Hand guns are weak compared to the Bombs and Swords they can only attack one enemy.
Yes I know how many times this has been suggested.
Lets Buff the gunners
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 14:35
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 15:28
#2
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Bombs are more underpowered than guns. Guns can attack two enemies at once if you aim properly. As of now, guns aren't terribly underpowered for PvP and somewhat situational for PvE.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 16:00
#3
Thats six. only 6 good guns.
Thats six. only 6 good guns.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 16:09
#4
-
- Blitz
- Plague
- VPepper
-
- Polaris
- Supernova
-
- Nova
- Umbra
- Magma
- Storm
- Hail
-
- Peacemaker
- Sentenza
Valiance is also an amazing sidearm.
Callahan excels at fiends and beasts.
In fact, the only not good gun is Iron Slug and maybe Catalyzers. Three out of seventeen 5* guns are not as good as the rest.
What do bombs have? Nitronome with its obnoxious animation, Barrage with pure pierce, Vaporizers just for the status cloud, Graviton and Electron for suction and a little damage, the expansion exclusive Seerus bombs which were nerfed, and the near useless shard bombs. How many 5* bombs do we have that are good for damage and practical to use remotely close to those fourteen of seventeen 5* guns? Nitronome and Barrage. The only practical difference between them is damage type.
Now try to come up with a reason guns deserve more. I dare you.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 16:12
#5
NINJA'ed BY LUIGI
Your wrong, its 9
Polaris
Blitz
AP
Sentenza
Alchemers (5)(Fire, Prismatic, Volt, Frost, Umbra)
Also, count how many DECENT 5* guns are there:
Pepperbox
Supernova
Biohazard
So technically there are 11 GOOD-DECENT guns out there
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 16:46
#6
Guns are awesome.
The most powerful Piercing-damage weapon in the game is a gun, the Blitz Needle.
Aside from the Blitz, other guns, like the Alchemer series, still do great damage, and can do that damage from a distance, meaning you trade power for survivability. The Antigua line (with the Elemental-damage Argent Peacemaker and the Shadow-damage Sentenza) fires very quickly while still being mobile. The Valiance is an excellent sidearm, and the Polaris line is, hands-down, THE turret killer, and generally great when the **** hits the fan. Don't mindlessly spam Pulsars, as this will send monsters flying everywhere, but Polaris is also a great utility for pushing baddies away if used well. (It also combos well with the Graviton Vortex.)
No, if anything needs some love, it's bombs. We demomen can hold our own in the Clockworks... but have you seen us try to deal damage in a Lockdown match? It's not pretty.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 17:38
#7
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There are only four good swords (Hammer, toothpick, brandish, sealed). For guns...
Drivers
Antiguas
Valiance
That's three guns that work like guns realistically would. There's also
Blitz Needle
Polaris
which work in other ways.
Furthermore, you clearly can't count. He listed four guns, not six.
Edit: I'm just now realizing I didn't include specialty swords, so here's a small list:
FoV
DVS
Neither of which is a good idea for standard combat. But eh, blitz isn't either. Unless what you're fighting is ridiculously easy. Which is like half the monsters in the game...
Moar edit:
I'm starting to see his point. Both guns and swords have attacks that do AoE. This leaves guns very out of the picture when confronted with a large mob. Sure, polaris has a bit of AoE, but not much. And then catalyzer just sucks too much for anyone to carry. However - swords only deal (significant) AoE on charge. What if OOO changed some gun charges (cough, polaris) to do AoE?
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 17:20
#8
Lets do some math!
Okay then, so:
Guns VS Bombs, lets take two weapons that were popular for Vanaduke runs and compare the damage output.
AP and RSS.
AP: Six shot clip, does roughly 140 damage range at max heat on things weak to elemental in Depths 27-28. This equates to around 840 damage per clip, and smart gunners out there stop shooting at the 5th shot so they don't have to endure the reload animation.
RSS: Shoots in 8 directions, does ~260 damage per shard on things hit (going on speculation here) that are weak to it (Fiends/Undead, especially fiends). Have it in the right place, and all 8 hit, that is a huge ~2080 damage at one point in time.
So, RSS is pretty strong in the right hands. But wait, bombs are still underpowered. Why? Oh wait, because they took away what RSS USED to be, and gave us what we have now...
Currently, the only strong bombs out there do normal and piercing damage. the expansion only shadow one does mediocre damage, and the new shards (from what I hear) don't do as much damage as they probably could. This means Bombers do not have anything truly effecting at killing Constructs/Undead unless they want to mist the enemies to death. Status bombs are great, but a pure damage bomb is also nice.
I like bombers myself, I love support bombers, but I also like bombers who can kill as well and/or better than us swordies and gunners. And currently, they don't have as many tools to do that as we do, so I'd say that bombers could get a bit of love.
((Side note, if anyone has any accurate data on damage, would be appreciated, never got to use the old RSS myself.))
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 18:29
#9
@Scarred-Knight
You should be
@Scarred-Knight
You should be comparing RSS to Alchemers, since Alchemy's charge attack is basically the same as the RSS but ranged. You can easily oneshot gunpuppies and other types of enemies with proper aim.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 18:31
#10
Woah, Guns? AoE?
First off, Pulsars do not need a long range bomb charge that will make them even more OP than they already are.
Giving AoE to guns will overshadow bombs even more because AoE is the whole point of having bombs. Large mobs are what bombs are good against, you just simply hit them with the edge of your nitro until they all die at once, considering they were coming from one direction, if not then it still works, but is a bit more risky.
Overall, bombs need buffs, I can one-hit things with my Voltech charge, but never with any of my bombs. (I'm not saying bombs should one-hit, but RSS used to be able to do that)
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 18:46
#11
It's not about bombs being
It's not about bombs being needing to be able to one-hit. Sure, RSS used to could do that, but only if all/most of the shards hit a single target. RSS was more of a grenade than a bomb.
Bombs don't need a "buff" as such, they just need a simple damage increase, as the time it takes to bomb a group of 10 enemies is still significantly longer than it is to just shoot or stab those same enemies.
(whereas it used to be that you could kill a large group faster than 1v1ing them all, but 1v1ing would be embarassingly slow and painful)
Guns surely do not need a major buff, certainly not as much as bombs. It's possible to throw together a useful gunning or stabbing set with a variety of weapons that can be used anywhere very quickly and easily. Making an effective bombing loadout requires much more time and effort and certainly to acquire more than 3/4 bombs total.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 19:56
#12
...
That is why I put "I'm not saying bombs should one-hit" in parenthesis at the end there...
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 20:05
#13
Catalyzers are great! You
Catalyzers are great! You guys need to actually try a Bio or Neut (particularly Neut) before you rag on it. There isn't a more tactically powerful item in the game.
Thu, 10/04/2012 - 20:15
#14
I was meaning that even if
I was meaning that even if RSS came back and still couldn't onehit stuff, it wouldn't alone qualify bombs as underpowered, as their power and ability is supposed to come from the ability to aoe effectively, which the new shards are utterly incapable of doing thanks to their hopeless damage.
S'all I meant~
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 01:53
#15
Processing Thoughts of You Always
@Dukeplatypus: Maybe, but they take so dang long to kill stuff in general.
It's not that they're bad, just outclassed by other weapons.
I could OHKO enemies with an Umbra rather than trying to set up charges with my Biohazard. In addition, its shots are pigslow, making it difficult to set up a nice big explosion. If it had a chain reaction ability to set off several charges, then it would be better, but in general the weapon is outdone by most other shadow weapons. (With the possible exception of the Dark Matter Bomb.)
@OP: I have never found guns to be weak. In fact, I frequently use my Nova Driver to take out groups of slags, at which it excels, and my Polaris has been capable of suppressing and taking out 3 turrets at once. With the damage buff they got, guns, in the main, are fine, although there are certain overpowered/underpowered guns which could use tweaking specifically (Polaris, Blitz Needle, Iron Slug/Callahan, Neutraliser/Biohazard)
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 01:58
#16
The papaya /thinks......................
*Mutters under breath* Would be nice to have a 2* version of the Gunslinger set, as well as a Piercing Gun that actually lets you move when firing, maybe even a set that can only be obtained from the Shadow Lair (since bomber sets and swordmaster sets can be crafted there)
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 02:17
#17
Processing Thoughts of You Always
True, but that isn't what the OP actually suggested :B
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 11:24
#18
Not likely to happen anytime
Not likely to happen anytime soon though, as those suggestions were being ferociously made long before they came in and made changes to gunners :(
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 11:33
#19
compared to the Ban Stick, EVERY weapon is seriously under powered.
So no idea what theses Unofficial Weapon Analysts are talking about.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 12:28
#20
The banstick isn't a valid weapon for comparison, because normal players have no access to it.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 12:42
#21
yep, still cant understand what you guys are talking about.
Note: does the Hammer or RD count as a valid weapon even though 90% of us can not acquire it?
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 12:49
#22
Buff the bombers first.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 12:49
#23
Buff the bombers first.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 12:54
#24
1. Steam.
2. Lockboxes. Rarely. Or so I hear.
3. I never specified what a 'normal' player was, fine, but it should be easy to see that I meant non-GM players, given your use of the banstick as a point of argument.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 14:07
#25
Handguns are fine.
Buff
Handguns are fine.
Buff bombs.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 14:13
#26
I think Rawr just gave the
I think Rawr just gave the most succinct answer needed for this thread, tbh. Any questions can probably be answered by previous posts.
Time to let the phantoms have this thread~
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:34
#27
--
Sorry for the slow response, been busy.
I disagree that the advantage of bombs is that they do AoE. This restricts other categories; bombs shouldn't have to be better at AoE than other types of weapons. Bombs' only defining feature, in my opinion, is that they should have a delayed effect. Guns have an effect that is displaced along distance. If you find any other dimensions, let me know.
So yeah, with OOO's current view of weapon types, AoE guns make bombs pointless. But I disagree with their views on weapon types, so yeah.
Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:02
#28
Bombs only defining factor is
Bombs only defining factor is that they are aoe.
Bombs: aoe
Guns; Ranged
Swords: CC
You can get a mash-up to a degree, such as alchs being able to aoe, but they don't aoe as effectively as any regular bomb. Alchs, being ideal for small groups (say 2/3) whereas bombs being ideal for very large groups (10?).
Remember that all weapons have charges, and bombs even used to have a normal attack; you can't use the charge as the only defining factor for a bomb when weapons such as blitz are used almost exclusively for the charge attack.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 07:40
#29
On the point of catalyzers
If you are ever bringing a gun to Jelly King, biohazard is the best gun for it. It does shadow damage, poisons, and has a AoE effects I can't think of a better gun for jelly king.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 08:49
#30
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@darkbrady
did you read my post? it says that they have the feature of a delayed effect.
Also, though I think it is a mistake to make this be the case, bombs can only use charge attacks. I'm not suggesting that all bombs need to have access to both types of attacks, but rather that some weapons should have access to only standard attacks, some only have access to charged attacks, and some to both.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:46
#31
@Spyash:Actually, Pepperbox
@Spyash:
Actually, Pepperbox is the best JK-killing gun in the game.
@Addisond:
Forgive me if I misunderstood you, I just commented on what I interpreted your statement as. And right now I've read over this post about ten times trying to wrap my head; it seems I've not woken up properly, yet~
All I was meaning is that no matter if other weapons have AoE effects, bombs are (or in the very least should) be able to out-AoE everything else. A nitro should be able to kill ten slimes faster than a Levi, but a Levi should be able to kill 1 faster than a Nitro, and a ...there's no normal type alch. Well, if tehre was a normal type Alch, that'd be ideal for killing 3/4 slimes.
Buuuuut that bombs no longer match this criteria, and although the shard bombs would be ideal for this, the damage is so pitiful that you'd still just be faster using the guns/swords, only showing that bombs are UP out the [cog] for the most part and definitely deserve more attention than guns at this junction.
Did I disagree again? ...Or agree? I'm really not tryin' to take the piss, I'm just not thinking straight at all right now.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:23
#32
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@darkbrady
I'm not trying to offend you either, it's fine if you misinterpreted my post.
Essentially, you're saying that bombs should be better at AoE than other weapon types. I agree that bombs should be better at AoE than other weapons if OOO keeps bombs strictly AoE weapons. But I don't want OOO to do that. So yeah, given how bombs currently work, bombs should definitely be better at AoE than any other weapon type.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:42
#33
-.-
There is no need to buff anything. Bombers can spam their nitros and hazes. Gunners can just spam Polaris and never get hit in PvE. Swordies can hack and slash which leads them to kill many in consecutive hits.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:46
#34
Bombers can spam their nitros
Bombers can spam their nitros and hazes
*ahem*...
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:01
#35
Have you've even been playing as us for the past year?
Nitros are hated.
Losing our only ranged weapon.
Missing out on DPS weapons that are decent.
Pah.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:01
#36
Have you've even been playing as us for the past year?
Nitros are hated.
Losing our only ranged weapon.
Missing out on DPS weapons that are decent.
Pah.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:10
#37
I think I understand what Addisond means.
Bombs do not have to be only good at area of effect. The main appeal to using them is delayed gratification, such as the charge required to prepare to attack instead of vomiting bombs everywhere like a drunk cyclops.
Another example of bombs used for delayed gratification is, again, the Rogue class in Wakfu; more specifically the two fire element skills which allow you to place a bomb on the map. This bomb has a preset amount of "charges", which deteriorate by a number of ways (being walked over, being attacked, the user uses the detonation skill which actually does not automatically detonate but simply lowers the charge count with every use) and will damage an area of effect when detonated. However, those bombs can also be used to create a "firewall" glyph (area of effect) which harms anything that enters the area indicated with flame icons on the spaces. The charge count can be increased by the Rogue using another fire skill to give the bomb an extra charge by attacking the bomb with it, damaging anything which so happens to be standing on that particular bomb, instead of taking away a charge.
Even if the primary appeal to bombs is delayed gratification, area of effect is still the secondary.
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:54
#38
@luguiru
Yeah, my point is that that is how I feel the weapon types should be set up - swords do damage nearby, guns do damage at a distance, and bombs do damage with a delay. Weapons can overlap in function, so there can be a gun that has a delayed effect or a sword that has a charge with range. This means that you can construct any mechanic and it can still fall into one of the three types, giving OOO access to an infinite variety of weapons.
"Hand guns
they can only attack one enemy"
Blitz.
Pulsar.
Alchemers.
"Hand guns are weak compared to the Bombs"
Blitz.
Alchemers.
Antiguas.
Are you sure you play the same game?