Spiral Knights - Some Imbalance, Troika and Sealed... Math inside!

Some Imbalance, Troika and Sealed... Math inside!

17 replies [Last post]

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 21:40

Tsubasa-No-Me

We know that the Troika lines are under-powered with their combo, but here are some numbers to show you JUST how bad it is.

There IS a TL;DR.... I Put it in bold for you.

Look at the Damage at D24....

Suda:
1st 241
2nd 297

GF:
1st 241 (lol, the same)
2nd 331 (Oh look, MORE damage, And Curse, as well as being faster.)

So, from a forum post from Darkbrady, when I was still a noob, I learned that the Sealed sword's First hit took .8 secs, while the Suda's took .9 secs... But that second hit took MUCH longer.

So I'm about to attempt getting the 2nd swing data from the lancer knights data...

Here goes... (Note that I'm using the calculator to keep the largest available repeating Number for accuracy)

Lancer knight data says the Suda can complete 28 combo's at ASI med...

60(seconds given)/28 = 2.142857142857 seconds for one combo.

2.142857142857 - .9 = 1.24285714285714

So the Suda's Second hit takes 1.24285714285714 seconds to complete...

Lancer knight data says the GF can complete 31 combo's in 60 seconds...

60/31 = 1.9354838709677

1.935483870967 - .8 = 1.135483870967741

So the second swing takes 1.1354838709677

Now for some easy to read %'s...

GF VS. Suda; 1st swing
.9/.8=112.5% or 12.5% faster then Suda

GF VS. Suda; Second swing
1.242857142857/1.13548387096774=109.456168831168% or about 9.5% faster the Suda

GF VS. Suda; whole combo
2.14285714285/1.9354838709677=110.71428571428% faster, or about 10.7% faster then Suda on average.

Now for DPS...

Suda; First swing
241 damage in .9 secs
241/.9=267.7777

Suda; Second swing
297/1.2428571428=238.96551724137

Suda; Combo
538/2.1428571428=251.066666

GF, first swing
241/.8=301.25

GF; second swing
338/1.1354838709=297.670454545454

GF; Combo
579/1.93548387=299.15

DPS debate now...

GF VS Suda; 1st hit DPS
301.25/267.777777777=112.59336099585% or 12.6% more DPS then Suda

GF VS Suda; 2nd hit DPS
297.67045454545/238.965517241=124.566279679% or about 24.6% more DPS then Suda

GF VS Suda; Combo
299.15/251.06666666666=119.15161975570% or about 19.2% more DPS then Suda

__________________________

TL;DR?

Here's the short version:

GF Raw damage:
1st 0% more Damage then Suda
2nd 13.8% more Damage then Suda
Combo 7.6% more Damage then Suda

GF Speed:
1st 12.5% faster then Suda
2nd 9.5% Faster then Suda
Combo 10.7% Faster then Suda

GF DPS: (Not raw damage)
1st 12.6% more DPS then Suda
2nd 24.6% more DPS then Suda
Combo 19.2% more DPS then Suda

GF Effectiveness against Fiends and Undead: (Little lazy here... I'm tired :P)
360/1.9354838709677419354838709677419= 186 DPS (Exactly :O )
251.066666666/186= 1.3498207885304% or the Suda is 35% more effective then a GF on 1/3 of the monsters you'll find.

This means that if you have a GF and a Suda equipped, the only time the Suda is useful is against those Fiends and Undead. ALL other times the GF will deal 19.2% more DPS, which is like hitting a vulnerable monster.

And you know what? If you're carrying 2 Heavy swords anyways, why the heck not get a DA? It will essentially deal critical hits on everything that the Suda would be used for, and Even more on HALF the things that it would be used for, Undeads.

Normal weapons are simply outclassed in all but a few areas, and even then...

If you are bringing two DIFFERENT kinds of weapons, then why not bring a GF and a Argent Peacemaker? The GF, due it its mechanics allow it to Kill beasts, gremlins, slimes, and Constructs with ease. The AP shreds Undead, constructs, All turrets, Slimes, and its large clip, fast firing speed, range, bullet speed, and mobility let it kill all forms of fiend.

So there is LITERALLY No Legitimate Reason To Use A Normal Damage Weapon. Isn't that great... -.-

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 21:46

Bopp

um, yes

Tsubasa-No-Me, you've been around a while. Did you not already know this? It's the very basis for my much-spammed sword guide (which, for once, I won't link). Basically everybody but you and Darkbrady has been saying this all along.

Still, I'm glad that you put some more numbers on it. But would you please remove some of those decimal places? They obfuscate without meaningfully increasing the precision.

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 21:53

Tsubasa-No-Me

HEHee

Well, I know it, I've known it for a long time, I just wanted to Point out, and give solid evidence to Things I've said. I Put it here So that people will hopefully mull over it and go "Huh, Well thats sucks/IM GONNNA G USE ALL THE OTHER WEAPONS, SO I CAN HAS BEST PLAYER EVAR!"

Also, Having Solid proof It a wait to point out and make a stand with things that Need to change.

And, yeah, thanks for the feed back, I'll be sure to snip off the ends of those loooong numbers. ^-^ I might re-post this in the Suggestions to gain support for a change there... This is just the informative Thread, so its easier to point out things.

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 22:59

Kraanx

the speed doesnt annoy me

the speed doesnt annoy me much.....its big, its heavy and it's sexy, so im fine with it bieng slower just for the visual...
as for damage.... they should do it similar to the flourish and BTB relation (but considering, of course, that the 3 heavies have different types of dmg).... same combo dmg on neutral, suda over GF as it is against fiends and undead, and you can sort out the rest.... same with DA?
btw, bopp, your goddamn guide doesnt have much references to troikas.

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 23:25

Bopp

right

"btw, bopp, your goddamn guide doesnt have much references to troikas."

It discusses only 5-star swords. So you mean that it doesn't have much reference to Sudaruska and Triglav? I don't have either one, which I freely admit. At some point I'll get Sudaruska, just for kicks. It's a low priority, for the reasons outlined in this very thread.

And --- you're right --- I'm almost certain that the guide is goddamned.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 00:14

Fradow

Well, I have to agree with

Well, I have to agree with Bopp, it's a well-known fact that you are outlining. Thanks for the math though, that'll be useful to tell future Sudaraska/Triglav users just how much those weapons are bad.

I heard those have a higher knockback than DA/GF though, that could be a reason to use them, if it's true (I don't have any Troika line sword, like Bopp, because they are heavily outclassed).

But I have to disagree with your last point. You may rephrase : there is no legitimate reason to use a troika line sword and I would agree. There are valid reasons to use Levi and DVS (Vanaduke being the obvious).

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 00:51

Tsubasa-No-Me

Here's some responses....

Kraanx... I might be tired, you might be tired, But I don't Get what you're saying.

Bopp... Heh, that guide ^-^

Fradow... Well, I'll be trying to change how bad they are... <.< They do Not, however, have more Knock back. I crafted A Divine Avenger, all the way to 5* just to test between the two. I hated how much better it was then My beloved troika, that After my tests were done, I sold it... UUGH... Hate that thing. Also, The FoV out damages the Levi against resistant targets. I have math to prove this, But I'm to lazy to look THAT far back in the General discussion (Its a mess) Basically, The FoV does slightly more damage then a Levi against fully resistant targets, while the Mask does not have full resistance.

Ergo: FoV is better then Levi

EDIT: Oh, you want DVS? Well, It doesn't have a typed damage counterpart, but let me assure you: If there was a pre-existing Typed version, it would have been made more powerful then the pure normal variants. Why? Because that's how the Dev's were making normal damage weapons at the time.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 01:48

Fradow

I know all that, Levi is

I know all that, Levi is still a good deal compared to FoV because it doesn't lit you on fire on the charge. Just for that, I'll take Levi over FoV in most cases.

As for DVS, yeah but it's fun <3

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 06:36

Metagenic

I want to point this out

DA and GF are boss token weapons and thus require RJP grinding and recipe hunts to be crafted, while Sudaruska can be crafted all the way up using only recipes from the Hall of Heroes. Triglav does require long Lockdown grinding to obtain, but the recipes are essentially free (unlike SS where 4-5* recipes have to be separately purchased) and you'll get Krogmo Coins regardless of a win or loss.

Also, normal damage is supposed to be inferior for a reason. Why bother going through all that hard work for two SS or even a Triglav if all we needed was a Sudaruska for everything?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 05:27

Blue-Flood

win

I did 12k dmg in LD with my Triglav charge attacks, your argument is invalid.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 06:02

#10

Bopp

minor responses

"Sudaruska and Triglav can be crafted all the way up using only recipes from the Hall of Heroes"

Triglav comes from Krogmo Coins, so it requires huge grinding of PvP.

"I did 12k dmg in LD with my Triglav charge attacks, your argument is invalid."

Who's argument?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 06:33

#11

Metagenic

@Bopp

Oh sorry about that, I totally forgot.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 07:18

#12

Tiasthyr

Not quite >

Thanks for doing all that math! Must have been a pain to collect and crunch those numbers, and it's useful (but sad) to see them written out.

However, there are a couple of things missing from the analysis, before we can catagorically say that GF > Suda. One thing is shield-canceling- it's possible (but not likely) that the difference in swing times is actually a difference in recovery times, and maybe shield-canceling narrows the gap some.

Another factor is the charge attack, which won't be as simple as a strict mathematical comparison. Sometimes you really don't want to use the GF's charge, but a Suda would be perfect to launch into a group. And sometimes the Suda charge will launch a monster into a teammate's face, so maybe that's not always better either.

As long as we're grasping wildly at straws, another is stun vs curse. Yeah, curse is better, but if someone else in the party has a GF, is curse + stun better or worse than curse + more curse?

So I don't think we can say the GF is strictly better, but the numbers do look grim.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 07:29

#13

Audeium

adsf

I wanta triglav, cauz it looks cool and you dont have to pay for all the recipie cost, instead you play lockdown :D Thats an advantage fo the triglav.^^

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 09:08

#14

Toastnaut

Yeah, these are hardly unknown figures.

It's almost never more efficient to use a Suda/Triglav as opposed to the faster "heavy swords" (though they're compared all the time because they also have a two hit combo, I don't really consider the Sealed lines "heavy" in comparison to the troika lines..)

We have discussed to death the fact that the Suda/Triglav need a bit of -something- to give an incentive to use them sometimes.

On the other hand, I was being a goof with some friends last night and spamming suda charge all over the place.
At depth 24 the charge is doing almost 900 damage in a bomb-like radius. It is able to do this feat significantly more frequently than the GF (ugh, GF charge times) and more safely than the DA (which doesn't do that much damage without some careful lining up.)

Until the Suda/Triglav get more reliable status, a wider swing like the rocket hammer, or maybe a little more damage on the normal attack...

I'm just going to pretend it's a bomb on a stick.
It's worth taking for how cool it is, being able to smack things away from me (sometimes) with the normal attack and to shout a battle cry as I unleash the charge.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 13:30

#15

Tsubasa-No-Me

Tiasthyr...

Yeah, its VERY situational... But even in that situation where it would be useful, Using the DA would simply be better... :/

And the charges are quite different... But the recent update to the charge makes it just about right and balanced. It nice.

But the normal combo sucks, and that's where most players will be using the sword.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 17:17

#16

Meanghost

sig figs

a troll would say to use significant figures in this but its still awesome that someone would post this info rather than keep it for themselves

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 04:00

#17

Delardino

Why get a Triglav when you

Why get a Triglav when you can get a Voltedge :P (I know its offtopic) Gogogo Brandish!!!

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Some Imbalance, Troika and Sealed... Math inside!