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Gear sets (Please help!)

19 Réponses [Dernière contribution]
dim, 11/11/2012 - 09:36
Portrait de Bossbane
Bossbane

Hey there! Styrka here.

I have been playing on and off for two years I think now, beginning last year until that weird snow storm. It set me off because I could get my halloween mask because we didn't have connection! GRR frustrating!

Anyways though, I am back now, but my old self and I seem to have a bit of a disconnect:

I have a winmillion and then several 3 star weapons (such as a Grintovec, Toxic Catalyzer (with two nice UI), Electron Charge, Pepperbox, Brandishes, etc.) But none of them really work together well! While I am capable of making new armor and weapons all together, I already have the recipies to upgrade all of these weapons and more. Are any of the mentioned weapons capable of working well together/worth keeping? As, if I remember correctly, getting 4 star equipment is a pain, 5 star doubly so.

For armor, I have a Fused Demo Helm, Angelic Helm, Silvermail, Boosted Plate Shield and a Swiftstrike buckler. However, I have the recipes to upgrade them all as well, but also have the recipie to make a Wyvern Scale Helm (Have the recipies for the lower level helms as well) Vita Suit Deluxe recipe and a Heavy Plate shield recipe.

I know this is a lot to read but I really appreciate it! I hope to see you around clockworks and that you can help me with this,

-Styrka

dim, 11/11/2012 - 09:49
#1
Portrait de Derpules
Derpules
What do you mean by "work together well"?

The weapons look okay to me--not ideal, but workable. Troika line charges combo nicely with Elec Charge's vacuum. And any decent gun + any Brandish works just fine. You switch weapons depending on which one suits the situation at hand; you don't need to use them "together".

Your armour and shield selection is pretty crappy, though. I'm sure Bopp will come along and tell you why soon enough.

dim, 11/11/2012 - 09:49
#2
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
I'm not entirely sure what

I'm not entirely sure what your question is, but I did notice the "none of them really work well together" and would have to disagree. Troikas, Brandishes and Autoguns all work fantastically on a vortexed mob, for one. Personally, I love my V.Pepperbox but it's not overly popular as the Blitz outdamages it by such a high margin, and that counts for Vana. Brandishes are also well worth upgrading and can be used wherever you like, outside of Wolver Dens really.

dim, 11/11/2012 - 10:02
#3
Portrait de Dukeplatypus
Dukeplatypus
Well, well, well, isn't that

Well, well, well, isn't that a hipster loadout? I think you can make something really interesting with that mix of gear ya got there. Brandishes are tried-and-true weapons and the rest aren't terrible, they're usable, but they just aren't great (Winmillion particularly so). They're also pretty charge heavy.
From my experience, we got a few options:
-Take some of the weapons, craft some new ones, and move into one of the more standard archetypes (would probably be bomber). You'd focus on a certain playstyle, but you could find a way to incorporate some of the other weapons.
or
-Keep your weapons and start working towards the Chaos set. It offers a universal ctr and dmg low to every weapon with each piece and it's one of the 5*s of the Magic line, and from what I can gather, pretty close to the way you play. It will make your current weapons go well together. The catch is that it doesn't get any offensive bonus until 5*, has mediocre defense, and has an innate weakness to fire, freeze, shock, poison, and curse. If you know how to avoid damage well, the defense doesn't matter, but it's something to consider.

dim, 11/11/2012 - 11:06
#4
Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
Individual Strengths

Derpules and Darkbrady already covered the weapons working well together, so I'm going to comment on each weapon :

- Winmillion is a hipster sword. That's a polite word to say it sucks. It doesn't have any 5* upgrade, its damage is bad, and it doesn't work against a few mobs due to excessive shielding/dodging due to winmillion normal attacks having projectiles. I guess you can play with it for the time being, but don't count on it on the long term. Except if you want to be a hipster

- Grinvotech, as any Troika line, is out-classed by sealed sword lines. It's slower and does less damage, just for a bit more knockback (which is not that useful, sealed swords already have enough). You'd want to keep it only if you seek to combo with a vortex bomb. Or want to be a hipster.

- Toxic catalyzer works. But there are better Shadow guns. A sentenza has an easy to use gun, or an alchemer for a good gunner. Catalyzer suffer from very slow bullets and a charge which is painful to set up.

- Electron charge is somewhat good, but rare, because it's hard to use without getting hit. On the other hand, it's one of the best weapon in the game to do combos. Sadly, it's not very effective before it reach 5*, because the radius, the succion and the duration are not enough.

- Pepperbox is not bad per say, but is outclassed by Blitz in most cases.

- Brandish are good. Whichever you do, you can't go wrong with any of them. And they also do a good combo with Vortex. Go for it!

As for armors, you should really choose which role you want and stick with the dedicated armor for the time being. Small comments on what you already have :
- Fused Demo Helm upgrade to Volcanic Demo Helm. It's a very good helm .... if you want to be a bomber.
- Angelic Raiment is not bad per say, but not a specific armor. For that reason I wouldn't advise continuing it. None of the 5* armor is really outstanding
- Silvermail, as any armor which doesn't have normal, should be avoided, at least for now. Piercing + Shadow has very little practical use. Don't upgrade that for now.
- Boosted Plate shield is ok if you want to only have one shield and not bother with taking one shield for each damage type. If you want to go that way, upgrade to Volcanic Plate Shield. It's the best one for that category
- Swiftstrike is the offensive shield. It's good, but you have to be good enough to not rely on its shielding capacity in T3. Keep it, as you are definitely going to use it later on.
- Wyvern Scale Helm, as any armor which doesn't have normal, should be avoided, at least for now. A lot of people fall in the trap of thinking it's somewhat good, but nope, the no-normal really is a breaker. Don't continue on that route for now.
- Vitasuit is BAD. Seriously, it doesn't have any special damage resistance, any status resistance, or any offensive stat. The only good way to use it is as has rich people's costum. Do not get that.

I don't really agree with Duke on the Chaos set : the status debuff seems to dangerous for a beginner in my eyes. I'd rather advise for a swordsman part + a bomber part despite less offensive stats. If you go that way, upgrading your Fused Demo Helm to a Volcanic Demo Helm and making a Vog Cub Coat is a very good beginning set. Else, we'll need to know more about what you want to advise you.

P.S. : I took shortcuts in parts description (because there were lots of them), point a few ones if you want more infos on them.

dim, 11/11/2012 - 15:38
#5
Portrait de Bossbane
Bossbane
So, from what I've gathered so far...

Hey again guys!

So thanks so much for your advice so far, but I have a question for you Fradow: Why are armors without normal defense a good idea? What if you have a helmet and armor that have all four defenses together, like silvermail + heavy demo helm?

My next question then is that would a 5 star bomb helmet, radiant silvermail, electron vortex, swiftstrike buckler and then a sword/virulent catalyzer work well all together? It seems to work in my head, but please let me know if I am forgetting something important.

Thanks again so much,
-Styrka

dim, 11/11/2012 - 15:42
#6
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
A set with zero normal

A set with zero normal defence is likely to get you killed fast anywhere you go; if you do use the specialist sets, then it's advisable to mix it with a normal part, as you said. A common 4-def layout is Divine Veil and Skolver, which gives you resistances against three dangerous statuses and sword damage. If you want Bombs though, then tossing a Mad Bomber/Volca Demo instead of the Divine Veil works. I'd personally advise against Silvermail as it's use is fairly restrictive and the resistances aren't top priority. The undead bonus works in FSC/GYs and some SLs, but I'm getting the feeling you're not spamming FSC+ yet, so generic bonuses might be better for you.

It's best for you to pick out the weapons you want, and build armour around that. You asked about a Bomber helm but just said Sword/Cata, so I'm not sure what you want that for, and if Mad Bomber or Volca Demo would be more pertinent.

dim, 11/11/2012 - 23:56
#7
Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
"Why are armors without

"Why are armors without normal defense a good idea?"
I said the contrary (perhaps you mistyped?) : you shouldn't take an armor without normal defense. The reason is that even in T3, most things do some normal damage. If you look at the damage for any given strata in T3, it will generally be something like about 40% normal, about 50% of a special damage and the 10% of another damage (I just made up those numbers, but that should give you an idea).

So the ideal is to protect against from normal + the special damage you are going to encounter. Since you can't do an armor for each damage yet (too expensive), let's look at the 3 special damage :
- elemental is very present, as there are constructs everywhere. Constructs and gremlins are dangerous, so you should at least take some elemental protection. Good thing : it's easy to get : the bomber armor is only elemental, and both swordsman and gunner sets have an elemental option.
- shadow is a bit more rare. It's for fiends and undeads. While undeads are generally easy especially zombies, fiends are the most difficult. You can avoid fiends for now, be very careful around them or get some shadow armor. Sadly, the bombers don't have any shadow armor, the swordsman one is out of reach for now. Only the gunners have Shadowsun.
- piercing is from beasts and jellies. Unless you run RJP a lot, those are the least difficult mobs. That's why a lot of persons don't wear any piercing resistance. There are some exception (Compound 42 danger mission), but for now you probably don't need any piercing resistance.

As for Silvermail + Heavy Demo Helm : for now, that would make a set that have a bit of every resistance, but in the long term, silvermail is going to be useless. Is that really what you want ? There are better sets, like the Divine Veil + Skolver Darkbrady talked about. Divine Veil is one of the rare armor without normal that is still kinda useful : very few armors have shock resistance, and there are several occasions on which shadow + elemental are mixed in a strata.

As for the weapons, as I said before, any brandish sword is going to work well. An electron vortex wouldn't be my first choice because it isn't very good before it reaches 5*, and it's kinda hard and dangerous to use. The catalyzer wouldn't be in my choices either. You are probably going to regret doing it.

Whatever you choose, remember that you either need at least one normal weapon OR two non-normal weapons (the latter being more desirable), to be able to have normal or strong damage against every family.

lun, 11/12/2012 - 09:30
#8
Portrait de Bossbane
Bossbane
I may be getting it now...

Alright, here's my next question then: Say I had two pieces of armor with very high normal defense, both of them near to the full bar (Like a dread skelly helmet and a grey feather cowl):

Do their combined defense extend beyond the bar or just max out together? My question applies to the other defenses as well.

Next, I have to ask about specific monster damage boosts from weapons/armors. Say I have a Hunting Blade, which as you know has a high damage bonus to beasts: is this comparable to that of a piercing weapon, or would a flourish line blade be superior to it in regards to extra damage?

And yes, Fradow, I meant to ask why is was a bad idea, ha ha ha! Sorry about that.

-Styrka

lun, 11/12/2012 - 10:14
#9
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
To get a more accurate gauge

To get a more accurate gauge of your defences, look at your overlay (in tab) at the bottom of your character window and it'll show you combined totals from all your armour and UVs.

Beast:high is the same as all damage:high, so there's often little reason to aim for that. A piercing blade generally suits you better, especially with damage bonuses. You can get more detailed answers, ofc, but that's a summary.

lun, 11/12/2012 - 10:56
#10
Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
answers

Do their combined defense extend beyond the bar or just max out together?

Yes. There is no limit to damage defenses. They just keep going up, as you add more. However, the size of the effect may diminish. This is a topic of ongoing discussion, because there is no obvious way to understand it except through laborious testing.

Say I have a Hunting Blade, which as you know has a high damage bonus to beasts: is this comparable to that of a piercing weapon

A piercing sword does higher damage to beasts than a Wild Hunting Blade does (607 vs 545 DPS); see data here. Also, the piercing sword's first swing is much wider. Also, beasts are probably the easiest monster family, so I advise you not to optimize your equipment around them. Fiends are probably the hardest monster family, and piercing swords work extremely well against them.

You may also be interested in this wiki page, which explains offensive and defensive bonuses: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Abilities.

mar, 11/13/2012 - 12:52
#11
Portrait de Bossbane
Bossbane
So then...

Well, I wasn't expecting this much attention! Even still, thanks so much.

Just real quick then, I am wondering if this set gets your blessings:

Full bomb (I'll worry about the specific 5 star recipies later) and then the dark briar patch bomb and the electron charge. I figure that the two get good coverage together with only jellies giving me trouble and that, because the briar patch has no knock back, I can trap enemies in the electron charge and set off two or three briar's before the second stage of the electron set's off!

Please let me know what you think and thanks for the surprising level of feedback,

-Styrka

mar, 11/13/2012 - 13:08
#12
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Don't worry, people that

Don't worry, people that frequent NR/Arsenal tend to be folk who want to help others advance and improve; should never feel out of help, here~

Full bomb loadouts tend to be worth getting weapon slots and bringing 4 weapons to maximise variability. You can easily enough make one loadout to cover all situations if you mix them up nicely enough. Vortex and DBB work, although DBB doesn't use vortexes as efficiently as certain other weapons do, since it has a large rad and only hits each enemy once anyways, but it's a start, although ambitious to think you can get three DBBs off before your vortex finishes. Nitro may be a more wide-spread option, if you can manage the KB well, but depends on your personal preferences.

I had forgotten aboutthese videos, but another post earlier reminded me. I made them last year aimed specifically at bombers-to-be and to promote usage of Vortexes and will hopefully help out a bit with any bomb troubles you may have. (note that any details with Shards/RSS are now out of date).

mar, 11/13/2012 - 13:43
#13
Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
If you plan to go for bombs

If you plan to go for bombs only, you may want to reconsider for now.

I hate to say it, but most bombs really reach their potential at 5*, meaning up until then, it's going to suck : the difference in radius before 5* really makes a big difference, and the vortex bombs really are different at 5* (despite the visible radius not improving). Also, before reaching the end-game, places where bombs are very effective, meaning crowds, are few.

Anyway, if you still want to go that path : Electron Vortex is not a damage bomb. Sure it does some damage, but not enough to be considered a full damage bomb. Here are the damage bombs :
- Nitronome : great for solo or with a party which appreciate it. It has the advantage of being normal, so you won't have any trouble with multiple damage.
- Dark Briar Barrage, as you listed, is the go-to piercing bomb. Works well in a party, as well as against normal targets.
- if you have the OCH, Dark Retribution is a good shadow bomb. Otherwise you'll find your shadow bomb options limited. The vortex one is not meant to damage, really.
- for elemental, you are out of luck too, because most are status weapon. On the other hand, the Ash of Agni + Voltaic Tempest is great to have shock as elemental + some fire (specific resistance) on floors that doesn't resist either (sadly, the go-to late game farming place, FSC, is resistant to fire).
- lastly, I'll reluctantly include the shards/splinters bombs. They have every special damage listed before, but are a little underwhelming, because of their mechanism. I can't really advise getting any of those, I'm pretty sure Nitronome will do better in almost every situation, and the other bomb I talked about WILL do better.

As said Darkbrady, DBB don't really profit from the vortex. I can't think of any bomb which really profit of the vortex, actually (apart from the old RSS, but ... let's forget about our beloved dead RSS).

In my eyes, a bomber is either get a Nitronome and resign yourself to play only solo/ with mates or be prepared to spend a lot of money getting all the other bombs (DBB, DR, AoA, VT are a minimum for me, with a vortex being the finishing touch, add Shivermist for FSC).

P.S. : people here generally like to help beginners who have thought a little about what they want to do and are able to describe their situation. A post like that is bound to have lots of good answers.

mar, 11/13/2012 - 13:42
#14
Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
Bombing Guide

I agree that bombing is fun but maybe not the easiest path for beginners. If you want to be a bomber, the others here are giving good advice, but you should actually start with the Bombing Guide on the wiki. It's really pretty good.

mar, 11/13/2012 - 14:38
#15
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
I'd have to concur with

I'd have to concur with Bopp/Fradow, that bombing as a beginner is hard. I did it (and did it when RSS was useful) and still found myself more or less incapable of soloing. Once you've maxed your gear off you can solo bosses and all the rest, but w/ <4* bombs, the CWs are pretty rough for anyone without a party to back them up. If you want to go the bombing route, it tends to be better to get one or two hazes and maybe one dps bomb; focus on them and max them off ASAP so you can be increasingly more productive, then once you have a few 5*s, the rest will come naturally.
If you do go that route, I'd suggest shiver or VT as they're useful support bombs. VV is the support bomb, but won't serve you well w/o any oither options, and certainly not so much before 5*.

Also, @Fradow:
With vortexes, I've been playing with alternating between a vortex and shard to try and beef up the damage rates with that; guarantee they get hit and negate that infuriating shard KB. IT works....well enough, but the hit limit gimps it completely from being competitive with your party members. I did feel more useful than just dropping shards alone, though, as every single shard bomb got put to full use; the damage is much more noticeable thatw ay, I find, than using them alone and having half the enemies KBd, half walk away and the other half only take a single hit.

Yes, three halves.

ven, 11/16/2012 - 12:41
#16
Portrait de Bossbane
Bossbane
So many bombs!

A few of you have mentioned RSS now; While I know that the update has significantly changed how shard bombs work, do you guys find them to be an effective weapon? And yes, this does mean I decided to try and be a bomber; However, I do have a few good swords at my disposal should the going get too tough for a green bomber such as myself! So no need to worry =) Anyways, I was bouncing a few bomb sets off of my friend whom also plays, and the shards sort of perplexed us. While I also know that they are under testing to see if they are viable, what are your experiences with them?

I find them to be effective at killing off turrets from a distance (If you can get the spacing right for two shards to hit them that is!) but outside of that they have been 'moody', let's say.

What do you guys think? Thanks,

-Styrka

ven, 11/16/2012 - 13:19
#17
Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
the conventional wisdom

The conventional wisdom is that the shard bombs need no more testing; they are just bad. If you want a piercing damage bomb, go with Dark Briar Barrage. If you want a shadow damage bomb, go with Dark Retribution (if you can get OCH). Otherwise, go with Nitronome or resign yourself to spreading status or vortices.

I have faith that the game designers know and love this game far better than the players. So I suspect that there is some cool tactical niche that the shards bombs must fill. But nobody's really been able to find it, despite trying pretty hard. It doesn't help that the old RSS was a lot of fun, offering a play style that is no longer available in bombs.

ven, 11/16/2012 - 13:25
#18
Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
Shards are bad!

Well, I was intrigued when I came back on the forum. Long story short, Shards bombs suck.

To compare, if both the shard AND the explosion hit, they will do about the same damage as DBB. Problem is, it almost never happens. You are lucky if either the shard OR the explosion hit the target, let alone both. It also has the problem of the huge delay between when you plant it and when the explosion. On the other hand, DBB will hit everything in the radius every single damn time.

So the piercing version is totally out. The shadow version can be an alternative to Dark Retribution if you don't have OCH and REALLY want a shadow bomb (you don't really need one). Same goes for the elemental version, as there is no real damage bomb apart from that one (but again, VT/AoA are really good, DBB covers zombies perfectly too, and Nitronome can be used against everything).

If you have problems with turrets specifically, take a gun or sword you like to solve that problem (Polaris is very good at that for example).

ven, 11/16/2012 - 16:22
#19
Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
The shards are better at

The shards are better at spreading small degrees of status than they are at dpsing, but the problem is that hazes simply out-do them at this. There's too many restrictions on shards right now for them to be an effective weapon, especially for beginner bombers. It's not worth spending your hard-earnt money on something you'll find great difficulty using. You may have fun using them, but will probably not use them often enough to merit the costs. I, and several others, have been experimenting with ways to increase their efficiency, but taht only serves to emphasise that they should really only be a bomb to be crafted by the experienced/bored bomber, at least until a practical use is discovered and widely available.

For the time being, I'd advise against getting the shards.

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