New Shard Bomb Feedback (Why I believe that this new change is necessary and better for the game as a whole, not just bombers).
ven, 07/13/2012 - 22:44
Do these bombs seem balanced in terms of damage?
Yes, most people notice that it deals low base damage, but you can get multiple hits on one single monster (I usually saw it hit 2-3 times depending on the size of the monster, wether or not I could hit it with the initial blast, and positioning) and it is intended for AoE purposed, not single target purposes. I can safely say it doesn't deal too much damage and doesn't deal too low damage in comparison to other bombs, so that is good. However, I am by no means a bomb expert and cannot say anything further as I do not possess the necessary knowledges to do so.
The bomb is not at all overpowered against Royal Jelly / Jelly King / Jello Man. It's just right where it should be, I think, in terms of single target damage against a large monster such as Royal Jelly King Man.
Are these bombs fun to use?
More fun than the original ones, a much better and more innovative idea than the original shard bombs. In fact, I am very glad that this question was asked. I felt a rush when seeing all those explosions and actually being satisfied with the AoE damage + the rate at which monsters were dying and felt it fitting unlike some other bombs, and I am considering getting these bombs and maybe starting back up my bombing set. The risk definately matches the reward, which cannot be said about bombs such as Big Angry Bomb.
Does anything stand out that seems broken? Please report any bugs you find in your feedback threads.
The thing that people have been mentioning (and someone mentioned that the devs already know about this) where shards will disappear when the bomb is placed next to a wall / next to a battlepod etc. I would imagine that this can be changed so the bomb is more effective against battlepods or narrow hallways etc. If not, the shards only disappear when the bomb is very close to a wall, not when the bomb is just a bit away from the wall.
_____________________________________________________
Now my personal feedback.
My bombing career is short, I have used bombs and I have a bombing set and I know what all of the bombs were like before and I read a bit from guides. The main point of my feedback here is that this is feedback from a gunner. I don't want someone to tell me "ZOMG Y U NO BOMBAR GET OUTTA HERE" because we are all, yes ALL (swordsman and gunners included), affected by a bomb change: wether it be positively or negatively. Currently, RSS and other gun-like bombs are diminishing the usefulness of a gunner because I am not as needed in your party. In fact, it diminishes the use of guns themselves, especially with a range that is even greater than every gun in the game.
My feedback will be totally different, because I am going to be saying positive things and be focusing on why I do not believe that those who are attached to the original shard bombs are being fair here. I do not have any rage to vent, so there won't be any yelling etc.
Many people believe that this change was solely to get rid of how a monster can get hit by all of the shards at once from the original bombs. Personally, I never got into the shard bombs just because they felt just plain wrong. But I believe that these shard bomb changes are also necessary for two more reasons:
1. Gun-like bombs diminished the usefulness of having a gunner in your party, and you can cope with rangelessness as you are intended to in this game (get a gunner, get a gun) just like Swordsman do currently.
2. These old shard bombs are simply, as stated by the developers, not for the true bombers arsenal!
1. Why we should be able to cope with rangelessness as bombers. Gunners and guns are important and part of this game too!
Now let's talk about how others cope with rangelessness.
The huge majority of Swordsman being the huge majority they already are use guns as a sidearm. Many swordsman understand that switches are not always going to be one foot infront of them when they hit it, and they can deal with the fact that certain monsters aren't going to be super sword-friendly. They are willing to cope with this, and they bring along a gun as a sidearm.
The reaction that I saw from bombers when these proposed changes were on the test server surprised me. The main concern with them is that they no longer have a ranged bomb.
Unlike Swordsman, bombers haven't had the time to cope with this rangelessness. Once they get used to it, they will be like "yeah mmerphlblerflllgerble whatever I'll throw in a gun" just like most swordsman have. No, swordsman do not use DA charges to always hit switches / take out gun puppies. I see swordsmans WITH DAs use pots to hit switches, and would rather run up to a gun puppy to kill it.
Other than its range, what were the shard bombs useful for? Clipping all shards into a single monster and using them to deal with things such as trojans and lumbers and other large-healthed nuissances by hitting them multiple times.
Well, the new shard bombs are more superior to the old ones as far as AoE damage goes. Single target-wise, this bomb can ALSO be used to deal with large healthed nuissances. It can be used to hit trojans / lumbers / other nuissances multiple times. We now have a pure elemental and piercing bomb to do so with as well.
The only real thing this bomb is missing compared to the old version is the range. All that it comes down to is the range. However, bombs themselves are not intended to be guns. You are supposed to have gunners in your party for that.
If everyone had a 5,000 foot long pole to hit switches or kill gun puppies with, then I wouldn't be useful in your party! (me being a gunner for almost 11 months). The new shard bombs do not cause NEAR enough knockback to be a nuissance to my guns. These shard bombs should be compared to swords, since swords will also deal small amounts of knockback.
Now, if you do not have a gunner in your party? Well... as I said earlier, how do swordsman cope with rangelessness while solo? They bring in a gun as a sidearm. Bombers may need to do so as well, it is best to bite the bullet if you choose to not take me, a gunner, into your party.
Now let us compare. A gun should easily deal as much if not more single target DPS as the RSS against a turret. A Polaris is also capable of interrupting turrets if that is your thing. There is a sidearm gun that can do what RSS does as far as its gun-like nature goes, if not better. You know, because the gun is ACTUALLY a gun!
2. Why the old shard bombs are not apart of the true bombers arsenal!
What did the great Fallout say? I don't know I haven't been bombing for that long, do you guys look up to him like the old Fossa-Ferox for gunners? Not sure, well I vaguely remember Fallout once saying "BIG SPROSIONS" when I read his guide.
Old shard bombs aren't really much of an explosion at all. Personally, I view bombing in this game as reckless, defensiveless, awesome, and somewhat insane. I do not think of bombers as "Ok, and if I place this shard bomb precisely here with this perfect 90 degree angle between both of these gun pu...." WHAT? What bomber is supposed to do that? No Mad Bomber should ever say the words "Precisely" and "angle" in the same sentence. In fact... no Mad Bomber should EVER worry about precision or angles.
I want to blow crap up, and I got a rush from using these new shard bombs. Just watching those gremlins get torn apart by perfectly bouncing from shard to shard of each bomb when I place a giant field of exploding shards around them, leaving them with nowhere to run to. THAT is what bombing is all about.
Now, let's say you are Mr. Execution > Innovation. These shard bombs are implemented fairly well, their mechanics are fair yet still useful. I found that placing a field of shards around a group of jellies took them out roughly the same amount of time as it did to lay down 2 clouds of mist and then finish with a huge nitronome blast. Just as it should. I found that it did NOT tear up Jelly King in 2 seconds like the Dark Retribution did. This, is called balance. Balance is what you want to achieve in this game.
As a bomber, I would be glad that the developers are fixing a broken issue with the monsters clipping every single shard from the bomb, as well as promoting the use of guns and gunners in your party (how "ranged" is intended to be).
In addition, I would like this change as a bomber because it brings me Elemental, Shadow, and Piercing DPS bombs with a normal damage option that won't clog up the entire screen as bad as Nitronome and won't cause as much knockback as Nitronome. And, above all, I believe it would bring back the good feel of being that insane bomber who recklessly blows stuff up. This bomb deals great AoE damage, as that is what bombers are intended to do in this game: deal great AoE damage. Not gun!
I can honestly tell you that I am considering starting back up my bombs, because the addition of Elemental and more shadow AoE damaging bombs is necessary and an amazing addition.
This sounds odd, but coming from someone who doesn't have anger to vent and is willing to look at things from a different view,
+1, these bomb changes are necessary.
Thank you if you read this.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 00:05
#2
Man, before I saw whose
Man, before I saw whose thread this was I was about to write a great big response.
10/10, would read again.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 08:42
#3
AGREED!
While the bomb in general does need some tweaking in order to make it trully effective (Something I'll touch on in my own topic), I find it a lot funner and more appropriate than the RSS. I do think Dancinjen has a point in that a lot of the guns have way better ranged functionality than the current RSS, but even then, bombs do have some form of range with their AoE radius; it's just not as a effective or as easily executable as guns. Honestly, I don't think being unable to hit a Gun Puppy across a chasm is a huge deal.
As for me, I'm a seasoned bomber (With some considering in gunner), but like I'ved stated in another topic, I've used RSS only a few times before dropping it because it, well, never suited me. Like Rawrcake, I WANT explosion, not bullets, and especialy when my play style works for having the most bang for your buck. After having played with the new bombs, I can safely say that I had a ton of fun with them, though I was still romping around tier 1 at the time.
I'll also add the point that these bombs feel MUCH more easier to get into than the current RSS, but still holds some mastering values (I.E placement. I'll make my own points in another thread, but as bomber, I actually look very forward to the final version of these bombs.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 10:19
#4
@Dancinjen"I do not agree
@Dancinjen
"I do not agree with this in the least bit. It's because gunners will always be more effective and useful than a bomber with an RSS. If you do not feel effective or useful as a gunner compared to a person with an RSS... then maybe there needs to be an evaluation of how you gun. There is nothing wrong with allowing a bomber to be a bit more independent. The RSS allowed a bit more of that."
I definately see your point, it is a good one, since I even compared to swordsmans and how they cope with range. Honestly, I guess if they were willing to do so, they could slam a DA charge into a switch somewhat far away or kill those gun puppies guarded by spikes. However, Obsidius made a really good point as well:
Obsidius said: "I do think Dancinjen has a point in that a lot of the guns have way better ranged functionality than the current RSS, but even then, bombs do have some form of range with their AoE radius; it's just not as a effective or as easily executable as guns. Honestly, I don't think being unable to hit a Gun Puppy across a chasm is a huge deal."
Maybe it will be hard to get used to less range especially when RSS offered so much range, farther than any current gun. If you plant a bomb such as a nitronome, you've got quite a bit of range to it. The shard bombs included, but not quite as much I don't think: not 100% sure.
I guess it is fair that bombers could do so as well with a very specific bomb. This bomb would no longer clip one monster 8 times for a possible one hit KO, of course. Maybe something that devs can add in the future, however not put as much emphasis on it as they did the old shard bombs: Make it like the winmillion for swordsman?
The main point I see here for the developers is not to get rid of these changes just to keep a Bomber's range, but to instead add a bomb specifically for range and not for DPS like the old shard bombs were AND go through with these changes as well, to sum up.
"I don't despise the bombs I think that if there are a few little changes it could REALLY make the bomb more effective. The bomb just is not effective. Fun... heck yes. Effective? no. Why can't I have them fun and effective? :)"
I will be doing some more testing with the shard bombs today, probably quite a bit. What I do remember is that if you try and use the bomb just to take out one measly monster, it isn't effective. However, if you cloud a giant group of monsters with many shard bombs, they will get knocked about inside and not be able to escape, causing them gradually (and quickly, as I remember) turn into a shiny pile of loot and monster bits.
I also left a few tips in your feedback thread which you already were doing / were doing better so I don't think I can do anything, perhaps just test more with this.
I would confidently say that the AoE damage of the new shard bombs is not too low and not too high. I think it is just right, but I still need to do more testing to see.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 11:37
#5
Please don't miss where I
Please don't miss where I said this. "The range issue is not a big deal to me mainly because swords don't have a big range either when it comes to projectiles. I won't argue with the RSS range was a bit too large."
The range doesn't bother me. I don't hit gun puppies from across the map that had NEVER been my bombing style. I get right on top of gun puppies or polyps and kill them that way. This is not a new tactic to me. I use this style in lockdown too. I get right up in the players face instead of going for the long range attacks. Range in no way affects how I play.
The thing when I say the "radius isn't big enough" is that it's a blast bomb. The shards flying out is not causing the damage, it's the blast. IF the blast is so small the monsters run through it and they don't get hit... ever. Which makes the bomb... useless. Also the fuse time makes it a bit worse. If the fuse time was made shorter on both blasts it would really really help this bomb. This is the one thing I am going to push to adjust on the bomb at this point.
The unpredictability of it and the flashes... might be a bit too much... but it's enjoyable. Yeah... enemies are flying everywhere and not so good for team playing... lol. But I can work with that.
I'm not even asking for a bomb that KO's in one hit. My rss never KO'd in one hit and I was max damage and max ctr in the main server and I still never have. Maybe i'm completely clueless in how they are doing that ... i don't know. But It has never happened to me on any bomb.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 11:42
#6
Sorry for double post I will
Sorry for double post I will say this..
This style of bomb is not meant to be a stand alone bomb.
I mean this in that if you aren't going to stack this bomb and over lap the fuse times and what not then the bomb is completely useless. This bomb is meant to be moved around and overlapped and stacked. It does change most play styles and it changes how some swords people will use bombs in that manner. They won't be able to ust drop this bomb once and call it effective... it won't be. If the bomb is stacked it's decent.
Edit: This bomb doesn't change my playstyle. I've always done this in a run... so this bomb actually fits my play style perfectly. Which is why i want this bomb to work so badly.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 12:20
#7
So the devs just need to
So the devs just need to simply reduce the fuse time,
but is the damage output not great enough as well? I noticed you said it is decent when stacked but I would imagine it would be much easier to hit monsters if the fuse time is reduced possibly negating any necessary damage buff.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 12:39
#8
I can't gauge the damage
I can't gauge the damage exactly right now. I'm running in t1 or t2 i don't know. I've been doing missions trying to get the access to t3, while using my bombs. :D
Yeah i think fuse time on both blasts, the initial and shard blast needs to be reduced just a bit... the initial i think should be similar to the rss. I think the initial blast on the rss was like one second... it was almost immediate. Then the shard should be like only half a second after that. There should be a long waiting period between both blasts.
But then... that sets the ctr off. So I've ran all kinds of scenerios in my head on how to fix this.
Right now the way it is is that it's stackable. If we change any of the timing on the bomb... the bombs will go off before the next bomb gets charged. Does that make sense?
So right now it's ( on max ctr)
2 to charge
2 for first blast
2 for shard blast
If it was ( on max ctr)
2 to charge
1 first blast
.5 shard blast
that's not enough time to get a second bomb charged and stacked. I think they meant this bomb to be able to be stacked in this way to make it effective.
I really need to test the damage in t3 to know more.
Thinking about all that makes me think that if the radius was just a bit bigger. Not a lot... just a bit bigger.
Edit: sorry if i sound like i'm rambling. lol...
sam, 07/14/2012 - 12:43
#9
Obsidius suggested that we
Obsidius suggested that we increase the range by increasing the space between the initial blast and the charge, but to also increase the radius of all of the blasts to help make up for this.
Would this work in a way that makes it more like DBB / Nitronome in range without hurting its effectiveness?
Since the intention is to stack these bombs, would possibly just a damage buff suffice to make up for a slow fuse time?
sam, 07/14/2012 - 12:57
#10
i agree with what he said
i agree with what he said about that. It seems very logical.
What i have a problem with is that the shard goes through the enemies. They can just walk through it before a blast ever even takes place. That's why i suggested (kinda jokingly) that the shard should stick to the monsters. The problem withthat is... if they happen to go through more than one shard will more than one shard stick? because that is unfair. I think only one shard... or a automatic detonation if they run through it. I don't know... I just don't like that it can be ran through like that... with no consequences.
I think either do what obsidius suggests or increase the damage. Lets leave the timing alone.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 12:58
#11
Damage buffs to make up for
Damage buffs to make up for fuse times? No no no no no no no. There is no replacement for the shards exploding properly when monsters are on top of them. More damage doesn't fix the problem. It just makes the monsters take one or two less hits when they FINALLY get hit by a shard or two.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 13:04
#12
So what do you think needs to
So what do you think needs to be changed?
I really don't want to mess with the fuse time because of what is said above... but maybe that is what it needs to be.
The sticking to monsters really might be the way to go. Keep it as is on everything but if a monster runs through a flying shard the shard will stick to them. That way you have a guaranteed hit.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 13:08
#13
True, I guess.
I don't really
True, I guess.
I don't really see why we can't make it not stack, I mean... it might make it more PvE-oriented than PvP since it is more predictable, but this is a PvE-oriented game.
Would it really be that bad (due to it not being stackable) if we reduced the fuse time as Dancinjen proposed?
"If it was ( on max ctr)
2 to charge
1 first blast
.5 shard blast"
I tend to think of DR to be more of the stacking type bomb.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 13:13
#14
yeah see in pvp the not
yeah see in pvp the not stacking wouldn't work. you see how people dodge the nitro and you can't stack nitro.
I want it to stack to make it more effective in that scenario. Otherwise i would be okay with it not stacking.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 13:16
#15
Yeah, is there any other way
Yeah, is there any other way to help buff these bombs in PvE without reducing their PvP effectiveness?
So far, I see reducing the charge time by a small amount just so that we can stack more? Lol.
sam, 07/14/2012 - 18:50
#16
I will only speak to your
I will only speak to your comment on range.
I do get what you're saying about range, but there's one adjustment I would like to see. bombers are now the only class that can't hit over a low wall. It would be nice if the new shards could jump a low all, and only vanished when faced with a full wall. Swords can reach over walls, and so can guns, so why can't the shards hop it?
sam, 07/14/2012 - 21:02
#17
What do you mean, they are
What do you mean, they are the the only class that can't hit over a "low wall"?
Other bombs, like nitronome's blast, can hit over "low walls", or are you talking about something I have no idea about?
dim, 07/15/2012 - 21:25
#18
Unlike Swordsman, bombers
Unlike Swordsman, bombers haven't had the time to cope with this rangelessness. Once they get used to it, they will be like "yeah mmerphlblerflllgerble whatever I'll throw in a gun" just like most swordsman have. No, swordsman do not use DA charges to always hit switches / take out gun puppies. I see swordsmans WITH DAs use pots to hit switches, and would rather run up to a gun puppy to kill it.
You do realize that throwing a pot is typically faster or as fast as hitting it with a charged bomb, right? It's exactly like a DA user using their charge to hit switches.
This whole argument that shards are a substitute for guns is incredibly stupid. A shard bomb takes forever to kill something 1 shard at a time, while a gun takes a few seconds. A gun shoots switches far more efficiently. I could hit maybe 6 switches using a gun in the time it takes a shard bomb to hit 1, but who cares anyways? Switches aren't such a hugh part of gameplay to make not using a gun more than a minor inconvenience.
lun, 07/16/2012 - 01:22
#19
-
The new test server update brought new aspects to shards bomb, yes it looks awesome, especially the spikes and ring of explosion, but heres another problem, for pure bombers, how are they gonna hit levers and break minerals with ease? not planting millions of haze bombers to break 1 singly ore? Or just spam the screen with the 'blue screen' bomb? As a person who owns all bombs myself I think most bombers wont like this chage b/c theres no other bomb that does well in breaking those minerals and hitting switches.
:| but i like the change, the old shards bomb was annoying in pvp cuz aussies suffer with 1bar, at least the change will decrease people who blindly plant them everywhere.
lun, 07/16/2012 - 04:10
#20
I'll have to try with a nitro
I'll have to try with a nitro again, but I'm pretty sure I don't hit things over low walls with my nitro.
lun, 07/16/2012 - 23:12
#21
bombers
need a DPS bomb that can let you be both:
Effective in a group without jacking up everyone else's game (nitronome)
Effective going solo as a pure bomber. (being strong versus mobs is great, but i need a better way to deal 1-on-1 damage with a boss or semi-boss).
Its kinda lame if a pure bomber has to go pure bomb and then pull out his sword for any meaningful battle (or kite for a 45 minute vanakill)
I haven't used the new bomb yet, and won't until they inevitably adjust them in the real servers. But I worry that this change is turning the bomber into even more of a support character but not addressing the fundamental flaw of this: in PvE 90% of people don't want or even like the support a bomber adds to the party. Even with shiver locking vana, its great at first but after a time its less fun then "really playing" him.
So by taking away one of the few weapons a bomber had to play solo with, i'm seeing less and less of a home for bombers. Most parties don't really want/like them in the group, and now solo'ing will be made all the more difficult.
i'll suspend final judgment until i see the bomb for myself, but theoretically, i'm not a fan as of now.
(same goes for DPS in LD, but at least the bomber is an adequate support character over there).
lun, 07/16/2012 - 23:29
#22
RSS vs Guns
**Ahem. I have a huge collections of really fun, and really good guns. I have a growing collection of bombs. I have spent time as a pure swordie, switched to pure bomber, and am more or less a gunner now (with exceptions when running the Danger Mission LoA. I need my Voltedge and more DPS :)
I get the RSS didn't function in the spirit of a bomber. But here is why i feel it was okay:
First:
Digress, i get gunners being a bit miffed that the best ranged weapon on the game was a bomb, i do, i get it. But realistically speaking, it doesn't matter. Its like if gunners got a gun that had infinite range, but a 1 bullet clip, and a 5 second reload time. A split damage gun than did the damage of a single shard. You wouldn't be like "omg, gotta save a slot for the shard gun!!!! it has infinite range!!" Oh, and could only shoot in preprogrammed directions. Now, i get you'll say that "the RSS shoots in every direction!!" and true. But it only serves as a bomb like that at the center of its explosion.
Second:
Bombers should be granted one "long range" bomb. Not infinite range, or the could be a damage multiplier so that damage was inversely proportional to how far the shard traveled. further away, less damage. But bombers do need a "ranged" option.
Guns:
polaris--shoots bombs.
Alchemers--have the same multi direction bulllets (on impact) as the RSS
nuetrelizer--you can charge shoot bombs on to your opponent and then detonate that "bomb" from across the screen.
Swords:
DA--shoots 3 shots!! this is what gunners should be miffed about
Suduraska--super long ranged charge attack that basically blows up a small diameter bomb at the end
Brandish--darn near a cross b/w bomb and gun on charge. like a linear napalm bomb for combusted, etc... has stronger status affects then bombs!!!! (even tho half the bombs are only status affect gear)
And lastly, the longest range and most deadly weapon in the world is the nuclear bomb XD
not a gun
certainly not a sword
mar, 07/17/2012 - 12:20
#23
/agree
Yup, I agree with most of this, play style and gunner/bomber mechanics aside. When it comes to this bomb, you guys have made some good points.
jeu, 07/19/2012 - 20:06
#24
SUNSHAAAAAAAAARDS
Right, my first feedback was pretty whiny. I openly admit, it was, and I apologize.
Now, first, on your whole "RSS makes Gunners feel useless" thing... if they really made you feel useless, please improve. What I'm worried about is Turrets over pits. Swordies can hit Gun Pups across wide pits with some of their weapons' charge attacks (read: Divine Avenger mega-bullets). Gunners can... well, duh, of course they can hit Gun Pups across pits with their weapons, and are the best at it- as they should be. Why is an itty bitty fragmentation grenade- one that has both an explosion and some short-range, initially-spread-out (as in NOT HITTING WITH DERPBILLION FRAGMENTS) Normal-damage fragments such a terrible idea? They can even be randomized instead of 8 compass directions, as long as they can hit something! Keep in mind that Bombers only have a charge attack; no quick poke for us!
I am aware that I can pack a Polaris, but what do I give up? The Shard Bomb? The DBB? The Voltaic Tempest or Electron Vortex? But they're ALL SO MUCH FUN! Just a nice alternative, nothing that makes me seem like a gunslinger in disguise. (As if I ever did...)
The disappearing shards are hopefully a bug. I understand that one could, in theory, if they were COMPLETELY SURROUNDED BY TROJANS, could land 8 shards with one bomb. Yeah, good luck trying to get un-surrounded in the time it takes for the Shards to blow up, without a sword falling on your face. Instead, I think the shards should maintain their velocities when they hit a wall; a shard going north hitting a horizontal wall will stay there until it lands, while a shard going north-west hitting the same wall will continue west until it lands.
As far as enemies having shards fly over them, one idea is to cause a 1-damage knockback when a shard hits a target; this SHOULD NEVER TRIGGER INVINCIBILITY FRAMES for obvious reasons, and perhaps not interrupt, or (to give bombers their Greaver killer back) interrupt only those attacks that are interrupted by ANY damage.
Now, the damage, range, and explosion speed. The damage is probably effective enough... but could use a little improvement. The explosions of the shards and initial blast may or may not have a "dead zone"; however, the fact remains that your average Gremlin, Slime, Mecha Knight, or Skolver Zombie will just walk out of the way before the shards go boom. The solution? Decrease the explosion time of the shards. Half their current time should suffice.
As far as Lockdown goes? I'm gonna miss the shard flooding of RSS and the surprise tasing of ISB, but the Shard Bombs now will have their own tricky little combos. Place Shards, cloak, place Nitro as the shards are going off? Boomboomboom. And there's no armor set that resists Shadow and Shock at once... Muahahahaha. There's at least one bomber in my guild... oh, man, this is gonna be good.
That all said, the shards are certainly a truckload of fun, and I do like the presence of really big 'sprosions. Now give the BAB a super short fuse to fit its theme and put it on par with Nitro!
sam, 07/21/2012 - 07:51
#25
Honestly, when I tried out
Honestly, when I tried out the new shard bombs, they had all of the original risks of RSS but none of the rewards (you need to get in close to be most effective but the damage is so poor anyway). What I do not like about them is even if say the speed/damage of the explosions is increased, then all six shard bombs will be directly competing with nitro/DBB (maybe even Ash of Angi) in terms of role. The new mechanic just seems redundant and feels like a way for OOO to nerf RSS instead of making enemies more difficult to approach.
What I liked about the original RSS was that it was able to fill a different niche than the nitro/DDB. RSS with its concentrated damage was good versus small groups of enemies. Nitro with its knockback and AOE was much better versus larger groups or in hazardous areas with little room to maneuver. If knockback was a problem, you could use Ash of Angi or Voltaric Tempest for safe kiting damage.
I would prefer that RSS (elemental/pierce) and ISB (with shadow/shock damage) remain as projectile bombs while the other four are revamped. It you insist on changing them though, then greatly speed up that blast process and pack the secondary shards close together to allow them to multi-hit single targets. Otherwise, no matter what you do with the damage or speed currently, you will just end up with a better or worse nitronome (SIX more nitronomes actually).
sam, 07/21/2012 - 11:48
#26
"RSS makes Gunners feel
"RSS makes Gunners feel useless"
There is a difference between useless and less useful, Doctor. Please don't over exaggerate, as I know you have calmed down.
"Gunners can... well, duh, of course they can hit Gun Pups across pits with their weapons, and are the best at it- as they should be. "
The shards of an old shard bomb had a larger range than any gun in the game. A bomb could reach out to where no other gun could.
"nothing that makes me seem like a gunslinger in disguise."
Over exaggerating again. Full bomber gear + likely at least one bomber trink + 3 bombs + 1 gun =/= a gunner in disguise. I take a toxic bomb with me usually, and I don't view myself as a bomber in disguise when in that loadout.
And for everything related to damage and underpowered mechanics, that will have to be balanced by the developers before they go through with the changes.
dim, 07/22/2012 - 11:22
#27
Since I've been mentioned here
Allow me to re-iterate a few suggestion I made, so as to both provide a broader understanding of the reasons behind them, as well as to give players and the devs some food for thought.
One of the reasons for the range increase, in aside from making feel like it packed packed a punch over the area like Nitro, is the reasons that Nick used:
"Our intention with the shard line was to have them ‘spread out’ and hit multiple targets at once."
Now for the record, most damage bombs like Nitro and DBB can already hit multiple targets once, so I kinda assumed that the shards would spread out in a way that their own explosion radius would go farther that the blast-style bombs, respective of the star level.
Looking back on this and seeing how the current shards operate, I think the real intention was that each shard could pack a punch unlike the blast-style bombs, almost like a mulitshot polaris but without the enemy collision factor; and that punch could especially occur if the explosions overlapped. I like the overlapping part a lot; it means if I'm good on placement, which is one part of bombing, then I can strike some good bang for buck on a few enemies, as well as a specified enemy. Adjust the timing factor, especially by fuse time and possibly by charge time, then you have a bomb that can have mildy good DPS without too much party disruption (Something I believe bombers have been wanting), while still have enough room to hit multiple groups well (Something I like to do).
In some ways, I actually retract from increasing the spread of the shards, at least not so far that it goes over Nitro range (Some range increase is still need, especially with the shard radius to make it slightly easier to overlap explosion). The reason being is that would actually detract from the common risk/reward factor of bombs in general, and bombers could just spam this bomb at a distance like's actually polaris, and easily avoid attacks from Fiends.
Speaking of which, Fiends are kind of central to this bomb change (RSS specifically), and we all know why. The question then comes is HOW exactly can be this bomb be a fiend killer and fill in that spot better than DBB, without making DBB seem silly to use against them. The way I see it, DBB can still act as the general pierce nuke it is, with RSS not only having better damage vs fiends, but also being able to also disrupt them a lot more; the two stages, with the stun being the icing on the cake (Assuming the devs fix the bug), can have a good chance in catching them while attacking, much like DVS.
More over, if the speed is done right, this would give bombers something that allows them to react fast, which is what you need with fiends (Greavers and Devilites being the most common, and troublesome, of the family). It's why Flourishes are so handy for them; also, regarding the other bombs, you could effectively shut down an entire corner of turrets in the third stage of an arena (That's 2-3 turrets), and still have enough leeway to dodge incoming fire from others.
This could potentially sound like a balance nightmare, but with the test server here, I honestly think it's all doable. On final note, I like to the think the redundant bomb series more as an experimentation than a test, since there's so many variants. That is all.
mer, 08/08/2012 - 20:30
#28
To OP
Yes I understand you are a gunner. So let's hear from a full time bomber (me). I started being a bomber since Day One I played SK.
Why we need the old RSS? Range is one thing. But not to use it like a gun, but as a "Swiss Army Knife". We use that to hit switches without the need to carry a gun. Why is this important, you ask? Why not just bring a gun, you say?
Because as bombers, we are already sort of forced to use all four slots for bombs because all of our bombs are pretty specialized. So to achieve best effect, it's better to focus our gears to boost our bomb effectiveness, and we can carry 4 bombs around. And when everyone in your party just drop dead and there is this crazy zombie that keep chasing you but it's almost dead. What do you do? Shiver Mist? AoA? DBB? Nope, we just RSS the last shot because it's fast.
So don't overlook this role of Swiss Army Knife. As bombers, we have one big disadvantage that you gunners don't have. We tend to gain enmity a lot faster because we do AoE. And as a result, there are tight situation we need a bomb like RSS so that we can survive longer and without losing heat just because our job puts us at higher risk.
You have some good points. But without being a full bomber yourself, I am afraid you missed the point.
mer, 08/22/2012 - 17:40
#29
If you have the weapon slot
If you have the weapon slot to include your "Swiss Army Knife", then you have the weapon slot to include a gun instead. Range is your only argument for purpose to bring RSS as a "Swiss Army Knife", and a gun covers that use. RSS requires a single weapon slot, and guns require a single weapon slot as well.
Another use for the RSS is prancing around and OHKOing things. This was not intended by the developers.
Another possible use for the RSS is AoE, but hey, the developers are making new shard bombs for that. Do they suck? Yes. Are they going to get buffed? Yes.
And yes. A gun is also an option for safety at range. Not benefitting from your bomb bonuses is not a great argument, because guns are designed to kill things at range and will then deal more damage than a bomb even if it doesn't benefit from your bomb bonuses.
Many bombers are stuck on the tradition of pure bombing. Believe it or not, folks, but both gunners' and swordsmen's optimal loadouts can include something that isn't a gun or a sword as well. We can be hindered without these sidearms as well.
You have an interesting point of view on things and I am not saying this to spark a debate or anything like that. I really have honest intentions about what I'm going to say and I hope it is taken seriously.
This:
"Currently, RSS and other gun-like bombs are diminishing the usefulness of a gunner because I am not as needed in your party. In fact, it diminishes the use of guns themselves, especially with a range that is even greater than every gun in the game."
I do not agree with this in the least bit. It's because gunners will always be more effective and useful than a bomber with an RSS. If you do not feel effective or useful as a gunner compared to a person with an RSS... then maybe there needs to be an evaluation of how you gun. There is nothing wrong with allowing a bomber to be a bit more independent. The RSS allowed a bit more of that. Granted I didn't use the RSS for months and I was pure bomber. The only time I really even use the RSS is in lockdown, or against trojans. Even then a single blitz charge can take out a trojan compared to my multiple shard hits that I have to make to kill a trojan.
I like some of what you said and I do agree. The range issue is not a big deal to me mainly because swords don't have a big range either when it comes to projectiles. I won't argue with the RSS range was a bit too large.
I don't despise the bombs I think that if there are a few little changes it could REALLY make the bomb more effective. The bomb just is not effective. Fun... heck yes. Effective? no. Why can't I have them fun and effective? :)