Spiral Knights - Hey, OOO, guns are broken

Hey, OOO, guns are broken

30 replies [Last post]

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 02:06

Zeddy

I'm gonna' bring up this elephant. I'mma do it, don't think I won't.

There is a mechanic with guns where, if you empty its 'clip', a reload animation initiates. It's a very large balancing factor that justifies alchemers having stupid amounts of more power than valiance, say.

This mechanic has been rendered entirely pointless for years, and its amazing the game made it out of beta without it being adressed. I have three suggestions.

Remove it

Give every gun infinite ammo, rebalance guns to fit this. Autoguns and Magnus wouldn't need to be changed. Alchemers would receive a nerf and Pulsars would need a substantial rate-of-fire nerf. Minor nerfs to Valiance and perhaps Antigua.

I wouldn't recommend this solution, it's kind of bland.

Have an actual ammo counter like a real game for cripes' sake

I don't think I even need to explain this. Ammo could be regained through reload animation, or it could regenerate over time. I guess this wasn't made the case in the first place because you guys were going for a very minimalistic UI where there weren't any damage numbers or health-bars, but you chucked that out of the window just as you should chuck the current, ridiculously exploitable gun-mechanic.

I think gun-switching is a cool mechanic. It allows you to increase your rate of fire and burst-damage by quite a bit, but it should come at the cost of double the reload time. With an ammo counter, this would be the case. If you do this, you could probably buff Magnus' firepower by quite a bit since the reload-skipping-exploit is probably what is preventing you from having done so already.

Talk to us

Is gun-switching an unwanted exploit, yes or no?

Is shield-cancelling an unwanted exploit, yes or no?

Why are these things still around when... No. I won't even mention it.

It's time to come out of the shadow and tell us what's up.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 03:33

Inferno-Forum

Derpuraptor Strikes Back

I'm with plan Z.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 05:41

Abelisk

Nevertheless, most guns are powerful, especially those... alchemers...

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 06:40

Doctorspacebar

It's a Concrete Jungle out there

Imagine infinite ammo Autoguns. So much dakka with the primary attack, it would be so much fun. But it doesn't make any logical sense (and that old Hand Cannon suggestion I made wouldn't work without reloading) so I guess I'd prefer the ammo counter thing. You'd still be rewarded for having multiple guns (being that you could fire all your guns' shots before having to reload) and if OOO played their cards right, you could be rewarded for waiting until you can take cover or are otherwise safe from attack to reload (like, y'know, real gunfights).

In Lockdown, Recon Gunners in particular would gain a huge advantage over Striker Gunners- a good Recon could fire, cloak away to somewhere safe, and reload, and that's if you CAN'T reload while cloaked. Strikers? They'd be spotted and mauled by rabid Skolvers.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 06:02

Waffleconecake

The thoughts of a greaver.

I say we need an actual ammo clip on guns.
Should the charge attack require a full clip of ammo to use it?
Or should you auto reload while you charge so the charge time will be longer?

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 08:24

Little-Juances

There's also the 'infinite machine gun' mechanic when the weapon has unlimited ammo, but overheats if you abuse it for too long.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 08:52

Hexzyle

Well, what if gunfire sucked energy from your shield? That way Alchemers, Blasters and Pulsars could be balanced by how much energy they consume, while combustion firearms can be left as is. This means that a skilled gunner could empty their shield with a energy firearm, and then switch to a Magnus or Autogun while their shield charges.
OMG that's totally like Tribes... I'm a genius. The shieldbar should totally just be a "generic energy" bar that Sprites and other stuff can draw from. Charge attacks too, maybe?

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 09:13

Zeddy

@Hexzyle

That could be interesting. Especially because it makes swiftstrike a real tradeoff for gunslingers.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 09:51

Writhes

Zeddy, you may think

Zeddy, you may think reloading is pointless but it is not supposed to serve a purpose beyond adding immersion to the game.

It's best not to think of reloading as something that should or should have noticeable function for players. I like to just think of it as an animation to fill a gap that may otherwise have been a simple pause in between shots.

The real question here is "Why are there pauses in between shots?". I think we can all figure out different reason why this might be.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:03

Khamsin

Reload canceling is in almost

Reload canceling is in almost every game. This game just has a unique way of implementing it.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:14

#10

Zeddy

Reload canceling with no drawbacks whatsoever? In games with unlimited ammo? I have not played this "almost every game" you have.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:56

#11

El-Odio

-1

I can not see a reason why all guns should be nerfed, when swords are the by far strongest weapons.
Nerf the Pulsar, Nerf the Needle and "fix" Alchemers (I own a pure damage one and find it to be awefully lacking, never using it despite being perfectly capable of having it bounce within one enemy - really not seeing the big deal here) but leave the rest and take care of actual unbalanced weapons.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 19:38

#12

Spookington

+ 1

We need more dakka!

... and let's face it, alchemer switching and spamming the first two shots of the polaris made the reload animation a rather inconsequential obstacle.

Also, I like the Tribes-inspired shield-ammo idea - especially it's implications fora relationship between energy-guns like the alchemers and bullet-guns (my, that sounds redundant) like the magnus and antigua line. OOO likes to be minimalistic, so I doubt that they would do something like that, but it's a pretty cool idea at that.

But I'm curious about the Antigua - while they're not the worst things out in PvP, they're already one of the most annoying with a constant stream of hit-stunning bullets.

I definitely think outright removing reload animations is rather careless.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 20:24

#13

Hexzyle

@Spookington

What I meant was just for the energy guns. Shell-based guns can keep their animation. It'll create a nice "sub-class" of guns, although it'll mean that there is no energy pierce gun which needs to be fixed. Oh! What about a railgun? Single shot, allows you to move slowly when the shot is fired, and pierces enemies? Or maybe was that the original plan for the Iron Slug was...

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 21:03

#14

Zeddy

It is not my intention to in any way reduce the power of guns, at least not when used as intended. The inclusion of ammo counters could or could not come with damage buffs for some or all guns.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 21:28

#15

Deleted-Knight

Why not just remove shield

Why not just remove shield cancel altogether?
-It would be easier to implement than messing around with gun mechanics
-It would solve the gun-switching issue
-It would make PvE harder for the people who are complaining that it's too easy (shields can't be up as quickly after attacking ==> more chance of getting hurt)
-It would make ASI actually do something other than speed up combos.
-Heck, it might even balance Lockdown by making the striker class less favorable.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 08:23

#16

Onekone

> There is a mechanic with

> There is a mechanic with guns where, if you empty its 'clip', a reload animation initiates.

It's just a "finisher"-animation. With swords, you may notice that knight almost instantly recovers from 1-, 2-slash combo, but takes a moment after doing final strike, reload-thingy is same thing with guns

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 11:41

#17

Bzzts

So what you want to happen is for guns to be forced to see an animation that will completely ruin the fluidity (if there were any) of using guns.

There are other reasons why valiance is weaker than an alchemer:
It has a 3 shot clip; and if you wish to try to switch shoot alchemers, you need 2 of them otherwise it provides minimal returns.
It has a larger hit radius
It has a longer range
And probably most importantly, it is a normal damage weapon. You can take an alchemer everywhere and do 100+ damage to every enemy.

It seems from your post that you think guns are overpowered in some way through using this switch shooting. It takes 2 alchemers and a single type of enemy weak to the alchemers for them to be anywhere near as effective as swords.

An please do explain why we would need ammo in this game. Swords should, by that logic, have durability, and bombs would need to be limited too, seeing how the simply spawn into your characters hand once you place one.

One last note: "but it should come at the cost of double the reload time." This should then, again, apply to all weapons. Although, there is no longer a long placing animation for bombs, if you place 3 in succession, you should be forced to wait and replenish you bomb supply. With swords, cancelling to use the first swing only should yield in an extended period of cooldown after the final swing.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 13:20

#18

Xtweeterx

-1 but +1 on somethine else

Blitz Needle can literally rip up anything at point-blank range on a full charge. No matter if it's construct or jelly.

Nerf, if not remove the Polaris altogether.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 14:00

#19

Zeddy

@Bzzts

"It has a 3 shot clip; and if you wish to try to switch shoot alchemers, you need 2 of them otherwise it provides minimal returns."

Yes, Valiance has a 3 shot clip while Alchemer has a 2 shot clip. This is what is supposed to balance them but isn't because switch-shooting guns gives them infinite-sized clips. I have a thread dedicated to this issue which you can find here. Perhaps you've read it?

The fact that you need two of them doesn't matter in the slightest when you can have 4 weapon slots. Can you name a situation where you need more than 3 weapons? Other than heating the fourth weapon or as a minor novelty/convenience, I mean?

It has a larger hit radius

But alchemer has two bullets per shot.

It has a longer range

Very slightly, but granted.

And probably most importantly, it is a normal damage weapon.

That's not a reason, the damage types are inherently balanced on their own. By your logic, Supernova and Neutralizer should have less base damage than Polaris and Biohazard, not more. Yet, people are still avoiding those normal guns like the plague.

And that's a disaster. Why should alchemers be anywhere near as effective as swords when they already provide:

The safety of range.
The safety of 100% free mobility while attacking.
The ability to hit multiple enemies distant from eachother through ricochets.
Numerous advantages in situations involving switches and ghost blocks.
The ability to hit enemies who can't even reach you.

An please do explain why we would need ammo in this game.

I already did. A balancing factor of guns has been entirely circumvented, and so it must be replaced by another. No such thing has happened to bombs, but do let me know if you find an exploit where you can skip charging them up.

Although, there is no longer a long placing animation for bombs, if you place 3 in succession, you should be forced to wait and replenish you bomb supply.

I agree. This mechanic, exactly as you described, used to be in the beta and it would be great if it returned.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 14:58

#20

Bzzts

The two shot clip means you can't shoot the gun by its self infinitely using shield cancelling. You can do this with a valiance because it has 3 shots is what I meant.

And to remark on your point about not needing 3 or more weapons, if you are using 2 slots for 2 alchemers in FSC (where you can actually get good damage from switch shooting) you would almost certainly want a 3rd weapon to deal with trojans/vanaduke. This is even more evident in random clockwork tunnels where you get a mixture of enemies and so bringing 2 elemental weapons/shadow and elemental will provide a much lower damage output when switching than plain using a sentenza/volcanic pepper (if say there were gremlins on the level).

The larger hit radius is actually an influencing factor in terms of utility. You can cancel attacks, knock enemies back and don't have to try so hard to hit enemies.

But I think we have got way off track here; we're arguing whether valiance is balanced or not >.<

My opinion on the subject is: it isn't inherently over powered unless there are specific situations, and so it doesn't need to be changed (this is for switch shooting) and bringing mechanics such as ammo would just further confuse players and probably repel them from trying out guns.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 18:36

#21

Waffleconecake

@Bzzts

@Bzzts
I think your argument using FCS is very flawed.
Especially the part about fighting vanaduke.
Here is why http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAcfdonaKI

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 20:13

#22

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Hey, OOO, swords are broken

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 02:36

#23

Bzzts

Most people wouldn't want to have to try to switch shoot for 5 minutes straight, and that video is of 2 experienced and very good PvE players, perhaps not the average Joe.

If you think the example is flawed, then I'll give you another. Bringing only 2 elemental alchemers on a RT run means it is extremely difficult to kill gremlins. Elemental/ shadow would provide worse results than a plain sentenza.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 05:50

#24

Zeddy

@Bzzts

We can have four weapon slots. Bringing a third weapon isn't a problem.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 06:00

#25

Bzzts

Looks like I read your post wrong, thought you said name a situation where you'd only need 2 weapons. Anyway I've said my opinion and you can probably tell it's against changing mechanics.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 16:47

#26

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

So tell me why you think guns reload.

Here is an example. I am playing Nerf wars with my friends and I load my pockets with gun ammo so I never run out. However my 6-clip gun can only hold so much. If I were to go berserk I could shoot only so many people before I have to reload. It makes sense, because my mentioned system is better than having a max capacity of six and the ammo takes a LONG time to recover from, while I could just load my Maverick with bullets that I already have and shout, "Die Vanaduke!!"

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:19

#27

Zeddy

I have no idea what your argument or stance is.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 01:43

#28

Midnight-Dj

umm, idk, why not make an

umm, idk, why not make an animation where a knight will sit down and take a rock out of his pocket and starts to resharpen his sword after he abused the sword's OP charge attacks? That way, all the weapon in the game will have its own "reload" animation. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Anyway, i was only trolling with you zeddy. But seriously, it irritates me to see non pulsar users complain over pulsar. Pulsars are a noob's best friend, if i never made my trollaris, i would probably stucked on my masterblaster, it is an aweful gun when you try to use it as your primary. Pulsar makes jk tun a breeze and packs a punch in fsc(dem slags). It is a good tool, like nitro it keeps things away and make things easy, i am not a hell bent swordie or a bomber. I want to end my oponent's life the easiest way possible.

The final mesange is, you can't impose your apporoach to game upon others zeddy. We all have our own ways of apporoachibg this game, iam sure that there are many ways which you can exploit bombs. One example is the ash of aggy+voltic tempest cambo. You can use it very effectively to dispatch a mass group of just about everything. So any idea on how can we fix that? 1 haze bomb per knight?

Flame on fellas, my work here is done.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 02:03

#29

Zeddy

"why not make an animation where a knight will sit down and take a rock out of his pocket and starts to resharpen his sword after he abused the sword's OP charge attacks"

That would be awesome, and it works well for Monster Hunter.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 07:52

#30

Hexzyle

I'd rather just see things like sword charge attacks break the shield. Actually implement a balanced defense/offense system, rather than giving us armors that boost our offense substantially while decreasing our defense only very slightly.

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Hey, OOO, guns are broken