What's the best way of use an Autogun?
The only use I have found is using it against wings. With two shootings I can kill one of them.
Autogun
Fri, 11/09/2012 - 17:06
Fri, 11/09/2012 - 17:27
#2
Hum...
And if I use the shield after the first shot, to cancel the second shot and block the attack? This would work well?
I tried it once myself. It seemed a good use, as the guide swordmaster.
strike, block, strike, block ...
Fri, 11/09/2012 - 17:51
#3
Shield-cancelling works for
Shield-cancelling works for swords because it cuts down your swing time and allows you to spend the majority of your time moving/shielding and otherwise safe. With autoguns, the firing animation can't be cancelled until near the end and takes a long time to complete, meaning taht shield-cancelling doesn't have as drastic an effect as it does with swords. All it really does is speed up the ending animation slightly, as opposed to allowing faster overall attacking efficiency.
Now, I'm not saying that autogun regular attacks can't be used, but in the time it'd take you to attack, you'd really be better off just unleashing a charge. Note that regular attacks are better done with the Plague/Pepperbox as they spread statuses quickly that way, while the Blitz merely does some damage. Even so, the charges still just do this better (albeit typically kill half of what you status'd...)
Autoguns generally aren't considered good starting guns as they require very different playstyles and, as you said, you may get advice mixed up between weapons because Alchemers are a viable option to shield-cancel with despite also being guns. You have the right idea and are thinking along the right tracks, it just doesn't apply as well to this particular weapon is all.
Fri, 11/09/2012 - 18:01
#4
Thanks.
You helped me a lot.
Thanks.
You helped me a lot.
Fri, 11/09/2012 - 18:12
#5
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The power of your autogun's charge attack will become more apparent as you upgrade it. Each bullet in the Autogun's charge attack only deals slightly more damage than a normal shot, so you get about twice the normal damage from it. Needle Shot's charged bullets are 50% more powerful, resulting in 3x normal damage. Blitz Needle's charged shots hit for three times the damage of its normal bullets, meaning its charge attack deals seven times more damage than the basic attack. Volcanic Pepperbox and Plague Needle are 5x.
The normal shot is for finishing off weakened targets, clearing blocks, and busting up minerals. For everything else, learn how to bait enemies into missing attacks, then unload a charge in their side as they recover.
Sun, 11/11/2012 - 01:09
#6
Teamplay tactic for the (auto)gunner
Ok, I'll have to admit I'm a touch tired of this Blitz charge FTW tactic that EVERYONE has decided to drill into our heads.
So, I did the unthinkably stupid. I crafted not just 1 but 2 autoguns. Guess what they turned into? Plague Needle and (currently) Fiery Pepperbox. What did I get to learn? That, of course, everyone relies so solely on damage that when one person chooses tactics they decide said person needs kicking, a lot. Some people are willing to go with it and change up their gameplay too... but bad apples spoil the bunch.
Ideas for teamplay as illustrated by a non-optimal player:
1. Volcanic Juggling (requirement of more than 1 to do)
Admittedly this is yet another charge tactic based idea, but it involves using a weapon so rarely seen that it's sad. Volc pepperbox.
While no, I do not have the volc, I have fiery. Which means I do know some about it's inner workings. Including the fact that it's KB is not acknowledged for it's beauty. You know how some people on here say that juggling with triglav/suda is something that takes skill? Say hello to something that will get you a little flare with any party. Charge up the volc, avoiding enemies as usual while you do so, your teammate needs to do the same and develop around 7-8 paces distance from you. Get up on the desired target and when your teammate's at the proper range they can either point their charge at or away from you, if you want some extra difficulty have them point it at you. Release your charge and when the target has come in range of your partner they loose theirs, if they've volleyed the target back at you then you better switch to a heavy sword or have something that you're certain will make a kill and upon the end of their charge you (might) make the final stroke. To my knowledge, heavy targets such as the lumber and trojan will not be affected by the pepperbox line's KB, which means most likely the target you and your friend just volleyed is dead... but on the off chance it's a Gremlin Shroudwalker, you will be needing that killstroke.
2. Fiery Isolation (charge-based pepperbox)
Whenever in a room with a healer, you have one major annoyance, the healer. Big issue for most people is, said healer has some heavy bodyguards that don't want to see it go. Now, with a pepperbox, you can do one better on them silkwings/totems... you can simply isolate the healer (or push the skellies away from the necro rad). Why go to the trouble of bringing a pepperbox to do this when you have a polaris/pulsar/combuster/whatever? Because this thing brings you a very damaging spread at decent speed. Which I'll be getting into shortly.
3. Searing battlefield
The most supportive status for fluid teamplay (read non-freeze) is FIRE. Don't let the slight chance fool you... 6 slight chances per attack more often than not means at least 1 enemy lit. Alternating between the charge and the regular attack can cause the whole field to be burning alive. This means mechaknight clouds burning away while gremlin menders (see fiery isolation if they're still alive) attempt to catch up. The sheer spread of bullets means you're attacking a good portion of that crowd very often. Again, why use a pepperbox? Because you can bring it anywhere and still get effective damage/utility. (I can drop a room and stay alive in a full party on the third wave of the final arena in close to any arena even if my team falls the first wave with a pepperbox.)
4. Compound 42, the volcanic plague
One major mistake by OOO... they showed us just how effective poison and fire can be when you're maintaining the onslaught of your targets.
How many times have you been killed by the fiend family? Admit it, between the greavers and the devilites ganging up on your party you've lost more than one time to that armada. What about those shock fiend levels eh? Wait, you won't step foot in there? Well why not? Cause they attack you too much? heh... I don't get that problem much anymore... at least not when I have a friend wielding a plague beside me and I have my fiery perpperbox in hand.
The general basis, is that the pepperbox wielder keeps the fiends at bay (read: away from you and your partner) and the plague user poisons/needles the crap outta them. How do you go about this? You make devilites dodge, which they do at EVERY BULLET THAT COMES THEIR WAY (doesn't even have to be a bullet capable of making contact). You push greavers back/hit them, pepperbox does that prettily. And you laugh like a maniac when a silkwing comes out because the whole field is covered in a poisoned and burning status that drops them left and right. Why do this? Because you can. Beauty of poison, is that it weakens attacks, so the few times you ever do get hit by an attack... you can brush it off, and curbstomp them on your way out.
5. Venom Veils got nothing on Toxic Rain
How can you assure your safety on a run through the CW, or a mission is by neutralizing every target. Right? Well, say your party isn't all that good at that aiming thing... kinda hard to kill everything when you miss right? Now, say that they decided to attempt killing that trojan with their blitz needle but they put themselves too far back to get all the bullets in because they don't know the EXACT point the trojan spawns... what normally happens? AMG I'M DEAD! Why? Cause the noob beside you doesn't know what "dodging" means.
Say you're just in a place where your team's about as trustworthy with killing everything as they are to type "can you tab me nao?" annoying? Yes, and everyone knows where we'd love to send these guys. But, one way to ensure your team's survival without affecting their combative ability is by littering the field in toxins. What method is most fun for this? Hearing those bullets chewing through the enemy and slap on a good dose of STRONG poison for good measure. Why this over venom veiler? Because venom veiler is a bomb... and do you really wanna sit through having to hold your arms up for a god-awful amount of time when you can just let loose a few bullets and have the majority of the field sitting in the same boat as they would had you used a veiler? Also, STRONG poison reduces attack strength both longer and a bit stronger than it's minor counterpart. So, let's go over this in full, slightly better damage on average against the enemy, damage AND status, let's also take some time to recognize that their hits get wimpy too... win-win-win atm. (this is what OOO sees)
6. That ^#$@*)% silkwing
Self-explanatory poison strategy regarding making the worst enemy: read any anger-inducing healer into your friend by simply applying the world's most vengeful status on everything. This generally is more evasively effective (read: you'll stay alive longer and move better) by using the 1st attack and waiting awhile.
The average attack is more valued when you're using a status oriented autogun. Why? Because you leave a lasting effect on the battlefield that someone can stack on. If I bring a status-oriented autogun to the fight then the rest of my team can focus on another status... stacking statuses on your enemy can make the game easier than focusing on killing them. Because when your enemy is hurt simply for existing, or for doing something, then your enemy can't fight back as easily. I personally ask many people to use status in FSC, all they can effectively bring is shock, freeze, stun and poison. Fire is for those people who just hate trojans, jellies and deadnaughts a little much (can't personally blame them for doing so). My reasoning behind such request isn't to hinder my team, it's to make fights easy. A stunned, shocked, poisoned enemy is an enemy who can effectively sit where they are and wait for the kill to be made (even vana is close to paralyzed). An enemy who is stunned, shocked and on fire can only do the same. Freezing the enemy leaves it able to attack, and is far less powerful.
"The true master paralyzes his opponent, leaving them vulnerable to attack"
Sun, 11/11/2012 - 04:34
#7
Optimization
The reason everyone takes Blitz over the 2 other options is simple : people wants "the best" and don't like to think too hard about the other options.
For those being kicked for not choosing "the best" that's another problem : people being stupid or elitist. You probalby don't want to play with stupid people anyway. To address a few of your points :
- why just pushback or poison things if you can simply kill the heck out of everything by doing exactly the same things ? Other than for fun, I don't see any good reason.
- "The most supportive status for fluid teamplay (read non-freeze) is FIRE" No it's not. Fire is not even supportive, it just does damage. The most supportive status is Shock, or arguably Stun.
- actually poison + fire is not that effective. Shock + Fire, that's what's effective. Or Shock + Stun for massive disable. There is a reason few people use poison at all.
- fiend family have a well-known solution, spam the first swing of a piercing sword. Compared to that, an autogun don't nearly have the same wide angle, and have a much longer time during which you can't shield, as well as time between strikes. If you REALLY want to be supportive, make both shadow shield, take the right one according the status, and shield in front of your Blitz-wielding friends. THAT works wonder.
- also, your comparison between VV and Plague is just not fair. You compare a 100% uptime on a HUGE area to a "hopefully I'll have a few mobs poison during half the time" or so.
Also, for your last quote, I don't know where you got hit from, but I'll answer with a Sun Tzu quote : "Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays." Which about sums up the debate of Blitz vs Plague/Pepperbox in my eyes.
Sun, 11/11/2012 - 07:39
#8
The most supportive status is
The most supportive status is Shock, or arguably Stun.
No, all shock does is interrupt here and there. A similar effect can be achieved with freeze or even by attacking the enemy with weapons that interrupt. The support status of the game is inarguably poison. With a healer around they take damage instead of heal, so you're turning their healers against them; it reduces their damage against your teammates making the environment safer, and increases damage against them so you kill faster. That's something that simply cannot be replicated by any other means; poison is the go-to support status for a group. Shock is just shock.
I have to agree though, that if you want poison everywhere on the field, then VV is the way to go. Plague just cannot possibly keep up with that, and since Blitz does nigh double the Plague damage, you're arguably just as well off with a VV spammer and a Blitz spammer.
However, Skold, I do appreciate that you try to come up with interesting and fun ways to play wiwth weapons. I'm an advocate for the other Autoguns myself, and have had my Pepperbox long before I ever had a Blitz; normal damage is what it's about for me. However, Fradow is right in the sense that a lot of people would rather just kill quickly than try to have a good time. Especially when you're pouring through a repeated level or are on a boring/annoying floor and just want to move on. It's better to organise fun trips with friends and guildies, such as shard+vortex only OCH runs that Zeddy and I have bene talking about; tryin' to do that with a randomer will get you /ignore'd fo sho'.
Also, that even with Plague and Pepperbox, the charges are pretty much still just the way to go. Regular attacks hit fairly weakly, don't have as wide a spread, don't shoot as many bullets and have no KB. With max CTR, you can charge up and unleash at a far faster rate than just shooting, and with the extra bullets/spread, then status spread will be faster, too.
One thing about the C42 idea, as I like doing that myself (but with hazes). You never mentioned one way or the other, but I'll just point out that poison doesn't increase the damage of fire ticks, but it does increase the damage of shock ticks. Ofc, fire still ridiculously outdamages the shock (unless you have 4 mobs clumbed together) but just to note that the fire won't get that percentage increase.
The autoguns are almost exclusively charge-based weapons. The charges deal ridiculous amounts of damage more than the regular shots as well as shooting twice as many and causing a KB. The charges are so good that you'd kill faster by spamming them than just shooting.
In fact, the Autoguns have amongst the highest damage outputs in the entire game, the Blitz especially (being pure damage, w/o a status effect) can deal over 4k damage if all bullets hit. That's the kind of damage that those in the know would call "stupidly redundant".