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Fixing (short range) homing attacks

19 replies [Last post]
Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:39
Addisond's picture
Addisond

Before homing monsters got nerfed to worthlessness, they would home 100% - meaning, with 100% accuracy, no catch. Basically, if you had the aggro of the monster in question, you had to get away from any telegraphing monster, or else you would get yourself bashed. In hindsight, I see this as kind of a ridiculous cover-up of an area effect attack.

However, like many things, OOO fixed this wrong. Now zombies, retrodes, wolvers and alphas have next to meaningless close range attacks, due to long telegraphs and small hitboxes. So here's my proposed fix: restrict homing to a set angle.

Essentially, this increases the hitboxes of all previously homing attacks to whatever the angle of attack is. I'd propose keeping telegraphing monsters from rotating more than 60 degrees to either side, but the number is flexible. While this makes zombie, wolver, and retrode attacks basically wide cones of death, it makes alphas' attacks a biiiit more tricky. Because alphas use successive hits, this makes them able to follow a curvy path, and with 60 degrees as an example, they could pull a 180 degree turn from the angle they began telegraphing at. Hopefully that'd put some oompf back into them.

Any thoughts on other ways to fix the woefully weak homing monsters?

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:58
#1
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
Give back their auto tracking

Give back their auto tracking systems and everything will be fine.

"Fine": Noobs QQ'ing, people learning how to actually play the game, bringing back the challenge that is missing.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:22
#2
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
no!

absolutely no to bringing back there old homing attacks!

they were really hard to deal with i groups and almost impossible to form strategic ways of opposing there attacks. this game should be about Strategy and forming ways to overcome an obstacle.

@Addisond: i like your idea, but i propose adding a cooling time to that homing attack for about 5 seconds. this way players wont have to always worry about that attack but it can also catch them by surprise if not careful. so basically they will keep their normal attack, but peform the homing attack at a random basis. this should be applied to alpha wolvers.

i don't know about adding it to other monsters. i say no for skeletons, Trojans, greavers already have it and anything else no.

i propose giving normal wolves a dashing bite where they charge at u inflicting a massive bite attack. this attack can be performed 5 to 6 squares away from the opponent. it has a homing ability of 30 to 50 %.

other monsters should also have an added extra attack that makes them fierce, but still be able to strategize around that attack.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:30
#3
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
There was a way. Pay

There was a way. Pay attention. When you see them attack, either smack them harder or simply move backward, away from them. Shield bump also works.

How would a non tracking attack force you to strategize more than a non tracking attack. If anything, it would make a group think more on how to assault a crowd of zombies.

Trojans never had autotrack, I don't even know why you added them into the mix.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:36
#4
Addisond's picture
Addisond
Responses

Well, you could bring back auto-tracking. That's one option.

@blandaxt

I have no idea what you're thinking of. The homing attacks could be "stragtegized" around; bumping the monsters away, interrupting, etc. I'm suggesting this be brought back in this manner for the monsters on which it was present before. I don't know what you're talking about with the cooldown; why should you not have to worry about a monster that's right freaking next to you?

I don't know if you're actually a troll or not, but I'm still going to respond to your points.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:57
#5
Geregias's picture
Geregias
actually

the alpha wolvers homing was a glitch, they were always meant to attack in a single straight line after telegraphing, especially since an alpha wolvers attack would immediately break any shield in T3, before the patch which fixed them approx half the time they would attack normally and the other half attack in curves which was near on impossible to avoid or shield from

tracking while telegraphing attacks, at a reduced turning speed, is all well and good but making attacks homing is just silly, especially at 100% accuracy, not even missile puppies are 100% accurate
im all for allowing tracking while telegraphing for weak to medium damage enemies (even alpha wolvers) but not homing and tracking Trojans or lumbers is just a recipe for disaster, as is tracking devilites, they attack fast enough as it is!

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 22:18
#6
Serell's picture
Serell
Bland ain't a troll

He's just an underaged player

+1 to your idea, I really want to see some auto tracking.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:09
#7
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
@Gregias

Was there an official statement on how alpha wolvers are supposed to attack, or is that just another player defined phrase like "broken" game mechanics? The way to deal with alpha wolvers was to gun them, status with a haze, or shield bump in between their bites to attack. If you can shield cancel a btb/ff, you can use the edges of your swing to keep them knockedback.

How is it silly? Mashing zombies and retrodes who are derping around because they can't follow an enemy is silly.

Like I said earlier. Trojans and lumbers and devilites never had autotrack. I was for putting back the autotracking system they had before the major nerfs. Lumbers and trojans weren't effected, unless you count trojan's damage type changes. Actually, the dangerous part about devilites is the projectiles, which also never had autotrack. Their melee attacks are weak, since the scary part is the speed of the stuff they throw.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:23
#8
Juances's picture
Juances
~

Dunno whats the offcial stance, and I know alphas may have strong bites, but seeing them bitting the air in a straight line is silly and makes them easier targets than regular wolvers.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:06
#9
Draycos's picture
Draycos

The only strategy related to fighting enemies that can't aim that you can dodge by moving a single tile is how fast you can kill them, rather than how you can kill them without getting your butt kicked back to Haven.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:57
#10
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
sorry if i

sorry if i seem like im wasting your time, but i seriously do think adding a variety of attacks to each monster will greatly improve how players deal with them. if a player cannot anticipate what attack is coming at them, they will have to base their strategy at the first attack that is initiated.

imagine if monsters had a series of attacks that is based on situation then base on an ordered pattern. here is an example:

when a wolver notices a player, it will automatically go into attack mode to destroy the intruder. the wolver should be able to notice a player as soon as it enters its field of vision.

- situation: detected intruder.
response : use charge tackle from 5 blocks away.

- if the knights responses to the wolver by using a sword, to do a 3 hit combo damage that brings the wolver to half health.

situation: low health ( intruder still present)
response: retreat, and bark for back up.

if there isn't any back up for the wolver to call and is still on low health.

situation: low health, no back up. ( intruder still present)
response:ignore health bar and attack with bite until enemy has has been removed of.

another example:

stealth chroma:

notices intruder and moves to dispose of it. knight responds using a gun.

situation: enemy attacks with long range attack 4 blocks away.
response: warns other chroma to remain absolutely still in stealth mode until enemy has approach attack rang or has ceased long range attack.

If each monster or at least most monsters had an attack to counter the opposing force the knights provide, it would be a lot harder to deal with them. Even if they did not have an attack to counter each situation, they could have reactions base on the opposing force the knight provides. some monsters have some situation system, but they do not account for every situation the monster might be in.

how would this indication process work: here is what i thought on one example. when ever a knight switches a weapon, the monster immediately recognize what kind of weapon it is base how smart that monster is suppose to be.

for example: gremlins or devilties notice when a knight is using a long range weapon and start to take evasive actions.

another example is when a gremlin energy is low, it retreats to safe distance and uses a pill to regenerate its health.

so basically what the monsters need to make them more challenging (which some might already have) is to have a series of attacks that can counter long range and short range attacks that the knights might use and be able to decide when to change its tactic base on the situation its in.

well i think just giving each monster 2 more attacks and giving it a little more situation awareness is all they needs to become a great adversaries for the knight order.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:48
#11
Addisond's picture
Addisond
Responses

@geregias

I'm not sure it was a bug; why would OOO have created an attack that has no chance to hit players?

@blandaxt

It seems you're suggesting that actual AI should be implemented. This wouldn't fix the fact that these attacks have almost 0 chance of hitting players, and also, it would take a TON of programming to make real AI.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:37
#12
Geregias's picture
Geregias
@demonicsothe

when they were fixed the patch notes read that a bug with alpha wolvers had been fixed, perhaps it was an unrelated bug fix but after that they stopped homing
(actually it may have been a fix to stop alpha wolvers attacking while teleporting, which was basically instant death if they appeared beside you, but the homing stopped as well around the same time)

yes now they are ridiculously easy to dodge which is why tracking while telegraphing should be allowed (as it used to), but not homing whilst attacking, at least not on the same scale as before - perfect homing on an attack which would almost guaranteed break a shield, thats just asking to be nerfed, allowing some wiggle room, but never turning around completely, that makes things a little harder

im not quite sure you understand what i meant, tracking while telegraphing thats fine, it should be brought back in but at reduced turning rate so its not perfect, having an enemy change direction mid attack is silly, knights cant do it and besides, zombies are supposed to derp, they're zombies, and retrodes can always shoot instead of trying to clobber you to death

@addisond the same could be said for lumbers, since they have a very long telegraphing time it should be impossible to get hit, and yet they still exist, their attacks deal a ton of damage and nobody wants them to be changed - basically the same concept as the alpha wolvers - easy to dodge if you're expecting it and dont have lots of other enemies to dodge/get walled in by as well
perhaps giving alpha wolvers a secondary ,weaker, fast attack would solve the wolver problem better than turning them into perfect homing missiles of piercing death

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:03
#13
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
That patch was the teleport

That patch was the teleport attack. That was indeed a bit unfair, since gunners were at a disadvantage.

Alphas themselves on the other hand, were not broken. Massive attack, yes. Shield breaking, yes. In one bite against the proper shields? Lolno. Why are you sitting there tanking 3 straight hits from an alpha. Hell, you don't do that with anything, unless you were surrounded.

"Zombies are supposed to derp."

Knights are supposed to be meatheads, only swinging swords and dropping stuff and shooting random weapons we have no idea how it works. I propose we give all the knights an ai similar to trojans. That high and mighty viewpoint knights lord over their enemies would be fitting for a trojan ai. We aren't supposed to be smart.

It wasn't changing directions mid attack. It was having an advantage over knights that will kill them in the next 10 seconds anyways. It wasn't broken, it wasn't that difficult, it was just something you had to plan along, like predicting trap activations to run over.

Retrode's lazers got nerfed to oblivion. It was one of their features, along with the autotracking attack, that actually made fighting them difficult and a test of skill. It made you prepare before you spawn them, or you'll get pew pew'd back to haven.

"tracking while telegraphing thats fine, it should be brought back in but at reduced turning rate"

Reduced turning rate? Like how anyone with knowledge of the general shape of a circle can run around a trojan/lumber/zombie/retrode/devilite/vana and still outcircle their turning rate right now, regardless of your changes? Kk.

I offer my sincerest condolences you and others like you who could not for some reason learn to fight alphas.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:11
#14
Evilnut's picture
Evilnut
Addisond said, "It seems

Addisond said, "It seems you're suggesting that actual AI should be implemented. This wouldn't fix the fact that these attacks have almost 0 chance of hitting players, and also, it would take a TON of programming to make real AI."

There already are some logic implemented for the enemies:
- They choose target base on who dealt them the most damage or attacked them the most no. of times.
- They choose an action according to the location of their targets - for example, a pink jelly will spike if you are far away and in spike range, body smash if you are close enough to be in body smash range, otherwise, walk closer to you. Gremlins run away at low health. Menders choose to heal/resurrect other menders before other types of gremlins. Silkwings flock around wounded monsters.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:11
#15
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
i agree!

giving each monster a secondary weaker fast attack would make them a lot more challenging.

example: the thwack gremlins in tier 3. when being attacked close range by a sword, it sometimes does a fast spin axe attack that catches players by surprise.

i do not really want the to create an actual ai, just create attacks/ action base on situations. which some monsters already have.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:27
#16
Geregias's picture
Geregias
so you're saying you NEVER

so you're saying you NEVER got killed in arenas when there where 6+ alphawolvers attacking, homing and teleporting all around before they got nerfed to a straight line?
and when they did home as a gunner, if they did attack you the only option left is to shield but oh they move faster than you and will always hit you perfectly (this is playing with a fair amount of lag so imagine the alpha is actually attacking the moment u see the telegraph appear)
against one or even two yeah sure, they were dangerous but never impossible

still my last comment still stands, the same can be said for lumbers, they attack very slowly straight forwards and yet nobody thinks they should be changed, alpha wolvers attack fast, but for an extended period of time in a predictable pattern

also sorry for getting the bug fix mixed up, both happened around the same time - or at least from memory

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:37
#17
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
I agreed with the teleport

I agreed with the teleport attack change. I agreed with it. I even said yes, that was broken since it was unfair to gunners. Jeez, the one part where I agreed with you and you decide to read about a third of it, skipping over the part where I said it was broken and unfair.

6+ alphas? Learn to manage waves. There's even a thread with how to manage waves. Yes, I was dealing with pre-nerf alphas as a noob, farming arenas and rjp. Sealed swords work really well, and I used my faust over my 3* toothpick to deal with them. Simply because the toothpicks were too fast for me, and I could only handle heavy swords.

Lumbers are a joke, unless you stun them or derp like a jelly. Why would anyone bother changing them, besides a speed up in turning and a shorter telegraph time? Because there will be people crying that lumbers are too hard now. And they hit really hard, with a rather high status infliction rate. Somewhat fair trade-off, could use more speed though.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 00:53
#18
Geregias's picture
Geregias
lol lumbers

yes but if we consider that alpha wolvers are the beast equivelant of lumbers - hard hitting - good chance of status, complete derps after the nerf, it really makes sense to either do both or do neither

that said i know that current alpha wolvers are a joke, but 100% homing is IMO a joke as well, except in specifically hard areas like shadow lairs
hence why a secondary fast attack would be great for all alphas

just remember that the game has to remain balanced for new players as well, not just the old guard who have mastered the tricks of each monster (it takes some of us a while longer)
new difficult content or harder enemies in the highest tiers, is better than having a monster which will kill all new players in all tiers, admittedly T1 alphas aren't anywhere near as aggressive or imposing as T3 ones but as a noob with 2* gear and fighting T2 alpha wolvers pre-nerf was a nightmare,
so im standing by my opinion that in general the nerf, for alphas if not the other monsters, was a good thing BUT that there should be nightmarishly difficult monsters in T3/shadow lairs for end game players (im personally opposed to having homing wolvers but rather having more enemies like the gremlin bombardiers who are a much bigger pain if not so much of a threat)

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 08:10
#19
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
"alpha wolvers are the beast

"alpha wolvers are the beast equivelant of lumbers"

Nope. No reason to do so. If you want to compare lumbers and trojans, go ahead. This? No reason to.

"noob with 2* gear"

would find fighting T2 jellies hordes ridiculously hard as well. I've been there. Nerf jellies pl0x. Also, jelllies op, can attack from any angle without turning. Let me compare them to chromas. Just because. I want them to have a longer derpcomehitmebroiminvis animation. Jellies = chroma, just because. Also, gremlins are devilites. Why? Because.

Gremlins bombers aren't much of a threat, unless its the 12 bombers at the end of an arena. In which case, you put away your gf and take out a toothpick. Or continue acheron charge spamming. Or continue dbb. Or continue sent/umbra pewpew.

I'm not against more attacks. I'm against that weak buff you consider strong.

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