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Valiance with damage Bonus?

27 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
Mo, 01/14/2013 - 08:59
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Spiralviperr

How much damage would a Valiance do with VH or Max damage bonus in the sixth strata?

Wiki doesn't say...

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 09:20
#1
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Bopp
Lancer Knightz to the rescue!

The guild Lancer Knightz has a ton of data, including the numbers you want (at depth 24, at least):

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Handgun_Damage_(Depth_24)

See also the wiki page "Abilities" for rules of thumb about how big damage bonuses are.

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 10:01
#2
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Little-Juances

"Wiki doesn't say..."

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Abilities
"Each level of bonus adds an average of 7% extra damage."

Grab a calculator and try again.

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 10:12
#3
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Rabeet-Ahsan
I do have to admit that the

I do have to admit that the Data you guys have there is very impressive as it might have taken a lot of time to collecut it.

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 10:54
#4
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Aureate
Oh, yes.

Unfortunately, a lot of that data needs recollecting, since after the buff to gun and bomb damage last year, I suspect that many of the values are no longer accurate - I'm not sure if all of them got updated.

Before you go updating any information, though, please do make sure that you're not wearing any equipment that gives damage bonuses for the weapon you're gathering data on, that the weapon is fully heated, and that it doesn't have any vs. family UVs, because that can mess with the results.
Seem to recall Bopp mentioning that the Guild Training Hall results give the damage values for where the Clockwork Terminal would be at that tier.
EDIT: The training halls are at depths 1, 13, and 23 respectively.

It's also worth noting that certain 'heavy' monsters from the families (Trojans, Deadnaughts, Alpha Wolvers, Lichen Colonies and suchlike) may have lower damage values than the rest of the family; it's also possible to encounter a different tier or stratum's version of monsters (t3 Blast Cubes or Jelly Cubes in RJP, or the Danger Rooms, for example). I'm reasonably certain that you shouldn't bother getting values from either of these... unless you're some kind of masochist.

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 11:12
#5
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Spiralviperr
Moo

Thanks guys, decided to make a nova driver instead ¬_¬

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 11:42
#6
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Bopp
LK data don't need recollecting

Rabeet-Ahsan: Yes, these numbers do take a while to collect. Thanks for appreciating that. :)

Aureate: It is true that many damage numbers throughout the wiki have not been updated since the May buff --- but not the Lancer Knightz data. The guild (with some help from me) collected all of these damage data just in the past few months.

Mo, 01/14/2013 - 22:10
#7
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Batabii
Even with TWO "damage bonus

Even with TWO "damage bonus vs x maximum"s it's probably STILL inferior to Polaris, Umbra Driver, Blitz Needle, etc

Di, 01/15/2013 - 21:37
#8
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Thinslayer
@Batabii

Is not! I'm a Valiance user, and it's one of the best darn guns I've ever had the pleasure of using. Its shots are fast, deal enough KB to keep enemies at range (where guns are strongest) and does enough damage to keep me interested. Polaris still takes the cake for general purpose utility, but sometimes it deals too much KB at range and too little up close, plus it can blind party members. Blitz Needle does great damage, but has to be used up close, where swords would be safer, and immobilizes you for too long. Blitz is a good weapon, but not on par with Valiance or Polaris for utility and safety. I've never used the Umbra Driver, so I won't diss it.

Don't diss the Valiance. It's the trustiest gun this side of Cradle.

Mi, 01/16/2013 - 10:29
#9
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Batabii
It has no status effect, no

It has no status effect, no type, and I don't see how more knockback is bad.

It's not trusty, it's pointless.

Mi, 01/16/2013 - 11:02
#10
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Comnrade-Conrad
@Bopp I've collected some

@Bopp I've collected some data for most of the guns in the T3 guild training hall in the past month, and I'm only missing the damage stats for the plague needle, iron slug, biohazard, and supernova. My stats seem be different from the Lancer Knightz (not sure if same depth or if things got buffed/nerfed) so I'd appreciate it if you could help add my data to the wiki.

Mi, 01/16/2013 - 11:34
#11
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Ndcoten
Maximum

At max damage, Vali shots will do 174 damage at D24. I think you get about 163 from an Ultra.

Mi, 01/16/2013 - 12:09
#12
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Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

@Comrad: Plague Needle damage stats in t3 ath, if you want them.
If there's anything else you need from that gun, let me know and I'd be happy to help out.

Mi, 01/16/2013 - 14:52
#13
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Bopp
Comrade-Conrad, Aureate

Comrade-Conrad, the Tier-3 ATH is at depth 23. So it won't perfectly match the Lancer Knightz data, which are from depth 24 or depth 19. I'd like to get your data. If you don't have somewhere to post them online (in CSV format, say), then could you just post them right into this thread?

Also, thanks Aureate.

If you guys don't mind, I'll alert Donkeyhaute to these data and he'll clean them up and credit you scrupulously.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 03:24
#14
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Batabii
processing thoughts of spam spam spam spam

@conrade I do have a level 10 biohazard if you'd like damage numbers.

Also more people should use the GTH numbers for consistency's sake, since you have all enemy types and no dodging or unpredictable enemy behavior.

EDIT: whoops, looks like the numbers are already here:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/72662

Do, 01/17/2013 - 12:36
#15
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Comnrade-Conrad
Thanks Aureate, Bopp, and

Thanks Aureate, Bopp, and Batabii. I've added the info to mine but the stats for max damage are still missing. Perhaps they can be filled in later. I'm also going to omit the data for the biohazard since its base damage number isn't going to be useful to me on its own, hopefully they can be completed with somebody else who can test them with +2,4, and 6 damage bonuses.

Here's a link to download the data I've had, it's in excel format.

http://www.mediafire.com/?rd1mx6dmmw38u91

Some notes:

-All weapons heated to level 10
-Testing done at Tier 3 Guild hall training
-Tested with base damage, medium, very high, and max damage
-Missing weapons: Iron Slug, Biohazard, Supernova, Plague Needle (partially), and AP/Sentenza (I lied about the AP, forgot about that too)
-Alchemer charge shots don't take into account the ricochets, so their damage is underestimated.

Some interesting things:

-A critical polaris' expanded shot deals the same damage as a nova/umbra driver's critical damage. While a small bullet deals the same damage as any of the status drivers.
-A critical polaris charge attack deals the same damage as a nova/umbra driver's critical charge attack (minus the ricochets)
-The blitz needle's maxxed charge attack gains an impressive additional 1000 damage from its base damage, and the Pepperbox follows close behind with an extra 900 damage.
-Normal damage weapons seem to benefit the greatest percentage wise from damage bonuses, but nonetheless are outclassed by specialized weapons (no surprise)
-Weapon damage bonuses seem to grow linearly - however, the autogun line (especially blitz needle) seems to scale its damage at a higher rate then most weapons (slightly overpowered?)
-A plague needle's normal damage deals the same amount of damage as a volcanic pepperbox for both regular and charge attacks.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 05:56
#16
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Aureate
ily2 batabii <3

Right, will do the Sentenza numbers as soon as I've got mine up to max heat. I'll try to get my hands on an Elite Trueshot Trinket at some point as well, just for completeness to have the max numbers.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 04:54
#17
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Hawxindanite
Blasters

Are easily comparable to my desert eagle weilding in FPS's and they be hatin'

Valiance is badass with that UV

Valiance is awesome cause it does good damage with fast bullet speed and minor KB which I have used to push peeps into shadow fire in LD XD. In many ways it undermines all the other guns being the all rounder...

Do, 01/17/2013 - 09:24
#18
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Bopp
damage bonus seems to be a constant 5%

-Normal damage weapons seem to benefit the greatest percentage wise from damage bonuses, but nonetheless are outclassed by specialized weapons (no surprise)
-Weapon damage bonuses seem to grow linearly - however, the autogun line (especially blitz needle) seems to scale its damage at a higher rate then most weapons (slightly overpowered?)

There are some very slight variations in how damage bonuses affect weapons, perhaps due to rounding errors. But Donkeyhaute and I have been analyzing the Lancer Knightz data at depths 19 and 24, and we have found each level of damage bonus to give consistently about 5% increase in damage.

Details: The Lancer Knightz data encompass damage bonus +0, +2, +4, and +6 on most of the 5-star swords, guns, and bombs. To understand how big of a jump each +2 damage bonus gives, we convert the data into (X, Y) pairs, where each Y is at +2 more damage bonus than the corresponding X. We fit a line of the form Y = M X to these pairs. The quality of this fit is very high --- every point lies very close to the fit line. The correlation coefficient is 0.999566, where 1 basically means "perfect fit". The best-fit slope M is 1.10167; thus each two levels of damage bonus give a 10.167% increase in damage. The square root of 1.10167 is 1.0496; thus each level of damage bonus gives a 4.96% increase.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 10:36
#19
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Sir-Pandabear

I think damage bonuses do more for weapons that do low damage than those that do high. At the very least, shard bombs go from doing slightly less damage than a BAB to doing much more at the same levels of damage bonuses (this is assuming you hit with core + 2 shards).

Stick this in your pipe and analyze it.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 10:59
#20
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Bopp
I'm talking about damage per hit; you're talking DPS

No problem. I've done the same analysis to the raw damage numbers for Big Angry Bomb and Sun Shards "core and shard" that you linked. Using just the BAB and SS damage numbers, I get an extremely good fit with a resulting 5.39% increase in damage per level of damage bonus. That's slightly higher than what I got for other weapons, but pretty close, and very consistent. If I throw these numbers in with all of Lancer Knightz other numbers, then I again get an extremely good fit with a resulting 4.964% increase per level of damage bonus. So the data you linked are consistent with what I claimed above.

You are bringing in a new issue of DPS. DPS depends not just on the raw damage per hit, but also on how fast you can deliver those hits. If CTR/ASI does not affect all weapons equally, then a weapon that benefits a lot from CTR/ASI may overtake a weapon that doesn't benefit as much from CTR/ASI. Indeed, this is my experience: There is much more variation in how CTR/ASI affects weapons, than in how damage bonus affects weapons.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 11:21
#21
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Sir-Pandabear
I was actually just talking about damage

But with a percentage increase, it doesn't actually matter whether we're talking DPS or damage.

BAB goes from 264 to 357, an increase of 35%.

Crystal bomb goes from 95 to 155, an increase of 63%, (50% for the core blast).

I've got my calculator in front of me and it's giving me a happy face. That's 63%/6 stages of damage bonus = 10,5% increase per level of damage bonus. This is over twice your number, which does not strike me as being very consistent at all.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 11:41
#22
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Bopp
shard bombs are acting differently --- interesting

You don't want to compute the rate of increase by dividing the total percentage increase by 6. Instead, you want to compute the sixth root of the total increase ratio (because the effect seems to be multiplicative, not additive). So I get

BAB: 5.158% increase per level of damage bonus
Sun Shards/Crystal Bomb "core": 7.077%
Sun Shards "shard": 8.48%
Crystal Bomb "shard": 8.501%

In any event, you are right that these shard bombs are acting a bit differently from most other weapons. (The Lancer Knightz data don't yet include any shard bomb data.) Thanks for pointing this out! I'll look into it. I'll also examine whether my method of analysis is hiding any other special cases like this.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 12:00
#23
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Sir-Pandabear
@Bopp

I think there may be some curving shenanigans going on. Let's examine sun shards again:

81 87 94 102 111 124 132

If we look at the increase, it goes:

Base, +6, +7, +8, +9, +13, +8

Damage increase increases per level, which seems consistent with your multiplicative theory thing right until that last jump from ultra to max. Very odd. Crystal again:

95 105 116 128 137 146 155

Base, +10, +11, +12, +9, +9, +9

There appears to be a curve or something that rises the most around 120 for both bombs.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 12:12
#24
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Bopp
yep, weird

Yep, it's weird. Thanks again. I've seen some other weird things, when looking at various damage numbers. For example, Graviton Vortex's explosion does less damage in deep strata than in shallow strata?! We can spend a long time delving into these details. So please do (someone). I have plenty of projects going on already.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 12:44
#25
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Comnrade-Conrad
Just wanted to say that I

Just wanted to say that I reuploaded the file cause the original link was broken.

@Bopp Also regarding the damage increase - while it is good that you've managed to average everything out and determine the average increase in damage for all the weapons, I wanted to point out that the blitz line seemed to be an outlier for its damage bonuses. If you take at the charts I've made in the excel file you'll see what I mean.

One more thing - I'm also collecting data on monster HP for FSC and RJP, I'm wondering if anybody else is doing the same thing.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 16:14
#26
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Bopp
good

Comrade-Conrad: When I plot all of the Blitz Needle damage from depths 19 and 24, they lie pretty close to a line (correlation coefficient 0.999652) with a resulting 5.062% damage increase per level of damage bonus. But when I look at depth 24 in more detail, the increments seem to be as small as 4.101%. Hmm. About your other remark: People have tried to gather data on knights' health (the most recent example is here). I remember a thread about monster health a long time ago, but I'm not aware of any completed, thorough project on it. So please do it.

Everyone: There seems to be a sudden interest in gathering data about the game. That's great. I encourage everyone who's interested to read the Wiki Editors forum regularly. There's not much traffic there, but it's all about recording data and documenting the game.

Do, 01/17/2013 - 16:41
#27
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Batabii
you know, instead of

you know, instead of mediafire, you can use google to share excel spreadsheets...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet

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