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Making LD teams fair - Introducing Warhammer Point System

12 replies [Last post]
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 00:30
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Reto brought up a good point here about players requiring a point system in order to balance Lockdown teams. However, I disagree with his method, and my method is kinda a bit too chunky and independent to work with his thread.

I thought I’d go with a method that has stood true for balanced games for the past 30 years: the Warhammer point system.
However, in this case, the player equipment decides the team’s “point quota”, not the other way around.

What happens is, every loadout is assigned a point value. This point value is comprised of what star rating the equipment is, what UVs they have, and how many trinket and weapon slots are open. Note that if a player has more than two weapons, only the two weapons with the highest point value are calculated towards the loadout’s score. (as per the current loadout tier rating system) In addition, there's a base value which differs per tier. This is because even a weaponless, armorless player can cap and distract.

Next, when the player enters the lockdown match, the server adds each player’s highest point value loadout that is marked for PvP to a match total. Dividing this match total by two, the server then assigns players to a team in a fashion so that the teams equal approximately the same point value.

(This would be calculated by the server arranging the teams in each of the hundred or so combinations, taking the difference between the point values of the teams in each scenario, and then sticking with the one with the lowest point value difference)

This system would prevent the player “hiding” their point value if they entered the game in proto (if current gear value was taken), players from being assigned an overinflated point value if they had too many loadouts marked PvP (if sum of loadouts value was taken), or players from masking their true skill (if average point value of loadout was taken)

This can bring up a new sort of tactic where unequipping things you don’t need allows your teammates to have more equipment. And if a 3 star player wanders into a Tier 3 match, they’re not dragging everyone down.

Here’s a basic idea: 


Point Table    0*   1*   2*   3*   4*   5*
___________________________________________
Base Price     20   20   50   50   125  125
Armor/Weapon   10   15   30   45   70   100
+Armor UV      1    1    3    4    6    8
+Weapon UV*    1    1    3    4    8    10
Def/Res Trink  -    -    3    4    6    8
Mod Trinket    -    -    -    -    10   30
Hrt Trinket    -    10   25   40   60   80

*does not include family bonus UVs.

Here's an example of some player point values:


Point Table    0*   1*   2*   3*   4*   5*
__________________________________________
Stock (1weap)  50   65   140  185  335  425
Stock           60   80   170  230  405  525
Stock + 2Hrt   60   100  220  310  525  685
OMG triplemax* 100  140  340  470  797  1037

*A player with two heart pendants, triple max UVs on both their armor, and double maxes on their two equipped weapons.

Additionally, a modifier is applied to this point value based off the Win/Loss ratio. This way, people aren’t always stuck on the losing team, because eventually they’ll be placed with players who win a lot, or have a lot of good equipment.
It also means that people aren’t always stuck on the winning team, even if they’re not contributing: eventually they’ll be placed in a not very good team to “carry” them.
As an anti-exploit, if a player's losses are greater than their wins for a third consecutive win, their win/loss ratio will reset to 1:1. The same goes if they lose three times in a row when their wins are greater than their losses. This prevents a player who has been carried through far too many wins to be weighed too highly for too long on a losing team. It also prevents a decent player who has lost too many games stacked against them from being then stacked themselves on an overpowered team.

Now, of course this would apply to Random Lockdown Teams. But what about Guild Lockdown?
Since these numbers are somewhat arbitrary, and not perfectly accurate, if the developers decide to hide this system in the code, to show how Guild Lockdown Teams play out, in the lobby of the match a indicator will show up to display how the teams are stacked. If the team with the most points is not more than 10% more well equipped than the other, the indicator will say "balanced". Between 10-20% difference, the indicator will say "slight disadvantage/advantage". From 20-30% the indicator will say "moderate disadvantage/advantage" and if the highest point team happens to have 40%+ more points then a "strong disadvantage/advantage" indicator will appear.
As a simple alternative, the team point total could just simply be shown for both RLD and GLD.

TL:DR
Each player is assigned a point value of how much crap they have in their best loadout, and multiplied by their win/loss ratio. The lockdown match adds each player’s point value up, and then assigns them into teams so the point value is the same.
Players with triple max UVs will still have an edge in one on one combat. But now they all won’t be on the same team.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 01:23
#1
Quaquonfaes's picture
Quaquonfaes

Here is a better idea to balance lockdown: No UVs, No trinkets, No homemade weapons and armor.
That way it is actually about skill and not about who has the biggest GF and DA.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 01:40
#2
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
No.

If you're going to copy paste your comments here, I'm going to copy paste a reply.

People pay UVs almost strictly for LD. Do you think people have max pierce max shock max stun skolvers because electrolisks are too strong? Nope.
While this idea has good intentions and could have worked if it was applied from day 1, doing it now will only cause trouble. Those that have such things are the ones that maintain the game by buying and selling energy to accesorize their cloned sets and get UVs. It's like OOO wanted this to happen when they released punch and his triple UVs. Before LD, everyone was happy with single UVs you know...
-Juances

Anyway, your comment has nothing to do with the suggestion at hand. I've suggested a way to even matches, and you're talking about balancing lockdown loadouts. Two completely different things. There are no UVs or trinkets in TF2 and it still has unfair matches.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 03:53
#3
Theirillusion's picture
Theirillusion

Fail

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 04:09
#4
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Theirillusion

If you get points ONLY by winning, people will start bombing and capping more. How funny is it with mist bomb matches?

Not really, since the focus of a match for most people is usually on damage and kills, they think that's what wins matches. Which in a way it does.
Even on TF2, unfortunately, you don't see people throwing their lives away to stand on and defend that last cap. I mean, why does it matter if your alive if you lost? You're just gonna get crit killed during the humiliation round anyway. Might as well throw your life away now and perhaps let the game continue, even if only for a few seconds than to be the one responsible for pussying out.
Ok, I kinda went off on a tangent there.

Also I can easily make a fake loadout to trick the system into thinking I have 3 star items and 1 4 star item. Then just change in the LD lobby, so the idea of gear based balanced teams is sooooo bad.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/89245#Please_Read_Fourth_Paragraph

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 06:23
#5
Theirillusion's picture
Theirillusion

(My link was only for the last paragraph, but it doesn't matter.)

If I missed that you covered that hole, I failed and not you.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 09:00
#6
Battlegrinder's picture
Battlegrinder
Pretend I wrote something clever here

The issue I have when commenting on LD suggestions is that while most of them would improve the game, LD as is is so messed up that just about anything would do so. I very rarely see a thread that looks like it would be a good step toward alleviating that. This suggestion is one of the rare exceptions. TOO should definitely implant this, or a variation thereof.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 09:39
#7
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

LD as is is so messed up that just about anything would do so

lol so true

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 11:21
#8
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
Eh, UVs would have to be more specific

Suppose I use a Flourish with CTR low. Is that counted the same as a person with ASI MED or someone with ASI VH?

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 11:43
#9
Battlegrinder's picture
Battlegrinder
@Cradarc

From the description of the "omg triplemax" loadout, hex's system does acount for different and stronger UVs, but this simplified version doesn't show it. The Warhammer point buy system lets you upgrade equipment to be more powerful for a few more points (they call it "master-crafted" or something). At least, I think it does. I'm mostly a fan of the Warhammer 40k novels and games, not the tabletop, so I'm just running off of the bits info I've glean from 1d4chan whenever the crunch comes up.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 12:16
#10
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Cradarc

Suppose I use a Flourish with CTR low. Is that counted the same as a person with ASI MED or someone with ASI VH?

The prices marked are per level of UV. For example, a CTR VH on a 5 star weapon would cost 40 points, compared to a CTR or ASI Low, which would be 10.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 03:15
#11
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

I need an excuse to bump this...

Oh! GvG should display the values so both teams know what they're dealing with.
What? I just want to see how ridiculously high can some guild teams get.

And I'm sure they'll even pay for CTR on their toothpicks just to have it bigger and show it off >;D

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 05:28
#12
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Little-Juances

That's a very good point.

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