Spiral Knights - LD: I hear you say the Guardian is terrible...

LD: I hear you say the Guardian is terrible...

29 replies [Last post]

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 13:07

Raisinfist

/e hopes this is the right place to put this thread.

Being tired of a) being roflpwned as a Recon in T2 with only bombs b) never seeing another Guardian on the team c) just generally sucking, I tried out Guardian.
You may say "Why did you do that? Guardian sucks [insert bodily object here]!". You may say "LOL, you'll be MINCED by the 4 clones on the other team". You may even say that I'm slightly less well-off in common sense and sanity, in less PC terms.

Allow me to explain:
1. Guardian is NOT a Clone-type loadout, as in, you can't play it like you would a striker-clone. This means you can't waltz right in and kill everything with your toothpick - you need to be slightly more careful as it's a lot harder to escape.
2. Guardian's shield is, admittedly, pretty weak - but a load better than Recon's shield, which won't take any damage. Plus it will help teammates in need, and you'll get a few thanks for that. You can even stay safe (inside a forcefield) and allow someone else to go out, safely, and take care of all those enemies out there. Given that I was using a sword/bomb loadout, I decided to use it as I can't shake people off easily, especially with the whole footprints issue.
3. Guardian will work for people who put in time, I think - so far, I haven't put in much, but I'll try.

So, anyone out there who wants to get more people out of facerolling, post below. If you have any tips for ickle little newbie LDers, or people who only recently changed, or even if you just want to show your appreciation, post below.

I'll start off with these:
1. HEAL teammates. If there aren't too many teammates/enemies around, then take their damage (Why is too many teammates bad? I'll explain later)
2. Don't forget: Your shield will go down in seconds against a clone. You can and will be stunlocked by clones. Clones are pretty much your worst enemy, so try to keep a teammate around to keep them off your back.
3. If all your teammates (or even over 2) are in one place and an enemy comes along, DROP THE SHIELD or it will break in one hit, leaving you unable to help.
4. You are the ultimate counter to bombers, especially DR-line bombers, as you can just walk straight through their low-DPS attacks - your shield should hold up to one, maybe even two, bomber's attacks.
5. A surprisingly large number of people are unwilling to attack even a single Guardian on a point - assuming the aforesaid people aren't clones. Don't forget this, as it will help a fair bit.
6. Work with your team. Buddying up with someone else will prove surprisingly effective.

Don't forget: LD isn't about damage, it's about caps.
~Dried Grape

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 14:36

Fradow

I'll explain from my T3

I'll explain from my T3 perspective.

"hopes this is the right place to put this thread."
It is.

"Guardian is NOT a Clone-type loadout"
So what's your loadout ? Because mine, apart from VT and switching a heart trinket for an offensive trinket, is a total clone loadout (toothpick, GF, Polaris, Skolver).

"you'll get a few thanks for that"
That happens, but frankly, it's rare. Very rare.

"HEAL teammates"
You are about 4 times slower with your shield up than a Striker. Nope, they won't stay inside for that slow regen rate, compared to an almost instant refill at the base.

"Clones are pretty much your worst enemy"
Good ones are dangerous, but what's really hard is gunners. You can't get close to gunners, so unless they get careless they will no-match you. With clones, you have a chance. Especially against not so good ones (which is most of them, only a few are very good).

"DROP THE SHIELD or it will break in one hit"
That's still one hit less in the face of your team. What's the use of your shield if you don't use it ?

" especially DR-line bombers"
I can't remember seeing a single one in the last few months. Apart from a few exceptions, it's only haze bombs (because those ones are actually good).

"A surprisingly large number of people are unwilling to attack even a single Guardian on a point - assuming the aforesaid people aren't clones"
Actually, even clones may be afraid, for a reason. That's the main advantage of being a guardian : you can sit your [bucket] there mostly while bees go around killing each others (I like to refer Strikers as bees).

"Buddying up with someone else will prove surprisingly effective."
Except clones don't need you. They go faster, so sticking with you is mostly a hindrance to them. They don't need your squishy shield that drops in 2 hits. That's the sad state of LD, unfortunately.

"LD isn't about damage, it's about caps."
Everytime someone says that, I cringe. It's not about caps. It's about keeping bases. What's the best way to keep bases ? Sending all the enemy team back to the spawn. That's damage there. Sure, don't try to chase a fleeing striker or someone passing by when you cap. But DO fight at points.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 15:56

Flowchart

They're way better in T1 though. That extra 3 health + heart trinkets make one tough to take down. Good luck if there's two.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 17:37

Little-Juances

"Don't forget: LD isn't about damage, it's about caps."

You cant capture if my damage killed you :P
You need to balance both worlds.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 19:05

Zeddy

Lockdown isn't about damage, it's about freezelocking.

Dead enemies respawn.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 23:02

Sppw-Is-Back

I is-back am-back

/agree Zeddy

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 23:57

Qwez

nononononononono...

It's all about FoVing...
BURN baby BURNNNNN!1!!one!!!
(Massive satisfaction when 4 players occasionally die all at once)(Muahahahahaha)

Mon, 01/14/2013 - 03:31

Breaker-Xd

Striker and Guardian

Guardian is very good in T2, if played correctly.
When I played guardian (admittedly with the same equipment that I use for striker), I stood toe to toe with some of the fiercest Dusker clones in the game, and beat them down.

Guardian shield gives the advantage of being able to completely destroy a striker clone's element of surprise; the shield blocks the bulk of the hit and you can slip away and repel without taking major damage. The health boost also makes a careful knight last a lot longer.

As a striker, I wait until my foe is incapacitated (just combo'd or is distracted or shocked or has just run out of dash) before striking, and get out without a scratch. Guardian played this way would just as good, maybe even better due to the extra health.

Also, after slaying your foe, a guardian can conveniently HEAL while CAPTURING a point, a massive advantage for someone holding a point far from their base.

My full thoughts on Wolver Clones and some comments regarding guardian: Taming the Wolver Clones

Yeah, shameless self-advertising, but hey whatever.

Note that all my talk is T2-specific. From what I've seen in T3, guardian is only usable because of the shield and health, which block from recons. Still, they are used much less than recon or striker. Don't even ask about T1, I have no idea.

Mon, 01/14/2013 - 01:33

Dr-Storm

Guardian = big sword :D, I

Guardian = big sword :D, I usually get higher damage as a guardian in t2 XD , 12 defend ftw! Just camp at the point which is nearest to the enemy base :P
Usually play guardian in t2 with my alt if not laging :P ,
A whole team of guardian that stay together in t2 is almost cheat like, striker clone can hardly kill 1 unit ( assuming that they're not using hammur) :P

Mon, 01/14/2013 - 08:21

Spicegirls

Striker + hammer=>dead guardian
however
guardian + hammer works decently

Mon, 01/14/2013 - 09:38

#10

Thrillhaus

Who are these people saying guardian sucks?

Guardian does not suck.

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:15

#11

Thinslayer

I was once a guardian.

I was once a guardian. At first, the opposition was mostly striker clones. By the end of the game, about half of them had converted to guardians. It's a pretty strong ability when used properly (i.e., protecting others, esp. strikers).

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 05:07

#12

Hawxindanite

I tried being guardian once

Strikers ran at me using the full slow sword combos then i let down my sheild and hit them with a troika THEN a 2 hit flourish combo.

The above tac murders clones..........in T2, not sure about T3

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:23

#13

Batabii

I think the guardian shield

I think the guardian shield needs a huge buff. It should be a hard counter to striker. Instead the shield breaks in two hits.

It needs to be like this

guardian>striker>recon>guardian

While we're at it, wolver clones should get an additional penalty. And bombs need a damage buff. Not a status buff, just something to make bombs like DBB actually viable and not just "oh look a big glowing ring, I'll just wait here for 1 second and it won't touch me."

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 05:10

#14

Fradow

"I think the guardian shield

"I think the guardian shield needs a huge buff. It should be a hard counter to striker. Instead the shield breaks in two hits."
What would buffing the guardian shield resistance achieve ? Strikers would need one or 2 more hits to break it ? Making it an iron wall against everyone else (gunners and recons, gunners have lower damage and recons can't spam attacks). No, that's not a solution.

The real solution would be to remove or reduce flinch when your shield is hit : that way you'll have a real counter-attack window, contrary to current microscopic (if there is any at all) you have between when you recover from flinch and before the next attack. That's the real buff I want as a guardian.

"While we're at it, wolver clones should get an additional penalty. "
What penalty exactly ? The striker module clearly isn't balanced (2 med to one single weapon type, do not break on hit), balancing it would be a way (change one bonus to gun instead of sword, nerf the boost). Neither is wolver armors as a whole (there is a reason everyone use those).

"And bombs need a damage buff. "
Bombs aren't going to gain anything from a damage buff, since almost no one get hits in the first place. What they would need is to not have a huge red mark on the floor saying "step out of this, you have X seconds remaining".

But well, we are difting from the original subject. And the OP doesn't seem to care. It seems he just wanted to assert his opinion.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 06:02

#15

Pinkie-Girl

Looks at Rainsocket.... U

Looks at Rainsocket.... U saying? Rain is like One of the guys that relies on skill not ASI or trinky
He gets like 17M as Guardian
I mean K, sorry

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 10:43

#16

Sir-Pandabear

There is a way to win against strikers as a guardian even if you'er an amateur with swords.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 16:55

#17

Batabii

I mean make guardian shield

I mean make guardian shield RESIST striker specifically, without affecting its resistance to the other classes.

Also would invisible bombs (before detonation) be OP? bear in mind the status bombs have a big obvious effect cloud.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 05:00

#18

Raisinfist

Ty all

Fradow, I'm kinda referring to T2 here...

Sorry, I abandoned the thread a while back. I've now looked through it and have a couple ideas:
As a Guardian with a hammer (yes, people rage sometimes), it's pretty effective in T2. Most people try to break your shield with a full combo, which invariably fails if they're on their own, upon which they get sent off the point by the hammer. It helps that the DRmkII will flinch people a LOT - 1 hit will stop them from doing anything, so you have an opportunity there.

Sorry, by 'capping' I meant 'retaining bases' - the best I can put it, not quite like that. Closer to 'not letting the opposing team take more than 1/2 the bases', really. Unless the other team is [incompetent], don't get greedy and go for all the bases, as that lets them wipe your team clean out.

Invisible bombs would, admittedly, be kinda OP, as I have seen (in one case); the bomber on the opposing team with a Lightning Capacitor managed to drop it below the point, meaning that, pre-detonation, only the top of the bomb was visible. As I don't know the radius of it, I couldn't see where was 'safe'. Later, when it detonated, I had to try not to walk into an invisible cloud of stunlocking Shock mist.

On Guardians vs. DR bombers: A Guardian can easily shield through a DR bomb's circular bullets into the centre, allowing them to effectively bypass the bomb where nobody else can without taking damage. As the DR does little damage in reality per bullet, the shield shouldn't, in theory, be so badly off. Never tried it out as I seem to be the only DR bomber in T2.

That's all I have for now, thanks.
~Dried Grape

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 05:28

#19

Fradow

"Fradow, I'm kinda referring

"Fradow, I'm kinda referring to T2 here..."
Well ok, say that explicitely in the title or at the beginning of your post. I assume posts to be about T3 by default.

I'll only answer not tiers specifics concerns then.

"1 hit will stop them from doing anything, so you have an opportunity there."
I just want to point out every weapon does that. Even the tiniest bullet from a proto gun will stop you from doing anything.

"Invisible bombs would, admittedly, be kinda OP, as I have seen (in one case); the bomber on the opposing team with a Lightning Capacitor managed to drop it below the point, meaning that, pre-detonation, only the top of the bomb was visible"
That's exactly what I'd like to see happen. For the record, this problem already happen with out of screen guns and brandish charges. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say bombs are currently way underpowered due to how easy it is to avoid them. With that system, you'd have to actually look out for bombs instead of boosting in every direction, and have some knowledge about bomb radius instead of relying on huge obvious marks.

"invisible cloud of stunlocking Shock mist."
That's a bug which happens due to graphic glitch. Disable the cull transients options and you won't have any invisible haze clouds anymore.

"On Guardians vs. DR bombers"
Is there really DR bombers in T2 ? And are they a problem ? That's a real question, I never actually saw someone using it in T3, due to how bad it is for LD.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 08:00

#20

Raisinfist

@Fradow, mainly

Yes, there are DR bombers in T2. I'm one of them.
The main problem is that with 2-3 bombs on the point, anyone who comes on is stunlocked. Throw in an extra-short charge time and it can be pretty darn good for keeping a point, combined with a decent handgun.
Admittedly it gives no damage, but it helps for support (when it makes your enemy unable to do anything about it)

Ty for the cull-transient advice, I'll remember that. Usually I don't have much of a problem with other issues, ie. telegraphing not always showing up, as I can tell by the other animations when they'll attack.

Perhaps invisible bombs can help to balance with invisible super-long toothpicks.

Given that interrupting is so OP, why is it still in LD? It's possible, from my experience, to get caught by 1 striker with a Flourish and be unable to react before they kill you.

@Everyone else
If Guardian isn't that bad after all, then why are Strikers still prevalent? Admittedly they aren't a glass cannon any longer, and since it has been proved that Guardians can hold their own in a game (tyvm Panda), why do most people still go for Striker despite it not being the only viable option?

Also a buff to the shield's health would be helpful.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 08:58

#21

Zeddy

@Fradow

"I just want to point out every weapon does that. Even the tiniest bullet from a proto gun will stop you from doing anything."

Exactly! DR does a lot of hits. If each of them can flinch an enemy, I've got more guardian loadouts to try yet.

@Raisinfist

People like being fast. Also, while a guardian can hold its own against a striker, it will have problems against a gunslinger. Strikers, meanwhile, can in theory hold their own agaisnt anything.

Also, skolver-strikers get the most damage.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 10:06

#22

Fradow

"Given that interrupting is

"Given that interrupting is so OP, why is it still in LD? It's possible, from my experience, to get caught by 1 striker with a Flourish and be unable to react before they kill you."
My guess is that it was the default mechanism already in place and developers didn't think hard about it. There probably was very little feedback on that from beta-testers I guess, since it was not much an issue back then (no heart pendants = you'd die much faster, without the time to worry about interrupt).

Very few people actually notice that's a big problem. It really shows when you are experienced, and especially for guardians. Combination of those 2 leaves you with very few players.

"If Guardian isn't that bad after all, then why are Strikers still prevalent"
Because Strikers are OP. Guardians aren't bad per say, but Strikers just got every advantages without inconvenients, in the current meta-game. Also, don't underestimate the power of whispers : people heard Striker is OP, so that'll be their default choice (as well as the fact that they only see the higher damage, which is for Striker mostly all the time). They are blind to the fact that skill is still a much more important factor, and every role play differently (some people can't Striker, like Zeddy or me).

"Also a buff to the shield's health would be helpful."
Not in my opinion, a solution for flinching would be helpful. If you just get a bigger health, you'll just survive a little longer before dying. Guardians don't really need more health. They need to be able to retaliate.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 12:51

#23

Krakob

Wait, who says so?

I usually play Guardian and I kick a lot of butt, usually end up in top three, damage-wise, in my team.
Caps?
Yeah, I do those too. Quite a bit.
Screenie of my best results ever.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 22:52

#24

Batabii

I'm not saying the BLAST

I'm not saying the BLAST should be invisible, just the "fuse" ring and probably the bomb itself.

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 05:14

#25

Zeddy

@Batabii

I think you are seriously overestimating how much help bombs need in LD. Making the bombs outright invisible wouldn't be fun for anyone involved. I can agree on removing the fuse ring (though personally I think keeping the ring and merely hiding the timer aspect of it would do plenty), but outright hiding the bomb itself is just too much.

Now shard bombs, on the other hand, I can see needing to become entirely invisble to become useful. Perhaps showing the fuse ring but hiding the shard spread would make them a bit interesting?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 12:33

#26

Sandy-Knight

N-N-N-NECRO!

I know this is a necro, but bear with me please.

So regarding making all bombs invisible:
How about forcing Cull Transients on the bomb/making it visible to only your teammates? This is not just the bomb radius, this is the actual bomb.

Pros:
>Dramatically increases viability of bombs. (Not much else to be said.)
>Discourages Strikers from rushing onto a point and AA-SS combo into everyone on the point. Because they're frozen/Stunned/halfway across the map/otherwise incapacitated etc.

Cons:
>People have no way of seeing it if they rush onto a point.
>Bombers potentially become OP with bombs such as Haze Bombs. (Invisible Voltaic Tempest... oh boy, YES.)
>Large amounts of frustration from people who aren't careful to see if the bomber's dropping bombs. (Wait, this is a good thing, right?)

Thoughts below?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 14:33

#27

Atacii

...

As long as the explosion/mist cloud as well as the actual placing of the bomb is visible, I would have no problems with it.

It is, after all, mindlessly easy to boost in between consecutive non-mist bomb placements and whack the bomber.

Can't say that I support the suggested change, though. Bombs need an overhaul, not a hacky bandage.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 15:10

#28

Zeddy

@Anon-Troll

Now shard bombs, on the other hand, I can see needing to become entirely invisble to become useful. Perhaps showing the fuse ring but hiding the shard spread would make them a bit interesting?

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 04:29

#29

Sandy-Knight

Why not, Zeddy? All it does is encourages people to first be more careful too see if there's a bomber planting bombs on the point, and then to get a decent gun as a sidearm.

Yes, bombs do need fixing properly, but this is about the best we can ever expect OOO to do.

That said...
Perhaps keeping only the actual bomb visible would be good, and removing both the radius and timer, would be better than making it invisible. Not sure what to do with Haze Bombs, though.

Search

LD: I hear you say the Guardian is terrible...