Spiral Knights - Here are some ideas concerning cosmetic changes that may improve the game, and possibly make you more profit. (subject changed)

Here are some ideas concerning cosmetic changes that may improve the game, and possibly make you more profit. (subject changed)

14 replies [Last post]

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:24

Theozai

TLDR; Mirrored lock boxes and the introduction of different eye choices are really nice, it'd be even nicer though if either A) Mirrored Lock boxes dropped almost as often as Iron Lock Boxes, since they essentially do the same thing (offer pure aesthetic changes), or B) offer perma unlock for eyes and other mirrored lock box rewards, so that once your knight uses a new eye choice, you can go back and change it whenever you want by preference, allowing you to really control your look, and further compliment your armor choices and C) make other types of model modifiers to increase character customization further, such as "Stocky" and "Slim", and maybe even stuff like "color inversion" so that the personal color is filling up the area around the eyes, and the eyes become white with a stylized border/outline (really use some lateral thinking if you can to think outside the box if you will.)

p.s. feel free to use options A-C at the same time for best results.

Now I've been playing for a little over a year now, and I remember when accessories were new, and there weren't that many of them. that said, back when it was simple, you could get the accessories you wanted pretty easily, with the exception of auras (seeing as how the only one with a common drop rate in relation to the others was haunted, and that was still a very rare drop). that said, I was willing to overlook this, but when you consider that everyone wants an aura, and they are bound to whatever one piece of armor you put it on, it's like having slots on armor that you either know your never going to fill, or your just trying to pick one set your going to primarily use so you can eventually afford to fully deck it out. This isn't bad, but it does change the economy for players looking for aesthetic changes, when aesthetics are such a minor part of the game. Ironically, you (Three Rings) probably get most of your money from players seeking just that, and weapon/armor crafting junkies/UV ticket buyers.

that said, those cosmetic changes, such as auras and other rare accessories, make you look really cool/powerful, so I get why having the drop rate for them should be lower, but then you have the new stuff, like eye choices, and height modifiers, which are purely cosmetic, and they are even harder to get. why? because everyone wants one? I'm sorry but, not everyone is willing to pay a lot for things they want when they are out bid by everyone else on the auction house every time. Now if you went and changed the drop rates, you will no doubt get more money if you drop it down at first, but as the hype goes down due to it becoming more accessible, people will likely just start saving up and buying them off the AH, as is the trend.

*However, you could actually make certain aesthetic usable items, permanent, similar to using recipes, and just have a spot next to your helm on your personal character screen for viewing yourself where you can cycle through your eyes you have obtained. This would actually increase their net worth in game, and eventually, players would aquire them all, and no longer need them, allowing other players to begin collecting their full selection of eye choices.*

(currently, only being able to use 1 eye mod and 1 height mod, is not going to fully utilize the amount of effort your team of 3d artists, programmers, and other staff went through to implement them into the game)

this option may not work as well for height, seeing as how there are only 5 options, but they are still rare and hard to obtain, so it'd take a while for all the players to aquire them. that said you could make it work if you added more then simply height mods. consider making mods in the future like "Slim" and "Stocky", or even overall color mods for other parts of the knight not normally changeable, for example, the black area around the eyes having different shades, or even inverting colors, so the black area is the personal color, and the eye color becomes pure white with stylized black outlining, etc.

*if you did that kinda stuff, you'll have every player on spiral knights working towards buying their aesthetics for the next year, and retain people long enough for the next content patch to keep em playing.*

I play alot of games, almost purely to play around with the aesthetic options it provides. if it allows me to personalize my "avatar" in anyway, I'm already committed to playing it until I achieve the look I want (that said, I try to stay away from most MMO's). as someone who is a big fan of SK, and wants to see this game reach more of it's potential, I request you seriously consider some of these options I've listed in future patches, as it will not only keep me playing longer, but will likely gain you profits as well.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:34

Klipik

This is how economy works

Things everyone wants are rare so they cost more. This is deliberate, to make OOO more money. If they were more common, at first everyone would get them and be happy, except the people who sell them because they are forced to sell them at lower prices. Then eventually everyone has them, and once everyone has them you get a surplus of auras and halos floating around the AH. When new players reach the level where they can afford these, they'll buy them and be done. No one will pay exorbitant prices for accessories anymore. Less people will make CE purchases to convert into crowns to buy expensive items. OOO makes less money.

OOO does not want this to happen, so they will never do this.

Probably.

<(^_^)>

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:34

Little-Juances

Psychological.
People want them because they are rare. If everyone had them, they'd throw it away or ignore them.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 12:22

Oatmonster

Lick

Juances is correct. Take the classic wings for example. When they became readily availible, their prices dropped like non-levitating rocks.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 13:23

Theozai

Try reading next time.

Lol, well if anyone here had actually read any of my suggestions, you'd have realized I wasn't talking about accessories.

You might have also realized that I didn't want them to lower accessory drop rates, or Mirror Lock boxes rarity of the items, within, just lower the drop rate for mirrored lock boxes, or make mirrored lock boxes usable items unlockable features, rather then just simply cosmetic features, since right now if you use a modifier it's static and effects your character model rather then the armor your currently wearing.

*Let me clarify how this is more profitable for OOO, for those of you who have a hard time reading into any of what I stated earlier. right now, you can only use 1 eye mod, and 1 height mod. thats it.

*If you allow players to aquire and use "ALL" of the eye modifiers (just the eyes), then everyone will want to collect multiple, not just 1. this would grossly increase the amount of players trying to aquire eyes, and mirrored lock boxes. Their other option, is to lower the drop rate making them more accessible, so that they are on the AH all the time, selling by supply and demand, rather then being the rare commodity they are now.

It's hard for players to want eyes when they are so rare you can't even look at them all in the AH. Especially since the cosmetic effect is so minor.

Height upgrades should also be less of a rare commodity, and should rather just be a player preference thing, as it is suggested when you start a new Knight now.

if Tall and Short Modifiers are 50k at a vendor, then why should extra tall and extra short be so rare that they are worth more 200k max? right now they go for anywhere between 800k-1.5k which is just ludicrously outpriced for anyone just looking to be different. finally, they could simply just offer Mirrored Lock Boxes at vendors, and control the economy however they so please, just have them be more accessible to players.

*anyway, the whole point of this was to suggest new options to OOO's on how they might be able to both increase their profit and increase players access to certain types of cosmetics, as well as going over some of their cosmetic options for updates in the future. The point of this was not to declare that they make every cosmetic item in the game free for everyone, though if they had a paid subscription for that....I wouldn't be complaining.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 13:54

Canine-Vladmir

wow....im surprised

got told by a wall of text comment. ^
nice.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 17:05

Oatmonster

Lick

@Theozai, Neither was I. I was using the wings to show that whenever something becomes more easily obtainable, it loses value. In the long run, making height and eye modifiers permanent unlocks would lower the value, due to people no longer paying more to change their eyes/height. Sure, most people might just want to buy one and done, but those people typically aren't the people who buy modifiers. Again, it's usually the rarity that makes people want different eyes. That's why they're willing to shell out big bucks for items with such minor effects. Same with the height modifiers. If you could have chosen any height during character creation, the value of extra height modifiers would be significantly lower. Many people aren't paying for the effect, they are paying for the rarity.

Also, you might want to spend more time reading your own posts too. In your reply, you stated "I didn't want them to lower accessory drop rates, or Mirror Lock boxes rarity of the items, within, just lower the drop rate for mirrored lock boxes."

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 18:32

Theozai

thnx for replying, yeah I

thnx for replying, yeah I didn't want them to change the rate of the usable items within the mirror lock box, just make mirror lock boxes more accessible (same exact thing I said, and yes I did read my post).
extra tall and short modifiers are still two of the most rare things in there, if they made mirrored lock boxes drop more often, then we'd maybe see 2 of each on the AH at a time, rather than 1 of each every other week....

also, I know where your coming from, I just don't know if I believe that the same players are buying a new pair of eyes every month, as your comment would suggest they are. I am more inclined to believe that a handful of players do buy lots of accessories all the time, due to the fact that accessories are armor bound, thus giving you the opportunity to use them again and again with out losing the previous one, but people are less inclined to sacrifice an expensive set of eyes for a new expensive set of eyes just cause their bored of the old ones, nor are players going to play around with the expensive height modifiers more then a couple times, seeing as how they can just preview them ahead of time and decide how they want to see themselves.

I'm just saying, my suggestion gives players an incentive to "keep buying" or "collect" them, while the current system just lets them do as they please and learn from trail and error that they don't want to change their eyes any more....

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 19:54

Oatmonster

Lick

Since you read your post, and still seem to miss what I'm saying, let me try and be more clear. First, in post #4, you said one of the options was to lower the drop rate of mirrored lockboxes. This means make them more rare. This is the exact opposite of what you're saying in post #7.

Secondly, once you make the mirrored lockboxes more common, they lose their value. Something similar to this can be seen in the introduction of the prize wheel to the end of missions. Beforehand, iron lockboxes could only be obtained in the arcade, and since nobody ran the arcade anymore, their numbers decreased. Now that there were less lockboxes, people could sell them for more and people would buy them for more. Prices rose to 15,000 plus. When the prize wheel was added to missions, and the lockbox numbers increased, their price plummeted. Now you can barely get 3,000 for one.

Now how would that equate to less profit for OOO? Less people grinding for CR means less energy being spent. Less levels finished per lockbox means less energy spent. Lower price means less energy bought to be turned into CR.

The thing is, once they get into the keep buying or collecting mentality, the price of those items drops. Considerably. Granted the prices will eventually hit a equilibrium, this price could extremely low. As seen by the prices of barrel bellies and maid headbands.

Another thing, in your OP, you contradict yourself in the core of your reasoning. You state that accessories make you "look really cool/powerful" but then you describe the height and eye modifiers, as opposed to accessories, as purely cosmetic. Earlier, you said that accessories, making you look better should understandably have low drop rates. You don't seem to get that something that only makes you look better is purely cosmetic. Doesn't that mean that the height and eye modifiers should also have a low drop rate?

The basis for your argument is that not everyone can afford a height/eye modifier and so the rarity should be lowered, thus lowering the price. This premise is flawed, at the most basic level.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 21:35

Theozai

sorry if it sounded like I was arguing

I went back and read, and yeah, I by mistake said "lower" instead of "raise" in post 4, my bad lol. quite the opposite of what I was saying indeed, I'll leave it there so others can see what happened there.

anyway the drop rates for mirrored lock boxes would still be really low if they were the same as iron lock boxes, and if what your saying is true, they could remove them from mission prize wheels if it was really an issue, but I really don't think it'd be a problem if they did like I was suggesting, and made them like unique unlockables for your knight.

but I can't really say I believe less people are grinding for accessories when they are more affordable. in any economy, when something becomes more "affordable/accessible", everyone spends more on it for the first while, the whole reason why micro transaction games make more money then paid subscription based games (promotional content as well). So when you tell me less people are going to buy CE for cheaper lock boxes and silver keys, I say I don't believe you, due to the fact that they will feel like they can afford to do that with a lower price. now after a while, when everyone has accessories they want, sure they wouldn't make as much off of people, but thats why they keep making new content.

ultimately, I wasn't trying to suggest that they make everything cheaper, heck, I wouldn't mind seeing accessories have higher value if they were actually really cool, but most of them are not, and when you have so many accessories that come from a single prize box, of course the value of barrel bellies, which are not popular, are gonna take a fall. People will eventually buy a barrel belly now then, because they really want one, despite what the price is, but seeing an unpopular item have a low price, despite it's low drop rate, isn't unexpected. It's supply and "demand".

not nearly as many people want a barrel belly when there are things like the parrying blade, which both looks cooler, and is more rare, making it something not everyone else has or can get easily. but even if it was easy to get, would you still see a lot of barrel bellies? no.

now that said, I love the barrel belly, cause it actually looks good on certain suits, and most people don't like it so it's less common to see one. there is nothing wrong with that, just as there is nothing wrong with everyone wearing the same thing cause it's cool looking. when it's cheap, it's not always cause there are plenty to go around, but when I want something, and no one has one cause it's drop rate is so low, thats just inconvenient. No one wants to sit around waiting, checking a AH every couple of days for several weeks, just waiting to see if someone puts a valued accessory on the AH, just so they can bid on it for the next few days and likely get outbid, and sit around for another 4 weeks waiting in line for the next one.

while you may suggest that this "waiting" is gonna increase the amount of profit OOO will make, I would disagree. they may make more in the long run (due to players biding on said items their waiting for buying more CE), maybe the won't, it won't matter much if they aren't doing much else to retain their player base with new stuff. many people leave SK for very long periods of time, usually due to obtaining the set of gear they want before getting busy or distracted with other things, but if you give people the ability to reach those goals before waiting for too long, they are likely to invest more into the game, thus setting new goals, and willing to fork out more to get there (as opposed to impossible goals like 2 mil for players who aren't all that committed to the game yet, and will likely turn to other free to play MMO's before to long).

Anyway, I only suggested it cause the usable items in Mirrored Lock Boxes can't be used on a single knight more then one at a time, and are then locked until you get a new one. As it stands, people aren't likely buying a whole lot of eyes, cause there aren't a whole lot for sale, and when they are, they are really pricey, despite not being all that impressive to look at. everyone for the most part, if they even want a new set of eyes, probably consider that they can only use one at a time, and pick the one they ultimately want to use, thus, when a player is content with their eyes and height, Mirrored lock boxes are only useful for selling to other players. people have a lot of other things they'd rather spend CE and Crowns on first, and so, I don't see the profit in having such a rare commodity that isn't even all that noticable.

and yeah, while all accessories and usable eye mods height mods are both cosmetic, accessories make you look stronger, different eyes only personalize you a bit, it's not like you look like you can take more of a beating with swirly eyes then you would with delicate.

height mods only make you look stronger when your going for tall mods, cause they make you look older and more intimidating, so it makes sense for tall mods to be really rare, but not so rare as they are now, since I haven't seen one in the AH in over a week, and can't even get my hands on one when there being sold due to the crazy high bids. my complaint against the short mods is just that, there are not as many players trying to look "cuter", and if they were, they wouldn't resort to "extra short" unless they wanted to look like a child knight, so the only reason people even buy them or use them right now, is simply cause they are rare, not cause they actually look cool lol.

TLDR: I believe people will be more willing to spend money on CE for things they want when they are accessible. eventually yes, they will have the things they want, which will cause them to stop spending as much, but that was eventually gonna happen anyway, and now more then a handful of players are within grasp of things they want to have. If OOO's needs, they can just add more cosmetic stuff, and as long as they keep making it look more interesting, popularity will make the items worth more. lets face it, unpopular items deserve to be cheap.

it'd hurt you less as a player if that barrel belly you just got out of a iron lock box worth 10k with a key worth 700 CE, was a bit easier to get. maybe then it'd make sense to only sell it for 3000, as opposed to right now where you loose 18k for opening the box.

that said, in the rare offset chance you get a flame aura, you just possibly earned 2 mil+, pretty much won the lottery of SK, of course now you have to decide if your gonna wear it or not....

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 08:59

#10

Derpules

You are way too wordy.

Somehow I managed to read through it, but whew! Anyway, I agree with your second and third suggestions.

Your first doesn't make sense, though. Make keys cheaper and accs become more common, which reduces their value, which reduces the incentive to buy keys in order to open lockboxes. You'd just have more accs on the market selling for lower prices. It's impossible to say how this would affect the amount of CE spent on keys; you'd have to actually gather and study data on that. "Oh, it's cheaper, so people will spend more overall OF COURSE" isn't convincing to anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of economics.

[Edit: LOL, some of my text got deleted on accident. Edited it back in.]

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 04:10

#11

Theozai

okay okay

true I didn't support my logic behind that, and it's only an assumption based on the immediate results of increasing ease of access to consumers for things they want/need.

that said, I suppose here is an example of what I was trying to say.

right now, OOO's makes the main bulk of their money from players CE purchases, if I'm not mistaken. perhaps it's possible that most revenue comes from promotional sales, but either way, CE is usually involved somehow. Now if were talking about players "grinding/buying CE" in order to get cosmetics in the AH or just to get lock boxes and silver keys, I don't know the percentages, but I'd say it's at least half of the money that floats around the AH.

If bids for cosmetic items are the biggest source of gain for OOO's from the community, then how is it profitable to them when certain popular cosmetic choices, are not available for extended periods of time, due to their low drop rates and limited accessibility? Does it make up for a long break in the item's appearance when people bid millions of crowns on each super rare accessory, or would it be more profitable to have them be more affordable, and more available, people buying CE for a more available price within their reach? well, that would take some testing I'm sure, which I'm sure they may have some numbers for at OOO's HQ, but seeing as how we don't know for sure I made the assumption that it people who normally would feel it a waste of their time to bid on expensive items, may be more inclined if it was only going to take a small purchase of CE to get there (and it has been proven in many studies, that once a player has paid to a Free to Play game, they become more committed to it).

What I do know however, is that I would certainly be more inclined to spend on cosmetics, if I felt like their price ranges were within reason, but I'm only willing to buy a super expensive item when I feel like it's something I absolutely "need" to enjoy my game, and even then, I'm not willing to fork out hundreds of dollars to do it. instead, I'm likely just going to decide that I don't want one anymore, and use better reasoning to rationalize why I don't want it anymore, thus no money for OOO's due to lost interest. The values on many of the current accessories, when you translate their net worth into how much that would cost in real money, is almost hilariously insane.

stuff like height modifiers are worth close to 250 USD. on average....thats not paying for it with saved up money, thats a huge purchase. usually for someone to get their, they'd either have been buying CE over time, saviing up crowns as they go, but your never gonna see individuals spend that much money up front, just for a cosmetic add on that only applies to one set of armor, 1 time.

instead, imagine if the most they went up to, due to their supply, was maybe worth a grand total of 30 USD. If that happens, would you not likely have those same people who would have been buying 1 accessory with tons of crowns, now buying tons of accessories and controlling the market? I think you would. usually, if something is semi affordable but in limited supply, and it's demand is high, people with lots of money buy all of them so they can turn around and sell it at a higher price, thus making a profit.

if you look at stuff like materials on the AH, everyone wants materials, and they are dirt cheap, cause you get them naturally, with the exception of SL mats, which is an investment in and of itself, but imagine if you had to spend 2000k, to buy a box of mats, that you need 100 CE to open, and that only gave you a handful, maybe like 5, of assorted randomly spawned materials. the only other way of getting them would be trade/AH. how much would they sell for. a lot due to necessity. how many people would be trying to buy them? everyone. it'd be a huge money making scheme, but now ask, would we want to play the game anymore? probably not as much.

you can't assume OOO's only driving motive behind what they do is money, just look at the new character creation, they gave you free accessories there, FREE, they didn't have to do that, but they recognized that players are more inclined to play if they get to personalize their avatar a bit. this retains the player base better, and gives people something to work towards in the future when they get new armor, but if the accessories to personalize them are only accessible to players who fork out real money to afford their steep prices, then that incentive for them to stick around no longer applies.

ultimately, that part of my suggestion, about the economy, depends on factors and numbers that I don't fully know, so I was wrong to make assumptions, but hopefully now, you get my reasoning behind it.

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 23:04

#12

Derpules

Responses

We have to be clear about where OOO's money comes from. They earn from CE purchases--only CE purchases. They don't care how much or how little cr you spend, unless you got that cr by purchasing CE to sell on the market.

What this means is that as far as non-promo accs are concerned, their winning strategy will be whatever gets people opening the largest number of lockboxes. Would increasing the drop rates of currently rare stuff and/or making lockboxes cheaper to open lead to more people opening lockboxes? I don't know. Do you? [Edit to clarify: I actually meant "spending the largest amount of CE to open lockboxes", not "opening the largest number of lockboxes". Oops.]

"Does it make up for a long break in the item's appearance when people bid millions of crowns on each super rare accessory, or would it be more profitable to have them be more affordable, and more available, people buying CE for a more available price within their reach?"

Ah, so here you're discussing sales from players buying CE to sell in order to bid on accs, right? Okay. Here's the thing: as any marketer will tell you, there's money to be made at any price point. There's good money in cheap crap, but there's also good money in top-end luxury items, and at many points in between. So the winning strategy is to have a range of items with different rarities--which is exactly what we have now. A poorer or stingier player might spend a few bucks (operating on the "buy CE to sell it" assumption) to get a twinkle aura. A player who's willing to really spend (in real money) might fork out a lot more to get a twilight aura.

On a smaller scale, a richer/spendier player might get a parry blade, whereas a poorer/thriftier player gets a bomb bando.

In practice, it does not seem that players less willing to spend money refrain from buying accs at all. They simply buy cheaper accs.

"stuff like height modifiers are worth close to 250 USD."

What?? No. V tall and v short are at most 20k CE, and usually a lot less than that. That's $50, not $250.

"you can't assume OOO's only driving motive behind what they do is money, just look at the new character creation, they gave you free accessories there, FREE, they didn't have to do that, but they recognized that players are more inclined to play if they get to personalize their avatar a bit. this retains the player base better, and gives people something to work towards in the future when they get new armor, but if the accessories to personalize them are only accessible to players who fork out real money to afford their steep prices, then that incentive for them to stick around no longer applies."

Uh. Here are some acc prices for you to chew on. (Typical prices; they can go higher or lower, of course.)

Mecha wings: 20-50kcr
Barrel bellies: 2-7kcr
Headbands: 3-9kcr
Maid headbands: 1-3kcr
Glasses: 60-90kcr
Bomb bandos: 90-130kcr
Side blades: 70-110kcr
Mech'tennas: 6-15kcr
Com units: 9-20kcr
Helm-mounted displays: 6-15kcr
Canteens: 10-20kcr
Vitakits: 10-25kcr

Okay, tired of listing them now, but there are many more. The point is that there are lots of affordable accessories. Even a poor F2Per can work towards a bomb bando, or buy a mech'tennas without too much thought. You want parry blades, wings, halos, auras? Welp, break out that CC (or get rich through other, non-paying means) or save for a long time. Some stuff has got to stay rare--but there's plenty of stuff that isn't.

P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention eyes. Do you realise that the more common eyes are dirt cheap? 20-60kcr for most. The expensive ones are Angry, Delicate, and Shifty. If you're set on those, well, sad, because they happen to be the most popular. (Are they actually rarer? I don't know.) But 1) you still have every other pair of eyes to choose from, and 2) even the rare/popular eyes usually go for 200kcr tops. Not millions. And you'll only ever need to buy eyes once, unless you change your mind.

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 16:37

#13

Theozai

well, that was some great information, I am glad you took the time to read and reply, I totally see where your coming from now. Not to say I didn't already believe some of what your saying, but I suppose either way, you have a good point.

the various accessories that are "cheap" are pretty affordable in comparison. and not everyone is gonna quit the game when the realize they'll probably never get a prismatic halo.

I do wish they would have a sort of "accessory viewer" where you could look at all the accessories, weapons, costumes, and things, up to date, and preview them. so you can decide if you want them or not without having to wait and see them in the AH.

if they did that, I wouldn't care as much that the items aren't currently on the AH, cause I could at least preview them and decide if I want them.

anyway, if no one else is gonna post here, I think our views pretty much covered all bases of the subject here lol. good talking to ya.

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 23:07

#14

Derpules

Likewise!

It's nice to have a reasoned, non-hostile discussion.

I'd support the inclusion of an accessory viewer, for the reasons you mention. Currently you pretty much have to use SpiralSpy, a 3rd party program, to test out outfits conveniently--that's kind of silly. And an in-game acc previewer might also increase accessory purchases, since you can't really want something without seeing it!

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Here are some ideas concerning cosmetic changes that may improve the game, and possibly make you more profit. (subject changed)