Spiral Knights - Been using the cutter line weapons and...

Been using the cutter line weapons and...

18 replies [Last post]

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 10:00

Havenihaveaproblem

So, I am still a total noob at this game, but I have had some thoughts on the cutter line that I thought might be good. If anyone is interested, take a look; if you are one of those people who hate wasting their time, then I would move on because my ideas might be totally noob and have no relevance to your level of play.

Changes that I think should definitely happen

Change the knockback on the sword swing to the "low" portion of the strike.

Reasoning:

Currently, the knockback seems to be on the "high" portion of the strike. This pushes the enemy out of range of the low portion of a strike causing it to miss, and you end up losing a lot of damage. The weapon already does suboptimal damage as a normal weapon type; I just can't see any reason for this mechanic existing the way it currently does.

Changes that I think should probably occur, in some form or another

Increase the chance of interruption for the third "high" strike in the 5 strike combo (or 6th strike overall in the 10 strike combo, depending on how you look at it)

Reasoning:

Although the cutter line has the fastest swing in the game, its combo actually takes ~25% longer to complete than any other sword. Since it's current interrupt is on the final swing, a sword that already has low damage has to further truncate its damage by ending its combo early to shield because it can't interrupt enemy strikes in a reasonable amount of time. I am not advocating making the 3rd swing equal to the final swing of the combo, but it would be nice if it perhaps had a stronger chance of interrupting, or if there were some sort of "scaling interrupt" mechanic where 3 consecutive high hits functioned as an interrupt vs. most targets.

Increase the damage on the charge attack.

Reasoning:

The charge attack is a high risk attack, but the reward for using it isn't really commensurate with the risk.

Changes that are ideas that might be too crazy

Increase the swing speed on the charge attack as an alternative to increasing its damage.

Reasoning:

Rather than increase the reward of using the charge attack, simply lower the risk - a faster charge attack makes it less risky to use.

Revamp the charge attack as an alternative to increasing its damage or speed.

Reasoning:

Instead of buffing it, simply change it altogether to something more fitting with the cutter's mobile style. My idea is a lunging attack where the player swings his swords in downward slashes in front of him. The slashes push stricken enemies aside slightly and interrupt their attack. The high utility of the move doesn't leave room to allow it to deal a lot of damage, but it grants the cutter user a few options:

1. When surrounded, the player has an escape mechanism.
2. It divides the enemies' focus which allows allies to strike at their backs after you push through them.
3. It's not exactly Leviathan effective in dealing with groups of enemies, but it offers unique utility that is thematically appropriate with the cutter line of weapons.

The distance of the leap is up to balance.

I found a video where I had my inspiration for the attack. It's from the Garos in Zelda: Majora's Mask for the N64. (Turn volume down a bit because video is loud). Anyways, the best example is at 56 seconds in this video.

Make "+Sword damage" and "Damage bonus vs. Type" UVs stack separately.

Reasoning:

Currently, damage bonus UVs cap at Maximum! or at 6 stacks of low damage bonus. This stacks with, for example, UVs that grant damage bonus vs. Beasts. The result, as everyone knows, is that CIV sucks, Wild Hunting Blade is not so cool, and anything else with such UVs are pretty much at a disadvantage. I'd like to see these "bonus damage vs. Type" UVs on a separate counter from the "sword damage bonus" UVs. Perhaps there could be a global cap of 10 stacks of combined low damage bonus from sources of both "bonus sword damage" and "bonus damage vs. type" UVs.

A key binding that I can hold down to activate auto lock temporarily.

Reasoning:

I have begun playing the cutter with auto lock turned off to better rein in all my jumping around. However, there are times when I find myself lunging past my target halfway through my combo, and it is hard to turn back around. It would be nice if I could temporarily turn on auto lock when I fix myself onto a target, so that this doesn't happen.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 10:17

Canine-Vladmir

+1 in support

sir i have never used a cutter line in my Cradle life but i will support you for not making a small post saying "Fix Cutter"
im sure there's a few things wrong with your post but i believe your mostly right. Let lugi or something else criticize this.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 10:24

Havenihaveaproblem

Thanks :)

Thanks Canine!

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 10:57

Juances

I dotn want to stack Damage bonuses from UVs. May lead to ridiculously high damage on other weapons.

If possible, only make it count on weapons that have a natural bonus (cutter, civ) but not on random UVs. I wouldnt like to see a Divine Avenger vh undead 1-hitting everything in LoA.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 11:27

Havenihaveaproblem

@Juances

Impose a global cap of 10 stacks. This would require, for example, 6 stacks of damage bonus and 4 stacks of damage vs. a type. You would deal ~21% more damage with 10 stacks than with 6 stacks. This, of course, would only be vs. one type of monster. Is that reasonable? One-shotting would never happen. And it wouldn't easily be "any monster in the game" as you would need not only 6 stacks of damage bonus, but 6 different stacks of VH vs a type. I don't know how reasonable that is to expect.

Maybe the idea is too crazy. I could see only allowing weapons with innate bonuses to exceed the cap.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 11:36

Luguiru

Dem daggers

I assume high and low refer to the first and second parts of each basic swing, respectively. Keep in mind with this weapon that Cutter is our version of a dagger. It is not simply the fast sword, it is a dagger. It has relatively low damage per hit but has the ability to deliver several consecutive slices for rapid attacks.

The knockback is on the first part of each basic swing to force the user to follow through with multiple slashes rather than trying to shield cancel, seeing as each swing forces the user to lunge slightly.

This sword is not meant to be used in place of, say, a Brandish or Calibur; it is not meant to be used generally in battle. Switch to the dagger, throw a few slashes out, then get out of danger. If you try to stick around to use as many attacks as possible rather than stopping after a couple quick slashes, you would have to deal with the sword combo end delay; you do not want to have that delay. There are five swings in the basic combo to allow the user more freedom to resort to assassin tactics rather than simply dealing as much damage as possible with other major sword lines.

The charge attack for Cutter lines seems to be intended for a vulnerable target under the influence of a mobility interrupting status or something too preoccupied to turn around and slap you. Similar to how its basic attack works, this is not meant to be a generally useful offensive sword. The charge attack is often ignored to push users to use the sword for its rapid basic attacks, not a powerful charge attack to rely on as with other offensive swords. For example, would you rather use a Brandish or Cutter line charge? What about the basic attack for those two? To make a more obvious example, compare Avenger and Faust lines. Avenger is more favorable for its charge attack, while Faust line has advantages in its basic attack. Sometimes you want the basic attack over the charge, sometimes it goes the other way; it gives variety to how people play.

UV stacking by separating weapon and family bonuses would make weapon specialist equipment overpowered, and people are complaining about it being overpowered already. Family bonuses can be obtained through weapon UVs, but weapon specializing bonuses are only from equipment which is supposed to have it; Wolver, Demo, Gunslinger, Krogmo trinkets, the Snarbolax shield, Swiftstrike (not necessarily specific to a certain weapon but only benefits swords and guns regardless of enemy family is being fought), and a few other things. However, family specializing equipment tends to be underpowered in comparison to weapon specialist equipment in terms of how versatile it can be. Compare Chroma and Wolver lines, giving a jelly family bonus and sword bonus respectively. There are three weapon types and six enemy families, not including the neutral/forever alone enemies such as battlepods and Vanaduke. Chroma, only giving +2 family bonus at 5* per part, is only useful against one family but benefits all three weapons. Three weapons by six families is eighteen potential scenarios to encounter, not including neutral enemies. That means there are potentially eighteen scenarios. Of those eighteen, the family bonus only gives +2 bonus per part in three of those eighteen scenarios. It is useful one sixth of the time. What about Wolver? It only affects one weapon type, but it works for all six families and still gives +2 weapon bonus per part at 5*. One by six, six of eighteen, one third; the weapon specialized equipment is useful one third of the time while the family specialized equipment is only useful one sixth of the time. Back to the topic, what would happen if family and weapon bonuses could stack independently of each other? Seeing as there is no generic damage bonus UV, you would have to get your damage buffs through equipment. All you need is your Skolver set, the Snarbolax shield, your Combuster/Voltedge/some Brandish, and a decent family UV for it. Your armor and shield give the max bonus currently possible, but your family UVs add even more damage on top of that. Say for some reason you have a triple max UV against three different families, though that is highly unlikely. Now you have +12 bonus against those three families and you already have +6 against everything else. If the Wiki is correct where each +1 bonus is +7%, your old +42% against everything is now +84% against those three families. I know this is near impossible to happen, but the idea that this is possible will make people wet themselves.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 11:37

Orangeo

+1 for the last part

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 12:06

Akvar

I like the ideas on the

I like the ideas on the cutter line, +1.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 14:38

Havenihaveaproblem

@ Lug

Thanks for the long comment. I appreciated it all as I read it :). I'll quote you and give my remarks beneath each quote, if you don't mind. The high and low part of each attack is taken from the wiki definition itself. To clarify: each time you swing, the first part of the swing is considered the high strike, and the automatic followup swing is called a low strike. So you have five swings with 10 attacks total. I just decided to maintain this Wiki jargon in my posts here, but I guess it is apparently not as widespread as I might have hoped.

"The knockback is on the first part of each basic swing to force the user to follow through with multiple slashes rather than trying to shield cancel, seeing as each swing forces the user to lunge slightly."

The idea that the knockback needs to be on the first part of a swing in order to discourage shield canceling doesn't really make sense to me. Shield canceling is skilled play. Skilled play should be rewarded. At any rate, when you shield cancel the low part of the swing still lands because it is an automatic follow up. This means the knockback would STILL be present even if you shield canceled. Is there any reason now to not put the knockback on the low part of the swing?

"This sword(the cutter)...is not meant to be used generally in battle. Switch to the dagger, throw a few slashes out, then get out of danger. There are five swings in the basic combo to allow the user more freedom to resort to assassin tactics rather than simply dealing as much damage as possible with other major sword lines."

When would it ever be advantageous for me to go through the trouble of switching to a DVS in the middle of a fight, when I could just as easily

a. Fire a heavy brandish charge attack
or
b. Finish my combo with any other damage type favored sword

I feel like calling it an "assassin" weapon misrepresents it as viable. Yes, you could say it has a unique purpose, but it doesn't mean it's useful. It's like if I made a new position in basketball called "fast break defender," where you leave one of your players always on your side of the court to defend against a fast break. It makes no sense; that position would be better used elsewhere. Similarly, with 4 weapon slots, the DVS and its assassin tactics are going to be benched.

"This is not meant to be a generally useful offensive sword"

Doesn't that mean there is a problem with the weapon? Doesn't that mean, at the very least, that there is room for the weapon to grow? For a unique niche to be remotely viable, it needs to excel so thoroughly in that niche that it trumps everything else in that application. Cutter line doesn't do that, so weapons that are just as useful but with more versatility will be chosen over it. In order to compete with this versatility, either the cutter line needs to become more versatile itself (aka offer more utility outside of its realm of assassination) or become so overwhelmingly good at its niche that it's worth picking over the other weapons. This second condition will happen as soon as it becomes favorable to switch in your normal type cutter over finishing a combo with any other damage type favored weapon.

You can actually add the damage up. The Leviathan blade does 664 damage in its total combo. The DVS deals 850 damage in its total combo, but it takes 25% longer to complete. Dividing 850 by 1.25 gives 680 damage. The DVS dps is only worthwhile if every strike lands which often doesn't happen because the low part of the blow whiffs. As long as its DPS are lower, it won't be useful to "pull it out for a few swings," and its role as an assassin weapon is impractical. This is only comparing it to another normal damage type weapon; when compared to weapons with favorable damage match ups, of course the damage disparity is huge.

I'm just confused overall as to how an assassin role is anything more than a pretense that the weapon should even exist. Wouldn't the game be better off if the weapon were more viable, so that people who appreciate its mobility and style don't feel like a liability because they deal less damage than every other swordmaster? It doesn't even need to be about damage, but the weapon doesn't even offer tons of utility (granted poison is good vs. bosses, but so are damage specific weapons, status bombers, and blitz.) Cutter weapons are more of a novelty than part of a serious arsenal.

"The charge attack for Cutter lines seems to be intended for a vulnerable target under the influence of a mobility interrupting status or something too preoccupied to turn around and slap you...The charge attack is often ignored to push users to use the sword for its rapid basic attacks, not a powerful charge attack to rely on as with other offensive swords. "

So far as I have seen, and I could be wrong on this, but the game does not seem to support a lengthy attack against debilitated enemies. The charge attack breaks ice whereupon the target, for example a lumber (since you would only bother with the charge attack if it is a large target), will turn around and smack you before you complete your charge attack. If you try to exploit distraction, such as a teammate pulls a monster while you hit it from behind, the monster moves out of range before your charge attack completes. Even a stunned enemy is liable to just turn around and beat you or walk out of range. Also no matter the scenario, as long as there are a group of enemies present, this attack can as good as never be used.

I don't see a reason to forcefully pigeon-hole a weapon just for the sake of doing so. There are plenty of ways to give it a charge attack that fits into its theme, be it assassin or otherwise, and at the same time reward players who use the sword with more interesting and varied gameplay. Why does every other sword grant the pleasure of not only using your basic attacks often, but also having a viscerally satisfying charge attack to go with it?

What did you think of my idea to revamp the charge attack? The new attack is intended to add options. In terms of your idea of how the sword should be used, as an assassin weapon, it would allow a player to more easily maneuver behind a target even if a group of enemies are there. The new attack is NOT intended to be a powerful charge attack; it's supposed to deal low damage. Other weapons, like the brandish, calibur, and troika swords, already fill the role of heavy charge attack.

"If the Wiki is correct where each +1 bonus is +7%, your old +42% against everything is now +84% against those three families. I know this is near impossible to happen, but the idea that this is possible will make people wet themselves."

So this is near impossible to happen? What if we placed a global cap on UVs, so that collectively, from sources of BOTH +Sword damage and +damage vs. a type, the bonus is capped at 9 or 10 stacks (63% or 70% according to the wiki)? It would be extremely difficult to achieve the cap without using CIV or Wild Hunting Blade or other weapons like it (which have inherent compensatory weaknesses) and at the same time not sacrifice UVs such as CTR and ASI. I am not sure if it is even possible to manage to get all of your status UVs, ASI, damage, CTR, and defense UVs and still have room to reach this cap against more than one or two types of monsters. Is such a change really unreasonable? If not, it would be a great way to fix the whole problem with a number of weapons that grant damage vs. a type UVs.

Summary

Why can't the knockback be placed onto the low part of a swing? The low part is automatically made even if you shield cancel, so the target will still be knocked back. Sustained shield canceling is still discouraged but your combo will actually land in its entirety when you aren't shield canceling.
Having a role, such as assassin, doesn't mean the cutter line is in a good spot
There is no reason any weapon should not have a useful and usable charge attack. It's like driving a Honda Accord vs. a BMW. I don't need a BMW, but when everyone else has one it damn sure would be nice if my weapon had the same features as theirs! For a player, the charge attack is a major facet in the fun of a weapon and should not be ignored. There are ways to design an innovative charge attack that is useful, unique, and not overpowered.
What do you think of a global cap on the sum of your damage UVs? How feasible is it to abuse such a mechanic without sacrificing other sources of damage such as ASI and CTR as well as defensive UVs such as status, defense and health trinkets?

And while we're on the topic of suggestions, I would love to have a key binding that I could hold down to activate auto targeting. I'll add that to OP.

PS. If there is a true assassin type weapon, the flourish line does it the right way.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 14:32

Addisond

Agreed

Yup, almost no one totes cutters around just for their few purposes at the moment, only people with weapon slots to spare and players who forgot to grow out of it still use it.

Edit: forgot to mention this, but I think that they should make it so that family bonuses only stack if they are built INTO the weapon (not a UV or armor), just so that family bonuses make sense.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 14:43

#10

Havenihaveaproblem

@Addisond

Juances suggested this above, too. I've no reason to believe it wouldn't work. I was shooting for making the UV in general worthwhile, but if that's too strong then I definitely settle for halfway. I just hate to see all these weapons and have so many of them in a weak state. I guess I'm a little upset with the CIV just because it looks so sick, but I don't want to be weak at the same time. I just want to say "Yeah, well I deal more damage to undead than you do. Oh, and my sword looks like the grim reaper himself designed it."

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 17:22

#11

Mk-Vl

Love the ideas

Although I cannot say I know much about cutters seeing as I never owned one. But for what I do know:

Disable Auto Aim - Your training will help your ranged attack fire focus in on nearby threats, but you can ignore this aiming assistance by holding the Shift key. You may find this useful if you are attempting to shoot a stationary object, like a block.

Taken straight from the wiki. This also means that if you have AA disabled in your options shift will turn AA on for the duration of the key being held down. Also is bindable to whatever key you please.

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 19:10

#12

Havenihaveaproblem

@MK-VI

i luv u

Mon, 07/09/2012 - 23:32

#13

Hmmnm

I like it! But a bit more clarification...

When you refer to the high/low part of the swing, I think you are referring to the double swing unique to cutters. Most people call the second swing as the ghost strike.

I totally agree that the knockback should happen on the second strike instead of the first.

The damage cap is here to stay though. If it is raised for one weapon, it will have to be raised for all the other ones as well. Some weapons are already overpowered without damage increase.

As for the charge, I don't really like the low damage split crowd idea. It is very difficult to chrge while surrounded, so having a charge attack to escape a mob is a bit useless. Moreover, most people like to lead crowds in a circle around arenas, By cuting through the croud and going in the opposite direction might scatter enemies instead of keeping them in one nice tight clump.

Personally, I would like the charge attack to change like this:
The attack will make the player immobile for one slash. After that, four ghost slashes would appear at the area where the player released the first slash.

That way, the charge attack would be exaxtly te same as before except without the risk.

But don't get your hopes too high. We've been clamoring to increase Iron slug's damage for ages, but they hav't changed that yet (I mean, how hard is it to change one number?)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 08:31

#14

Hmmnm

sorry, double post

sorry double post

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:56

#15

Nexassassin

Oh god....

Adding the knockback on the llow part/ghost strike of the swing is just genius! +1
A way to increase interrupts during the combo. Another +1

P.s. There is a way to toggle Auto-Aim on/off. If you haven't changed the controls, it's left-shift ;)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:05

#16

Havenihaveaproblem

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Thanks for the feedback guys. We can keep brainstorming for new stuff. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that Hmmnm is probably right in that our ideas don't figure into the developer's agenda. Good to see some other cutter fans, though!

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 20:15

#17

Lordelie

dread venom striker

I personally think that dread venom striker should be like FoV and deal the status effect easier because it makes the sword aliitle sad. So I am saying thatit should deal poison easier so itwoild be more useful

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 20:43

#18

Hmmnm

Note:

You can change your original post. The edit button is under\near the title.Editig the original post would be good for players who dont want to read the entire forum.

But yeah, I agree that the chance poison needs to be highter. At least a fair chance.

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Been using the cutter line weapons and...