OOO needs to update bomb Spiral Knights. I mean, look, i'll probably be playing Terraria for some long while. Why? Well earlier Terraria has released its newest 1.2 update. And it was MASSIVE. OOO needs to release this type of update as well. This is the page where Terraria's update was released. Heh, I mean, 1,000+ items and 100 new enemies? And, 100 more updates? Lol, OOO needs to look at this everytime they make a "big update".
OOO Needs to Update Bomb As Well
Lun, 10/07/2013 - 06:56
Lun, 10/07/2013 - 07:31
#2
@Juances
"To put it on perspective, have you developed a game? how big is it? Enlighten us."
Terrible argument. What were you thinking?
OP, one thing you have to acknowledge though is that while Terraria started off as an indie-game, like 000, it currently has a mid-sized development studio maintaining and producing content for it, so it can get massive expansions. 000 has been acquired by Sega, but the development team has been kept small as far as I know.
That said, 000's pace has been pretty awful. Getting new content every 6 months is way too slow, even for a small team.
Lun, 10/07/2013 - 10:35
#3
The article wrote in bold that it took Terraria 9 months to finish that update. Sprites took 6, and that brought about several large changes. Did you notice the "What's in development" thread, stickied to this forum? I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 6-9 months.
About bombs in particular... I've always had a feeling that bombs, as well as guns, were not initially meant to be a primary weapon. There are a lot of small things that make this obvious, like guns cannot break other players out of freeze and there are sometimes blocks that... well... block progress in a level, requiring multiple hits to break (which is quite annoying for bombers, unless they have something like the DR). As a result, pure bomb/gun loadouts tend to not work as well as pure sword loadouts. It'd be nice if they tweaked the sets a bit, but they do have other things on their plate.
Lun, 10/07/2013 - 08:47
#4
@Trav
Pure bombing is one thing, but bombs are so niche outside of mist bombing that they generally aren't all that viable (and by viable I mean within a couple degrees of optimal). Bombs require CTR max to function properly, and even then don't really do all that much damage to justify the risk they present. Mad bomber basically competes with wolver clone level DPS... that says to me that bombs need to charge faster and deal more damage.
Lun, 10/07/2013 - 21:53
#5
BLARGH
Bring RSS back. Nuff said. ~Z
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 01:07
#6
@Khamsin
Mad bomber basically competes with wolver clone level DPS
That doesn't make it unbalanced. Swords are all about high risk, high DPS, of course they're going to out-damage bombs. And guns. That doesn't make guns unbalanced either. Bombs are about crowd control. Get in a party with 3 other pure bombers, preferably with bombs like Nitronome, BAB, Irontech and Dark Retribution, even without anything but a demo suit and level 10 CTR and tell me how many times you get hit. Or how long monsters live after spawning. To obtain that efficiency with swords you have to plan out what monsters you're going to attack beforehand so that you don't waste damage trying to attack monsters that someone else is already pumping a Brandish charge into. Bombs allow you to deal indiscriminate damage over a large area, (no need to aim) and when this is done four times per charge cycle, nothing is left standing after a few seconds.
You can pop monsters from a relatively safe distance too, something shared with guns. Cooperative Polaris/Supernova is a thing too. Quite effective at that.
Swords are the things that need to be fixed. There's a huge gap between the most overpowered sword and the most underpowered sword.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 03:29
#7
@Hexzyle
These are some pretty iffy arguments.
First of all, swords are not "high-risk" any more than bombs are. Charge attacks easily allow you to keep everything a comfortable distance from you at all times, unless you've got negative MS. Many DA swordies don't even bother attacking normally, they just charge spam since it's high damage AND nearly completely safe.
It doesn't even need to be a projectile charge! The knock-back on the Warhammer is so high that you can easily charge, release, and retreat - repeat.
And one thing people mever account for is the fact that swords always have the choice between charging and normal attacks. Bombs do not. If you can't charge - due to status or enemies - you're screwed. While not being able to charge for a sword is just an inconvenience.
And yes, some bombs should be crowd control. Mist bombs and vortex fill that niche nicely. But the rest of the bombs?
Nitrome is the go to damage dealer, but there is almost no party that enjoys having a nitrome player. the disruptive visuals and massive knock-back range just make everything more difficult for party members. That's pretty much the opposite of crowd control.
And the shard bombs? Yikes. Leaving aside my personal burning hatred for them, they don't fit ANY role. Their damage is iffy since they have a max hit counter. And the wild and pretty much unpredictable knock-back makes them an absolute nightmare for party members.
The purely knock-back based BAB and Irontech end up being useless as well since OOO tried to make them damage bombs, and the resulting charge speed, ms, and fuse speed makes them rather unusable for crowd control.
The "Get in a party with 3 other pure bombers" part is pretty much a counter argument in itself. A weapon should not need four dedicated members to be useful. That's like saying "well, ya clubs are blunt, but when you get a group of them they can be useful!" when you're in a sword fight.
And unless you're running into the middle of a crowd of monsters to place your bomb in a position where it will actually be useful (read: high-risk), monsters are going to live a long healthy life. And you have to do that exact same kind of thinking with bombs. If I place a BTB and then another player (usually always a swordie, but lets use a bomber for ease) blasts them out of my radius, that bomb just became useless. same with DR. Same with shard bombs. Actually same, and more so, with every bomb. Since unlike swords, you can't readjust your actions midway. Once you've set a bomb, it's set. You can't pick it up and say, "oh well you moved and aggroed that entire pack of wolvers, let me just drop this over here instead." A sword though? You're about to release a charge and someone blasts them away? Well you just hold on, move a bit, and let it rip over there.
I will give you the large area and lack of aim. That is a bonus bombers get. But other than the BTB and DR, none of the damage bombs actually allow you to repeatedly hit enemies. They all have knock-back.
Again, I give you the safe distance, but only for certain bombs. Shard bombs, vortex bombs, and the DR don't give you any kind of safe distance. Using those effectively places you just as close, if not closer, than charged swords. And while I could use a nitrome from a distance - it would work - it isn't nearly as efficient as a sword - or even a gun. The damage is going to be pretty slow, and the knock-back means I'm going to have to constantly readjust my placement, hoping I don't knock them far enough back that they decide to ignore me for another party member, or if solo, ignore me entirely.
Though I completely agree with you on swords, there's a very distinct disparity between good swords and bad swords which should be addressed.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 04:38
#8
Bombs are safe because they cover a large are and have a lot of fuse time. This means that when you inflict damage upon a monster with a shard bomb, you can be further away from them than if you were using even the longest-range of handguns.
Anything is risky if you insist on using it in the middle of enemy groups.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 04:50
#9
@Netknight
A weapon should not need four dedicated members to be useful
Bombs are useful without four dedicated members. As a support role. If you want to use a weapon for a more specialised role, like bombs for high DPS, then you should get a specialised party to do so.
And unless you're running into the middle of a crowd of monsters to place your bomb in a position where it will actually be useful
But you don't need to stand in the centre of a crowd. Bomb radius are large enough that you can easily bomb crowds from a distance, or lure them onto bombs if they're fast moving.
Shard bombs, vortex bombs, and the DR don't give you any kind of safe distance. Using those effectively places you just as close, if not closer, than charged swords
Bombs are less riskier than sword/gun charge attacks because bombs don't require recovery. They are essentially short-medium range guns. You can prance around right next to monsters and they can't hit you because you're constantly moving.
This is a technique I picked up from Alchemer gunning enemies, especially lumbers. You just fire the basic shot at point blank range and circle the enemy so they can't hit you. It's really easy to do now that wolvers, retrodes and zombies no longer track with melee, although you do have to be cautious when using it around overtimers since they can quickly adjust their aim when using their melee attack, and mecha knights since they move quite quickly and dropping a bomb will put you within range of their non-telegraphed attacks.
Bombs like Ash of Agni and Voltaic Tempest also do not deal knockback, and are very deadly against the right enemies. Bombs are also very useful in Shadow Lairs, where knockback isn't a problem due to the cramped space.
hoping I don't knock them far enough back that they decide to ignore me for another party member
That's not how aggro works in Spiral Knights.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 05:19
#10
@Hex
"Bombs like Ash of Agni and Voltaic Tempest also do not deal knockback, and are very deadly against the right enemies"
Talking out of your a**. Neither of those bombs has any sort of DPS to speak of. Getting reasonable amount of DPS out of bombs in more risky than getting good DPS out of swords. Any coordination to protect your buddies you could do with bombs, you could do with swords, WITHOUT gimping out your DPS. Placing bombs in a way to only hit the enemy at the edge of your radius gimps out your DPS... you need to get hordes of enemies within bomb blasts to get them to function effectively.
Also, I lol'd at the idea that swords need a revamp before bombs. That rates up there among the stupidest comments I've heard. Only the cutter line and the unfinished winmillion line have been historically underused. Heavy swords, medium swords, rapiers, they all have their place and get usage.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 06:18
#11
Neither of those bombs has any sort of DPS to speak of
30 damage shock ticks twice per second on 6-8 simultaneous enemies and an additional 266 on 2-4 enemies per 3-4 second charge cycle would like to have a talk with you.
Placing bombs in a way to only hit the enemy at the edge of your radius gimps out your DPS
I only suggested this lame solution for those too inexperienced to bomb close-range. Are you one of those?
I lol'd at the idea that swords need a revamp before bombs
more risky than getting good DPS out of swords
Which swords are you using to get this "good DPS"? Winmillion? DVS/WHB? Leviathan Blade? Cold Iron Vanquisher? Rigadoon/Flamberge (and even Flourish/BTB)? Triglav/Sudaruska regular attacks? CAUTERY SWORD?
I think we all know which two and a half sword lines you're talking about when you say "good DPS". 39% of all swords is not an accurate representation of "good overall sword balance". By disagreeing with a sword revamp over a bomb revamp, you're indirectly stating that abs(swordBalance-gunBalance) < abs(bombBalance-gunBalance) == true assuming the more balanced a class of weapons is, the higher the associated variable.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 06:49
#12
@Hex
Every non-normal type sword is easily an A or B tier weapon. If you want to whine about normal damage type, I'm cool with that, since I agree that normal damage types don't really have a good use.
The problem with bombs is that if you remove neutral bombs (neutral damage), mist (not DPS bombs), and shards (have terrible DS), you basically don't have anything left. DR and Snarby... you've got two bombs. Do you see the problem here?
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 06:53
#13
What's the half a sword line?
What's the half a sword line? I know that the two are brandish & sealed sword, but seriously...
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 07:04
#14
@Arkate
"What's the half a sword line? I know that the two are brandish & sealed sword, but seriously..."
He's probably referencing rapiers.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 07:30
#15
Why am I the only person here that uses/remembers Electron Vortex?
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 07:48
#16
The main bomber update I'd
The main bomber update I'd like to see is buffing 2-4 star bombs. Increase radius to close to 5 star, decrease damage, decrease overall charge time to be closer to 5 star. The main advancement between the upgrades should primarily be damage and smaller gaps between charge time reduction.
This is because like others have said, bombing is ideal for crowd control, but the level of crowd control you can do in T2 bombs is laughable.
I liked bombs early on and switched out of them in T2. Unusable, especially if I intended to solo, and unnecessarily difficult when my objective in T2 was "get enough money to advance to T3." Being a sword user in T2 is much more rewarding, both in terms of damage, efficiency, and ease of use.
All the fun quirky stuff with interesting-but-not-popular-weapons can stay the same for T3. But my only plea is to not make T2 bombers feel so useless.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 07:58
#17
@Momo
Agreed. Even if Tier 3 bombs are arguably viable, lower tier bombs are a joke. Way back when, bombs could be planted without being charged, so the small radius of lower tier bombs wasn't a big deal. In the current system however, that doesn't really work. I'm definitely behind lower tier bombs getting increased radius.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 08:48
#18
do you know that ooo has the resources to do this?
Or are you just assuming.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 10:05
#19
@Khamsin
The problem with bombs is that if you remove neutral bombs (neutral damage), mist (not DPS bombs), and shards (have terrible DS), you basically don't have anything left. DR and Snarby... you've got two bombs. Do you see the problem here?
I do agree that we need more when it comes to variation in bombs. However, the ones we currently have are reasonably balanced (compared to the laughable Gun and Sword balance) which is what I thought you were arguing.
@Arkate
What's the half a sword line? I know that the two are brandish & sealed sword, but seriously...
WRH. Since it's similar to Avenger and isn't really a weapon "line" per se.
@Momofuku
This is because like others have said, bombing is ideal for crowd control, but the level of crowd control you can do in T2 bombs is laughable.
Lower star rating bombs need to be buffed, but an increase in radius I don't think would work in the case of mist bombs. Since status damage scales up differently to weapon damage (linearly instead of exponentially) 2 and 3 star mist bombs are already 50-70% as powerful as their 5 star equivalents:
At depth 23:
SHOCK
★★☆☆☆ : 15 Damager per tick
★★★★★ : 30 Damage per tick
FREEZE
★★★☆☆ : 115 Minor thaw damage
★★★★★ : 196 Minor thaw damage
FIRE
★★★☆☆ : 39 Moderate damage per tick (35 weak but I don't have records for 5* weak)
★★★★★ : 66 Moderate damage per tick
I believe poison works similarly, and Stun is pretty much always the same duration.
What if lower tier bombs had faster fuse times? Doesn't the Irontech and Irontech Destroyer already do this?
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 10:16
#20
@Hex
"I do agree that we need more when it comes to variation in bombs. However, the ones we currently have are reasonably balanced (compared to the laughable Gun and Sword balance) which is what I thought you were arguing."
Against each other? Balanced generally, yes (aside from DR and Snarby which are actually mildly good, and therefore OP DPS bombs). Against other classes of weapons, they are unbalanced.
As far as mist bombs, I agree that the radius can't be equivalent to their 5* variants since the main reason to upgrade is the radius increase, but for DPS bombs, I think the radius could be increased. Additionally, the growth of the radius of haze bombs could be more gradual.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 11:14
#21
The radius of T1 and T2 bombs are fine. What makes T2 bombing so much harder than T3 bombing is the enormous gap in charge time reduction for the armour.
CTR is what needs a rework. Bombs without CTR are infinitely more painful to use than swords or guns without ASI or damage bonus.
T1 bombs are fine because of the Cold Snap and Firecracker that you get for free with CTR med.
Mar, 10/08/2013 - 18:01
#22
*Facepalm*
Notice how I said "OOO needs to update bomb as well" not "OOO needs to update bomb(s) as well". Update bombing is basically when a company drops a huge ridiculously large update that will basically double of what the game already is.
I suppose discussing "bombs" is viable here.
Mié, 10/09/2013 - 04:22
#23
The papaya frowns........
[My god, I've forgotten how long some posts can be on the forums XD Which isn't surprising...since I haven't been forum-ing for over a month :P]
Frankly, I agree with @Zeddy above me :P. I personally think the BOOM [explosion] radius of bombs are fine, the thing that really gets into my roots is the amount of time it takes to charge up a T2 bomb. It's stupidly painful to charge up a bomb, whilst dodging gun puppy bullets, wolvers, chairs, bookshelves, ta-How the fudge do Devilites throw this stuf-...
Yeah, you get the point :P
To put it on perspective, have you developed a game? how big is it? Enlighten us.
One does what one can do. Yes, there will always be bigger games out there.