategic. i like tht.
fuse bomb would be fun in pvp

Mo, 04/23/2012 - 16:07
#9
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Luguiru
Headbutt the truck by the back bumper

"Fuse Bomb: You can only have one out at a time and it must be manually detonated or wait 20 seconds. It has the damage of Nitronome but with a smaller blast range."

Bombs are designed to detonate automatically when their fuse ends, indicated by a ring which has to meet the blast range to detonate. This weapon is essentially a timed sticky bomb but only one may be placed at a time; consider changing this to three at a time and they may be manually detonated without the time limit. It may have the damage of Nitronome but lacks its convenience in damage over time. For this design to be commendable it needs to have at least a couple out at a time; take Catalyzer mines for example. You can have a limited amount of mines out at once but the regular bullet detonates them. Rather than make a bomb copying this weapon, work on how to buff the Catalyzer line to be more useful for practical combat.

"Acute Bomb: You make a triangle out of three of them, which you have to place, and it creates a damage field in the area of effect of 35-58 every 0.5 seconds (70-116 damage per second in the triangle) for 25 seconds (the average glyph bomb, vaporizer and suction, only last a few seconds). The triangle must be in a limited area of range (no planting at the corners of the map for massive damage everywhere, though this cannot be limited due to existing bomb mechanics) and requires immensly complex mathematical processes."

For a damage per second bomb, this requires comparison to existing ones. Assume the following scenarios are at H1, no UV, no damage buffs, with max charge on a neutral target and the target does not have a defense buff/debuff (poison). Keep in mind the "standard" range has a radius of 4.

Nitronome is a 5* bomb with only normal damage; according to the Wiki at H1 on a neutral target (it does normal damage anway) it does a maximum of 203 per target in a standard area of effect. Assuming you have max bomb charge and no bomb damage buffs, it takes three seconds to charge one Nitronome; 203 damage / 3 seconds = 67.66...7 damage/second.

Dark Briar Barrage is a 5* bomb with only pierce damage; other than its damage type and slower fuse speed it has the same damage rate on a neutral target of 67.66...7 damage/second.

Graviton Vortex is a 5* bomb with only shadow damage; it has approximately half the standard blast range though its suction slightly exceeds it. This bomb has a severe movement penalty. Assuming you have max bomb charge and no bomb damage buffs, it takes five seconds and does 153 blast damage after the suction spins for four seconds while keeping enemies stuck as close to the epicenter as possible; 153 damage / 5 seconds = 30.6 damage/second. The suction radius of this bomb is 3.

Ash of Agni is a 5* bomb with only element damage; it has standard blast range but the actual explosion is only approximately one space radius around the epicenter upon detonation. Due to its vaporizer mechanic the main purpose of this bomb is to inflict a status over a large area of effect via a cloud which lasts for five seconds. The cloud gives a "minor" fire which will not be included in the damage formula, but would not match Nitronome or Barrage regardless. The blast damage in the small area of effect around the epicenter upon detonation is the same as Graviton Vortex; 153 damage / 4 seconds = 38.25 damage/second. The actual blast radius for the detonation, not the cloud, is 1.

Big Angry Bomb is a 5* bomb with only normal damage; it has a slightly larger blast range than Graviton Vortex and also has a severe movement penalty. The fuse is fairly slow and the blast itself does a maximum of 258 damage per neutral target. This weapon takes approximately five seconds to charge with max charge buffs; 258 damage / 5 seconds = 51.6 damage/second. The blast radius of this bomb is 2.5.

Radiant Sun Shards is a 4* bomb with split pierce and element damage and has been nerfed by approximately one bar of damage for both; it has an incredibly small blast range which upon detonation releases eight shard projectiles in the normal compass directions (north, northwest, west, southwest, south, southeast, east, northeast) for a long distance. It has the ability to snipe targets from afar if placed correctly without using a gun, but its primary use is to plant next to less mobile enemies so multiple shards make contact with the target. With max bomb charge it takes three seconds and does a maximum of 179 damage per shard on a neutral target (beasts and constructs are considered neutral in this scenario; this bomb has a +3 damage buff against fiends, this is an innate feature of the weapon) and can potentially hit the same target three times if placed close enough; 179 damage (3) / 3 seconds = 179 damage/second (must be placed directly next to the target; this method is often used against Lumbers and turrets and is difficult to take advantage of against more than one enemy at a time while Nitronome deals 67.66...7 damage per second in a large area of effect, potentially hitting approximately 49 enemies at once for a damage rate of 3315.66... damage/second, Barrage is the same with a longer fuse and pierce damage which may affect these figures). The blast radius for three hits is assumed to be 1.

If it is not obvious by now, the highest damage to time ratio in the largest area of effect is Nitronome/Barrage; Nitronome has a shorter fuse (explodes quicker) but its animation delivers a blinding flash and shakes the screen while Barrage gives a darker animation without any shaking of bright flash and instead shows a red hologram Snarbolax jumping. Shards line is not counted here because it is intended for single targets and being planted next to them so multiple shards impact on the target. I explained it anyway. To properly compare maximum potential damage rates (still with the previously given circumstances) I have given all figures required to do so, though I already did Nitronome and Barrage for those who want to know the maximum damage capable. Bombs were designed for area of effect damage.

"But when I use a bomb I just stand in front of the enemy and it hits me and I die so you must be cheating, hurr."

Bomb strafing. You will be able to improve your damage to time ratio to come closer to the maximum rate but it is unlikely for certain bombs to come to this; for example it is highly unlikely a Nitronome/Barrage user will be able to place a bomb directly in the center of 49 enemies which just so happen to be perfectly assembled to fit in the blast range while not moving until it detonates, and all of these enemies are neutral to the damage; hitting thrice with a shards is not only likely but provable, Graviton is more situational mobility support than offensive though may be used as such.

According to the figures of your "Acute Bomb", the weapon forms an awkward triangular area, assumed to match the standard range in terms of surface area, with a maximum of 116 damage per second on a neutral target. This means that the damage rate of this weapon is 1.7 times the currently "highest" damage per second bomb; Dark Retribution is not included due to the only method to obtain it is through a premium mission, though after the double nerf on it I assume it is currently either approximately the same damage rate as Nitronome or below.

I suppose this is where I would grade it, but I would rather have a response addressing previously indicated issues. No, I will not summarize them here.

Di, 04/24/2012 - 07:03
#10
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Aplauses
Ouh..

@Kentard

Yes.. it has smaller radius because we doesn't want to make the bomb to become Overpowered. If the bomb has same radius as Nitronome... then The knight can just use the Fuse Bomb for more faster explosion.

Uhh bumping the damage? Maybe it could help. But the problem is we doesn't know yet what kind/type of damage the bomb inflict.

Umm.. Placing 3 bombs at once? That will be tricky to implement a system to detonate all bomb at once. You have said it already.. lol

Thanks for posting Kentard! ^___^

@Canine-Vladmir

/agree. The acute bomb is more strategic. Making Knight feel free to make it's own bomb radius.

Yes. Fuse bomb in PVP would be fun. :D

@Luguiru

Lol so long! Back to the topic...

Of course that Acute Bomb has it's limited area of range. If not.. The bomb will become Overpowered.

Thanks for giving me info for the other bomb. It's really helpful.

Di, 04/24/2012 - 07:40
#11
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Kentard
Urgh.

You're not even reading his points through. It doesn't help that you just say 'it's really helpful'.

@Lugiuru's post:
TL;DR, what he's saying about the Fuse Bomb is:
1. Your Fuse Bomb is an inferior substitute to a Nitronome.
2. For it to be useful, you'll need a couple out at once. Back to my original point of multiple bombs.
3. With respect to point 2, you might as well improve on the Catalyzer rather than make a new bomb that copies it.

And what he's saying about your Acute Bomb is:
1. The triangle shaped area is extremely awkward.
2. Your DPS is 1.7 times that of a Nitronome, arguably the best DPS bomb in-game. i.e. OP. Reduce the DPS.

Also, I still would like clarifications on the Acute Bomb.
Once the acute bomb has been put.. It will last for 25 second only.
Does this refer to the blast lasting for 25 seconds after all 3 bombs are placed, or that each individual 'bomblet' stays on the field for up to 25 seconds?
If it's the latter, is the blast a one-shot blast like the Nitronome or is it applying damage over time for a short duration of time?

Please note that the Acute Bomb has it's limited range.
Limited could mean being 2 squares apart or 20 squares apart. Be specific.

Di, 04/24/2012 - 16:23
#12
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Luguiru
Sandie Claws

Why you no respect I hate TL;DR? How else will anyone notice that Nitronome is potentially 3315.66... damage/second without acknowledging the factors which are required to do so? How else will we know what is supposed to be in a Wonder Ball?

I may have forgotten to indicate one major, nutbusting* factor for the Acute line; according to your mechanics it has the area and damage over time effects of Agni with the original damage rate of Dark Retribution which originally had a smaller range than the standard for bombs; it also lasts far longer than any other bomb (vaporizer mist at 5* last ~5 seconds, Acute lasts 25 while having an absurd damage rate). Acute is essentially Agni with far more damage than it should ever have; imagine if the original Dark Retribution were buffed to double its damage instead of nerfed on speed and damage, that is essentially Acute.

* Again, walnuts.

Di, 04/24/2012 - 18:49
#13
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Aplauses
Ouh

@Kentard

About Luguiru post.

/sigh ~ Aplauses let out a deep sigh.

About Kentard.

Umm.. After knight put the bomb, the bomb will last for 25 second.

It's limited range is slightly bigger than Nitronome radius. Ouh I'm sorry Kentard.. About the 2/20 square apart, I doesn't know how to calculate that.

@ Luguiru

You said you hate TL:DR but your post was just was TL:DR? Lol.

By the way, Thank you again for giving me a detail info for the other bomb. It is really helpful.

Di, 04/24/2012 - 19:29
#14
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Luguiru
Huo JoJ

Would you rather I post another analysis?

Actually, I think my figures may have been incorrect taking the Acute damage rates; if it does 116 damage per second and lasts 25 seconds then a total setup does 2900 damage per target in the given area of effect; not only does its damage to time rate far overpower everything but the single target damage rate, as long as the same enemy remains in range for the entire duration, nearly matches the maximum damage rate possible for the currently highest damage rate bomb; if you want Acute to be balanced the time will be cut down to less than a third and the damage rate in half; you want the damage rate to come within 200 per target per bomb set, assuming one layout is a single bomb due to the range; actually, since it stays around for a while the damage would have to be closer to Agni at 153 per target caught in the range for the duration. Due to the absurd time this bomb stays I will reduce it to ten seconds, seeing as vaporizers only stay for five.

150 damage / 10 seconds = 15 damage/second

That seems low, bump the damage up to 200.

200 damage / 10 seconds = 20 damage/second

Considering how ridiculously long ten seconds is, bump that down to five.

200 damage / 5 seconds = 40 damage/second

This seems familiar.

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