Spiral Knights - Buff the monsters... seriously (or atleast T3)

Buff the monsters... seriously (or atleast T3)

25 replies [Last post]

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 11:18

The-Dragon-Child

I've been playing this game for a very long time already and what I always disliked was that monsters did become very weak due to lots of nerfs and weapons getting buffed (exception of RSS which got overnerfed). I am expecting lots of hate in this post but I want this game to be more challenging and atm I find nothing challenging except for Red Roarmullus Twins (which is a cluster**** and really I don't want anything challenging in the way that mist bombs or the only resort to winning it). I update my post frequently.

The Deadnaughts Series are killed way too easily now mainly because their speed has been reduced big time when they are non-dashing. I suggest buffing their health a bit more since of their lack of speed.

The Wolvers Series after some arguing seem fine to me since their main focus is swarming the players (wrong). They are not meant to swarm peope like Sev and the buffs and nerfs he mentions for the Wolvers could be some nice additions.

Ice Queen is a major let down in my opinion. It's the easiest part of the entire SL run. (EVERY arena is harder than Ice Queen herself in that SL) She should be given a lot more hitpoints since she dies way too fast imo. It's an SL she should be difficult to defeat. Though I have to admit it's mostly the Dark Retribution that brings her down very fast for me and the Acheron.

Arkus seems fine to me since he's a main storyline boss.

Lord Vanaduke is SK's end boss. I suggest nerfing the Blitz Needle which after a certain patch had been buffed even more making it a devastating weapon against Lord Vanaduke. He also should be immune to any crowd control status mainly since this makes him exceptionally easy to defeat. Trapping him for the whole match when you use for example the Shivermist Buster.

The Tier 1 enemies in depth 27 of FSC should be replaced with their Tier 3 variants. I can't figure out why they put T1 enemies here.

From a Veteran SK player...

Noticing the replies I have to say that I did not mention anything about Slagwalkers being buffed since their main focus is swarming the players.

@Yauj: You know that this game used to be a lot more difficult do you? Because of the weapons buffs and all the buffs to the knights and nerfing certain monsters the game became way too easy. (And now they are even bringing more buffs: Battle Sprites)

The only main reason someone would die is because of the lack of lag-compensation which kills most people with higher ping. I just want the difficulty back how it used to be. It's way to nerfed now making it no fun anymore (I can freaking kill Vana in proto armor/no uvs and still don't die a single time due to everything there having become sluggish as hell that being patient and having decent weaponry would be the only necessary requirement). Back then I used to have lots of fun playing FSC, because it actually was a challenge, and now here I am using the exact same gear having no trouble at all like it used to be, NOT because of the experience I gained but because nothing there actually manages to hit me because they are slow as hell (Even when I first played I figured everything was slow). Even my sister who doesn't play this game much at all manages to defeat Vana. Like I said Vana is an END BOSS, it is MEANT to be hard just like how it was when it was first released. It is very overnerfed now. Even when I go without the OP blitz I can still defeat him.

Greavers are easily countered if you just manage to hit them before they perform their attack. Ice Queen which is an SL boss can be downed in the same amount of time as JK.

Also .. I spend more time playing this game (a day?) than the casual player? No I'm not. I'm like only 1 hour at Vana (2 runs) and then idle out at Haven or play another game or talk to people at SK since I use it as an alternative to a chat program. Being in the clockworks for me is a rarity now since I just get bored even when I put a foot in the lobby. I think in this game 3/4th of my total time played has been spend in Haven chatting.

@Zeyez
The mist bombs actually are OP against Vana. When he is trapped he practically becomes completely useless that's why I don't want crowd control to affect him. It makes "the end boss Vanaduke" a helpless fly stuck in a web.

@Troupe-Forums
If that is true then Blitz truely is OP

@Klipik
Make SL harder? I am a free 2 play player I can't play SL everytime I need to fund a GH too. Atleast bring that huge amount of energy down to somewhat decent amount so more F2P players also get the chance to play it more.

The T1 enemies at Vana depth 27: The T1 Flame puppies and T1 Trojans. (Possibly their HP and damage output have been scaled to T3 but they still seem weaker than the T3 versions. Especially the flame puppies lose their lock on ability.

@Canine-Vladmir
Fiends are good enough in my opinion since the main reason what could kill you is you being unable to dodge their attacks because of the lag some people get. Fiends are fast which makes them very difficult to beat with lag. FSC.. everything there is slow as hell so even 1 bar connection is still survivable (tested at the Asian Server)

The main reason why players never reach the end is because they most of the time don't get past Royal Jelly's HoH because they already quit because they find the game boring. Or they only play for the TF2 hats you can get with the achievements like Klipik said. I have enough friends who went inactive because how boring the game actually gets because eventhough the trailer said "NO GRINDING" they have to grind grind and grind to finally get the gear to go past HoH. Some people I knew stopped because they find the game way to easy and they get fed up with grinding Royal Jelly. Boredom is the main reason why people stop playing. EVEN the main reason for most of the newer players. (and the elevator fee xD @Jackaline)

@Zeddy That's what I mean they cba to keep doing the same mission over and over and over again (I wonder who notices the reference) just to gether the amount of resources to get eventually 5 star.

@Senorclean It might look ugly but there are lots of players who collect all the hats that are available.

@Lishanglin NO 1HKOs this is not BF3 or Crysis 3 like Altrumvindex says

@Son-Of-Guns Hard mode actually could be a nice implementation I would like that tbh... and like I said the latency issues in this game are very annoying xD

@Fehzor You're not meant to kill Vanaduke with a sword-only since it's the most logical thing you would think of after seeing those orbs of fire in the 3rd and 5th phase. Also I'm not asking for that kind of buff to Vana I want him to be resistant to the mist bombs which makes him to easy to beat (way to easy). Regarding "Vanaduke is not easy to beat at all" I have a video up defeating him without mist bombs or blitz. Just my trusty Callahan.

A better AI for the Deadnaughts is acceptable too since I really dislike the current one xD.

"Wolvers are derpy... the ice queen doesn't even do ice. These could easily be fixed, make the ice queen drop those ice blocks from HoI or something... and let wolvers in T2/3 turn their heads to bite people. They used to be scary... beasts are a joke now." -totally agree. These could be some easy fixes to get the difficulty up. Getting the tracking wolver attacks could make it more difficult and wouldn't make them seem underpowered anymore.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 12:21

Zeyez

eyes trying to see the end to another end

>> Arkhus can't be buffed so much because will not affect the players who already passed him
unless you wanna become in some kind of boss, giving tokens when defeated... and come on, he is not maded to become boss, unless you change his history background, after all, he is killed by us
and in the end, even we asked why he became a outsider, or a Trojan, because i do not want to become a Trojan

>> Wolvers need buff because they lose the track ability, making it easy to avoid their attacks
partial track (some turn speed) on the target can be enough (no track on tier 1, partial track on tier 2-3, full track on sl version [on the first bite only])

>> about Vanaduke, we already have SL Vanaduke and his immunity against mist bombs
if you want "increase the difficult" against him, try nerf or modify any overpowered weapon in general, like charged Blitz or chaos set...
he is not weak, some weapons that make it easily defeasible

in general, the game has to be scaled at different levels of difficulty, so that beginners can learn about the game without big risks (tier 1) and that veterans have a place to test your skills to the limit (Shadow Lair), unless you wanna scare the newbies
remember: some veterans stopto play, because begin to feel bored with the game as they finished the missions, so the least the game should offer is a renewal of players

"from a Veteran SK player..." too (besides i never started one sl run yet =/)

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 13:18

Troupe-Forums

Vanaduke actually has no weakness to pierce. Charged blitz bullets do the same damage to him as they do to the slags that spawn during the fight.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 14:16

Klipik

I say keep T3 the same, but make SL's harder (I say this never having run one). Also, what's this about T1 enemies in FSC?

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 14:20

Canine-Vladmir

MHMM

YEEESSSSSSSS. Buff T3
+1

Im close to suggesting buffing Fiends too but i dont think the community would respond well to that.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 14:25

Klipik

Buffing Greavers would be fine. Devilites, not so much :P

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 15:08

Bugtester

It's always the same

What most people on the forum don't seem to see is, that they are playing this game for a lot more time and for a lot longer than the normal casual player.
You actually answered your problem in the first sentence:
"I've been playing this game for a very long time already [...]"
And then you say:
"atm I find nothing challenging"
Does that seem strange to you? Because really, it's not. Try playing Monster Hunter, with time something that you couldn't even dream of becomes a story of 5 to 10 minutes. Making T3 harder only makes this game less appealing to beginners. Even less than it already is. The transition between T2 and 3 would be just to great of a hurdle. You have hit the End game, which is called so, because it is the end of the game. At some point there just is nothing left. What you need is something new, something beyond T3, NOT taking T3 from those that need it.
What you are suggesting is not just selfish but also more than too much. There are people other than the elitists on the forums.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 18:28

The-Dragon-Child

~~~

Edited into main post.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 21:57

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

After forming some newcomer, I can tell you Vanaduke is harder than you think. You simply got used to it...

Personally I would try to alter Vanaduke Transition between phase 2 to 3 and 4 to 5 with the mobs spawning... Personally I would put some normal spawners for Slags instead of Vanaduke ability... Just spawning slags and zombols more often could be enough

No need to go overboard with it, a simple tweak could be enough to fix Vanaduke difficulty...

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 07:06

Bugtester

No sense argueing

Of course you would argue with "but mah friends!", which is not a good argument as well, but we could play that back and forth. And yes, even one hour a day can be more than a casual player.
But that all aside, let me just end this by giving you a number:
Steam has achievements. You can see how many people managed to complete each achievement. Of all the players with steam how many do you think managed to earn "Free Spirit", defeating Vanaduke in the Firestorm Citadel?
1%
If you look even further and take all achievements into consideration you can clearly see how there are constantly less people willing to continue deeper into the clockworks.
Now have fun argueing that it still needs to be more difficult, so even less people manage to reach T3. Why not raise crafting costs, while at it?

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 07:19

#10

Zeddy

To be fair only 1.4% even alchemized a single 5* item. I don't think the game's difficulty, per se, is the problem as much as the absurd amount of time/luck/devotion it takes to earn resources for your first 5* set.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 08:44

#11

Bugtester

Shh he doesn't need to know!

Jokes aside, only few people get even that far, true, but the numbers are still far to low to say that everyone just waltzes over Vana like nothing.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 10:07

#12

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Zeddy and Yauj
While the difficulty of reaching T3 and crafting 5* equipment is definitely challenging in a way and requires time and devotion to the game, I think another factor is the over simplicity of T1. It is far too simple and easy compared to the rest of the game. T3 is a nice boost in difficulty compared to T2, but T2 is a huge ramp-up in difficulty compared to the simplistic nature of T1. Especially with how things are now, what with the T1 boss being Beast themed which is universally regarded as a ridiculously overly nerfed monster family.
I'm concerned that players get a bit too bored before they really reach the good stuff. I mean they might also get bored from the grinding of T2 and T3, but usually by then SK has already reeled them in with its charm and gameplay so they'd be more likely to stay. So I say, buff T1 and make it more interesting/challenging.

Also, yeah give some more end-game content, but that's a given. We've been waiting quite a while for the Core and the Swarm stuff to really get rolling.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 18:30

#13

The-Dragon-Child

~~~

Edited into main post.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 20:08

#14

Klipik

dem steam achievements

The real reason is that so many people either 1) installed, didn't like it, and quit or 2) played for the steam achievement/TF2 hat and left.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 20:13

#15

Senorclean

1)hat looks ugly 2) if they

1)hat looks ugly
2) if they didnt like it, then they should just buff t3 monster, FSC is so boring because you do the run way too much so you get used to it and also the buffed up slags dont even make a difference because the slags arent even close to a zombie

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 20:30

#16

Jackaline

When I started playing,

When I started playing, something that really put me off was when I found my mist energy depleted. In contrast, TF2 doesn't prevent you from playing. It wasn't really the bosses, because, well, I never even reached them before I stopped playing. In fact, I only really began playing persistently when the level payoff meant that mist energy wasn't that much of an inhibitor. If everyone had elevator passes, I think fewer players would have left, and more of us would find ourselves enjoying the game and feeling compeled to purchase those vanity items.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 20:51

#17

Lishanglin

One hit kills

What they need is one hit kills.
Like if you have a gran faust in JK, and you hit a jelly they should die with one hit.
In OCH tier 1, I used my faust but it took 2 hits to kill even the gremlins.

Wed, 02/27/2013 - 23:49

#18

Softhead

@Crysis 3?

NO.

Why would you want it easier, with OHKO?

Please, I'm kindly asking you to GTFO.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 05:56

#19

Fleet-Miss-Gun

So does this means that Oatmonster is your alt or vice versa because you also basically said GTFO the same way as Oatmonster?

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 07:26

#20

El-Odio

Just to have said it

It may be just me, knowing full well how "fun" it is to see a real challenge in fighting Vanaduke or the last arena before him, that I can not see any appeal in your suggestion. How is it fun to waste energie on revives? How is it fun to fail on the last boss? How is it fun to be hit by random lava plates, being stuck in them and also dieing?
Except for the last one, which is rather difficult to avoid, being a random bug, I am quite happy to have outgrown all this - and I would under no circumstances want go back to them. For me it's not fun clobbing waves of waves of zombies with high HP in a narrow room. It's no fun either fighting for more than 5 minutes in a single room. There is no appeal for me in chopping away at some lifebars for hours on end, if it really is just that. Grinding is bad, bad grinding within a grind is even worse.
For example, I prefer "Built to destroy" every day of the week to setting a foot into the FSC, simply because it is so much more fun. It has clever level design, the puzzles and traps actually reward skill, you are never treated unfair and the enemies, while not really strong, are still intergrated so well, that you don't have to bother with rooms 3/4 full with zombies.
FSC on the other hand, has a really boring design, the puzzles are stupid (carry statue from A to B is no fun), the traps are really just a nuisance to clobbing zombies for hours on end, several bugs and strange AI at times really ruin the fun, and the enemies? The enemies are the worst. Slagwalkers over and over again. And again. And they have so much HP that it just becomes a chore to keep hitting them, over and over again. Sure, you could give them more HP and stronger attacks, but that won't solve the "fun problem", but only prolong a hardly bearable suffering.

I absolutly agree, Vanaduke is no fun - but not because he is to easy. He is simply no fun. The Boss from Ghost in the Machine, that one is fun. Roarmulus Twins, even the normal ones, are fun. But Vanaduke, regardless of easiness, is not. Prolonging the buttpain of a fight with him would be anything BUT(t) fun.

Also, Arkus is a one time story boss, meant to be beaten soley for the progression of the story. He holds nothing of value and is exacly as difficult as he should be for someone of that level.

Wolvers sure are easy, but they usually come in great numbers and are still annoying for gunners without a Blitzneedle. The problem with them is, that it's not equally difficult for everyone, so raising there difficulty would be harder on some players than on others.

All in all, I can just say that I absolutly dislike the idea of buffing anything right now. I'd rather see some good new content or rework of something existing than bother with something that I already can't stand.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 18:18

#21

Son-Of-Guns

Adding hardmode?

I think the difficulty is fine now
I'm free 2 play and I took 3 months to get to Vanguard

Personally, as a not-so-old player, I don't think increasing the whole game's difficulty is a great idea because not many new players can afford good 5 star gear(I mean 5 star gear for every damage or defense type)

So using 4 star gear in 5 star missions (rank 9) is not easy, I watched people die like a million times as "we" don't have good gear and some of "them" don't have good ping(while I have).

I think the best option is to add something like hardmode in party option so those /bored Vanguards will have something challenging.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 18:31

#22

Fehzor

I would agree with some of these, but not vanaduke. Try fighting him without using blitz needle/shiver. Do swords only vanaduke. Most parties have several blitz needlers and a shivermist buster at their disposal. Vanaduke is not easy at all, until you've fought him several thousand times.

Arkus is also plenty hard. You might think he's easy now- what if you had to fight multiple of him? Buffing him would be nice, but I'm not sure that it would be the smartest course of action, with regards to new avenues for content.

Deadnauts are also plenty hard. Try soloing the last arena of League of Almire and then come back and tell me to buff them... if they are going to get a buff, I would like for it to be something like better AI and not better stats.

Wolvers are derpy... the ice queen doesn't even do ice. These could easily be fixed- make the ice cream drops those ice blocks from HoI or something... and let wolvers in T2/3 turn their heads to bite people. They used to be scary... beasts are a joke now.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 19:06

#23

The-Dragon-Child

Post updated

Updated the post merging my multiple replies to post into the main post.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 19:38

#24

Severage

I have to say that as an endgame player now, and not the worst at playing, buffing enemies would be great.

But I would also have to say that as an F2P player going through T1 and T2 for months, T3 was taboo for the longest time for me. I was well on my way to 5* before I even attempted T3, because the change was so much more than T1 to T2. I was almost fully 5* before my very first Vanaduke run. Tell that to an F2Per now, they'll wonder how I ever got the crowns to make 5* gear.

After a few depths, I became used to it, and now T1/T2 are pathetically easy, but I don't think it's undertuned for the most part. I think it's under-tuned for, shall we call 'em, post-endgame players. That's kinda what Shadow Lairs are for. Unfortunately Shadow Lairs are out of reach for the vast majority of F2Pers, and other than for the fun we have little to no reason to waste 450 CE going there.

I have not done IQ or Darkfire Vanaduke, for reasons stated above, but I have done Rabid Snarbolax. I have to say that if IQ is as easy as Royal Jelly is relative to the other 2 bosses, IQ needs a buff...because Royal Jelly does as well. In terms of difficulty, snarbolax (Of course in the relevant gear) is more difficult than Royal Jelly, with Vanaduke being the most difficult. Royal Jelly was more difficult than Snarbolax, but they nerfed the poor thing.

There are no T1 enemies in D27 on FSC, that I recall. Some screenshots or a short video would be nice so we know what you're talking about.

Dreadnaught AI: Yes, it needs to be fixed and/or reworked...or even buffed. It's just kinda lame.

Wolvers...I do not think are fine, regardless of counter-arguments. They are pathetically easy, even easier than Slags, no matter which tier you're in. Tier 3 wolvers need to have Tracking put back on their bites. I also argue that they don't "swarm" players like Slags, since they only appear in packs...and fairly small packs at that. Maybe 4-6 wolvers per pack, 2 packs are the most you'll see at once even in a Wolver Den.

I understand tracking mechanics on wolvers were brutal for new players, esp. ones that didn't have Piercing Defences, but for T3, it needs to be put back in. These guys got nerfed too hard.

That said, they also need to be nerfed in some respect. While adding tracking in T3 is imo a must, they dodge every bullet you send their way. I wouldn't mind that except some players exclusively use bullets. They should have a (short) cooldown on their burrow ability.

Vanaduke is also not superbly easy, though he is with Shivermist and/or Blitz Needle(s). Shivermists in my opinion seemed like an exploit OOO didn't think of, and left it in the game knowing too many people would complain he was too hard if they removed it. Hence, DFV's resistance. Vanaduke would be better served being reworked rather than simply more powerful or less powerful. I mean really, his mask phases are more difficult than him even without shivermist or blitz needles.

~Sev

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 04:05

#25

Xymjak

Please buff T3-monsters!

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Buff the monsters... seriously (or atleast T3)