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Pulsar line scaling tweak

28 replies [Last post]
Sat, 11/09/2013 - 16:10
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

Now, yes, as we are all aware, Polaris is a gun that is widely despised in PVP. This isn't what I'm getting at. Now that that's out of the way...

One of the things that bug me about the shock pulsar line is how the gun is already innately annoying at 3*. A Good Chance for Moderate Shock that doesn't scale as you upgrade it. The only thing that scales up as you upgrade is the damage values, and the fancy graphic. I could just as easily keep my precious Kilowatt as 3* and be just as annoying. What I propose is actual scaling, making the gun feel more powerful as you upgrade it, outside of the raw damage numbers. You know. Like, the Alchemers, the Brandishes, and Sealed Swords?

3*, Kilowatt Pulsar; Slight chance of causing Minor Shock. Bullets have to travel longer before expanding and dealing its full damage, making it innately weaker than its current 5* upgrade.

4*, Gigawatt Pulsar; Good chance of causing Minor Shock. Bullets expand much sooner. Chance of inflicting shock increased. Still not as powerful as the 5*, but an improvement over the 3*.

5*, Polaris; Good chance of causing Moderate Shock. I honestly have no idea how to balance this piece of garbage without getting into a perpetual whine-fest. Reduce the clip, maybe? I really have no problem personally with keeping it how it is, but I will not deny the fact that many people cry for nerfs for days on end.

And for Vogs' sake, fix the knockback mechanics already.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 17:15
#1
Rezzler's picture
Rezzler
The other thing that scales

The other thing that scales is the radius of the explosion. Pretty key, no?

But i think its fine. The damage scales well. The shock should stay the same (like alchemers). And, just as alchemers scale with more bouncyness, polaris scales with bigger explosions. Not to mention better damage and way cooler looks that previous versions.

Lower clip, maybe. Probably not.

Lower dmg, wouldnt be necessary.

Reducing speed might be the way to go? And having that increase? Idk, just throwing out my crap ideas as usual.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 17:20
#2
Bitsbee's picture
Bitsbee

I'd like the Shock to be Minor & make the Knockback exclusive only to the Supernova Line.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 19:27
#3
Rezzler's picture
Rezzler
^YES

^YES

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 04:14
#4
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

dear lord no. that would defeat the whole purpose of that gun. reduce the shock chance and damage and it will be fine.
besides, what skolver clones hate is the shock chance, not the duration.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 06:00
#5
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

The whole purpose of the gun? The purpose of the gun is to do small damage at short range, large damage at long range. It even says so in the description. Nowhere is it said in stone that "The purpose of this gun is to cause so much knockback, monsters nor players will be able to get anywhere near you while you're firing this".

The knockback is uncalled for, buggy and way too powerful: It's faster acting and comes in higher quantities than the nitronome, not to mention less predictable and unlike any other knockback-inducing weapon, is not reduced by shields and invulnerability. You can fling spawning enemies, Trojans, Darkfangs and Mecha Knights across the room regardless of what they're doing or which direction they're facing, while the Big Angry Bomb and the Troika/Sealed sword do jack.

Shock is pretty nasty on its own, that's why Storm Driver, Voltedge, and especially Voltaic Tempest are quite effective. But those three weapons don't consistantly block spasming people from getting any closer than 8 tiles to the firer.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 06:20
#6
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

if you eliminate knockback, and the rest stays the same, about 90% of the guys who use it will throw it out of the window, and only spammers will stay. knockback is what gives the gun a purpose. without knockback I may as well get an alchemer, it would be way, way better. I agree that knockback shouldn't send shielded enemies flying only on one weapon (either all or nothing, you decide), but not removing it completely. cause if it barely stops a lumber coming my way, I will never advance.
wait a sec... no, it's the other way round. it will become more OP than it is now cause without knockback you can stack hits upon hits while standing still. shock makes everything worse.
so it need a little knockback nerf so that it doesn't send you flying, a damage nerf cause hit staking shouldn't be instadeath, and some tweks to shock cause hit staking. I was pretty close.

also edit: you mean you don't use pulsar line for crowd control but because it hits hard at high distances? it would have been coded differently if it was just that; an escalating gun, with damage increase (and not AoE increase) over duration and the bullet speed slightly faster than what we have, or faster at high distances: that is what pulsar should be if the purpose was just high range=high damage. now it's not. you can hit something at a little more that half the range and it deals the same damage as the end range.
btw, when I crafted pulsar, I was dissapointed that it wasn't like I described up there.
edit n°: 3

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 06:57
#7
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

about 90% of the guys who use it will throw it out of the window

Why wouldn't people who crafted a weapon purely because it's overpowered throw it away because it's no longer overpowered?

without knockback I may as well get an alchemer, it would be way, way better

Actually it wouldn't.

Firstly, without knockback, your massive blasts can hit the same bunch of targets over and over again. It would essentially be a difficulty increase for using the weapon (since monsters can actually approach you now while you're firing it) but it would also be a damage buff (since you can consistently hit targets without knocking them flying out of range of you or your teammates)

Secondly, Polaris does the same amount of damage than Storm Driver with unexpanded shots, but 20% more with expanded ones. The splash damage means that you're always hitting more than one target, regardless of where you aim, while with Storm Driver you need to jam shots inbetween mobs so that they collide with both simultaneously.

Thirdly, Polaris has three rounds, Storm Driver only two, meaning less time needed to reload. And don't say "what about alch-switching" because you can do the same thing with two Pulsars. And before you say "well who has more than one pulsar?", remember the gun update.

cause if it barely stops a lumber coming my way, I will never advance.

Guns aren't supposed to stop lumbers in their tracks. That's what the freeze, shock, and stun statuses are for, as are heavy weapons that actually incur a penalty for using, like Troika/Sealed, Big Angry Bomb, and Vortex.

a damage nerf cause hit staking shouldn't be instadeath

Being overpowered damage-wise isn't really a big deal, we still have Blitz and Acheron (or just brandishes in general) still being a thorn in our side. At least Polaris will be overpowered in a sensible way, not in a way that screws over teammates, monsters, and PvP opponents alike. You'll actually be able to advance on a bunch of Polaris-spamming players, instead of just having to find another way completely in the case of choke points. (even haze bombs aren't that lethal. Well, it's debatable, but Haze bombs take time to set up, and interuption is a pain for bombing)

Compare with TF2. What if instead of doing triple damage, critical hits knocked players flying backwards?

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 07:17
#8
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

yay, argument!
ok, everybody hate pulsar spammers. I do, you do, they do, everybody does. you want to eliminate knockback, but with the damage output it has it would be worse than before. that "90%" statement I said, forget about it.
fact is, I see knockback as a vital part of the gun. eliminating pulsar knockback would just get us another gun entierly. instead of a nerf, is more like a total re-do, and it's too much for me. I would gladly take out pulsar entierly to substitute it with another gun that does what it says, all right, but re-doing is just too much. maybe it would knock it down to catalyzer level of hypstery, cause it will be difficult to use.
wait a sec... do it already! it's the good thing to do!
(please leave Supernova as it is though, or give us another knockback gun cause, well, we dont have any without those. don't say Valiance, valiance is not crowd control.)

EDIT: and I don't play TF2 so I don't know what you are talking about, but with high rate of fire guns it would be awesome to watch.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 07:47
#9
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

Knockback is a credible form of crowd control. Valiance is a perfect example of reasonable knockback.

Pulsar lines have knockback that make less sense than all of the game's lore combined.

Fixing the knockback alone would make me happy.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 07:55
#10
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

probem of valiance is that it doesn't control crowds. in one vs one, valiance can keep anything at bay. against groups, not so much.
heck, a rocket launcher-like gun would be great. single shot clip and high knockback, that's what we need!
don't redo pulsar that way though; resizing the shot clip would just make it worthless with the mechanincs it has. if we agree in eliminating knockback (if I think what I have said one hour ago...) it's just not needed. if you resize the clip, make another gun entierly.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 08:22
#11
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
How do I what do?

I'm agreeing with removing the knock back here or reducing it to that of the valiance.
Removing the knock back won't really break the pulsar, it just increases the difficulty of use. You already have a very strong CC on that weapon known as shock. If you really won't use it with how much power it has just because it no longer has knock back I feel you should look at what you value in a weapon because it seems like you only want to use brokenly strong ones.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 09:06
#12
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

"or give us another knockback gun cause, well, we dont have any without those. don't say Valiance, valiance is not crowd control.)"

Volcanic Pepperbox.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 09:29
#13
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

^

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 10:24
#14
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

The knockback is merely one of the few problems I have. Sure, I never took explosion radius into account, but it would still make sense that the gun's status starts weak, and grows stronger to what it is. At the very least, it makes sense to me.

Removing the knockback of Polaris would be a quick fix, and much easier to do than actually fixing the mechanics of knockbacks.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 10:26
#15
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
the thing about removing knockback though

Is that it barely does anything for PvP, because of how knights react when they're hit. You wouldn't be sent flying across the screen, but you'd still be stopped in your tracks. +.5

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 12:08
#16
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

didn't think of that, thanks zeddy. nerf it already!
klipik, not necesarly. I was reluctant too until I realized that on hit the pulsar could emit an energy field instead of exploding, so that we can actually remove the knockback so that it has the knockback of a proto gun and it doesn't stop you. besides, without all the knockback, invinciframes will shield you from the damage while you striker dash to the gunner with your DA/GF/FF/WRH.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 15:03
#17
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Pretty amusing to suggest any

Pretty amusing to suggest any nerfs to Polaris with the gunner update on horizon and with the fact that OOO has shown that they try to at least rebalance the damage of the weapons with inflicting statuses versus those that don't (see the much undeserved hate that acheron gets): read it as Polaris expanded shots will more than likely do the damage of the storm drivers shots with the gunner update.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 15:23
#18
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

I don't even care about nerfing Polaris. If anything, I want the 4* and 3* to be nerfed so it feels like you're working up to--

Oh, forget it. Balance is a fool's master.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 15:44
#19
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
How do I what do?

Balance is not the master of a fool, balance is the master of a fairer person. If one fights unfairly and unbalanced then they should not fight no mater if they are the one with the balance in there favor or not, for the battle was lost before it began.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 16:10
#20
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Paweu

The Acheron is, at the moment, pretty well-balanced against the other Brandishes.

That's the problem. The Brandish line and Sealeds needed a rebalance. Buffing anything at all regarding it was the wrong way to go.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 16:23
#21
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Brandishes as a whole don't

Brandishes as a whole don't need much change in my opinion, only their charge attack does. That's what gets on everyone's nerve and unarguably needs some tweaking. Normal attacks if we are to compare sealed lines vs brandish lines then it's the balanced wide, slow swing (that can apply a status if we were to specify gran faust) vs fast, concentrated slashes (on which the charge attacks only applies the statuses).

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 16:36
#22
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Brandishes and Sealeds are also pretty nice and balanced against eachother.

What about Combuster vs Leviathan, are those balanced?

Consider damage at max bonus and damage for the third hit.

Now what about Acheron vs Leviathan? Hell, what about Acheron vs Final Flourish against beasts?

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 17:17
#23
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Normal damage weapons are

Normal damage weapons are something that ignores the whole concept of rock, paper & scissors in this game and with the fact that you can only change your gear at arsenal stations which are only located at start of the level if you pick up a normal damage weapon you accept the fact that you are picking overall lower damage for the fact that you will be dealing the same damage to everything. When I was starting to hunt danger rooms ages ago and had been using 2 slots only, I was pretty much always carrying a Leviathan. But if ever one desires, they could expand their weapon slots and specialise. You can't really expect normal damage weapons to out-class the specialised weapons even on neutral enemies. Though, much of those specific pairings contributes from Brandishes being split specialised/normal which I totally forgot about so I guess that would also need making them but after they'd be, let's say, made specialised damage only they'd be another horror weapon in Lockdown. Also, yes, FF is outdone by Acheron since the buff but FF does have the massive wide first swing (and slightly bigger knockback) which is the horror of plenty of Lockdown players since always. You have to have that also in mind. You wouldn't want a FF buff now would you? All in all, I wouldn't mind changes but I also don't mind (aside of the brandishes charge) the current state of things.

Oh, and, your link doesn't work, redirects me to this page so had to test stuff with my toys in game.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 17:52
#24
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Link works for me, but the full link looks like so:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Sword_Damage_(Depth_24)

I guess copy and paste it?

I'm not expecting Levi to outclass Acheron against neutrals, but I am expecting them to be equal, or at least reasonably balanced. Let me jump straight to this line:

"I totally forgot about so I guess that would also need making them but after they'd be, let's say, made specialised damage only they'd be another horror weapon in Lockdown."

I can assure you that making Brandishes pure damage would be nothing but the most severe and necessary nerfs for them in terms of Lockdown. Let me bring up some numbers. I'm good at that.

Google doc link. Numbers in black have been verified not only by me, but by people who have studied Lockdown damage numbers for a very long time before I started caring.

Leviathan pure damage, 1st swing: 335
Leviathan pure damage, 3rd swing: 385
Leviathan pure damage, charge: 502

Combuster pure damage, 1st swing: 492
Combuster pure damage, 3rd swing: 574
Combuster pure damage, charge: 774

Not even bringing Acheron into this. Just bear in mind that however bad Combuster seems, Acheron is worse. These are the raw damage numbers of the weapons. That is to say, if you have no damage bonus and hit someone deathmarked in Lockdown, this is the amount of damage you'll inflict. 1 pip = 40 hit points. A striker without heart pendants, on average, has 18 pips, 720 health. Let's get into defence.

Every knight in Lockdown has at least 100 defence against everything. Vog has 142 normal defence, 125 elemental.

Levi vs no armour: 225, 285, 402
Combuster vs no armour: 292, 374, 574
Combuster vs Vog Cub: 225, 307, 507

As you can see, Combuster against a person who has armour specifically defensive against Combuster takes more damage than Levi against someone who has no defence against Levi at all.

But we haven't even began to jump into this rabbit hole. Let's apply max damage bonus.

Levi vs no armour: 315, 378, 522
Combuster vs no armour: 409, 511, 759
Combuster vs Vog Cub: 342, 444, 692
Combuster vs Arcane Salamander, the most defence you can achieve vs Combuster without UVs:
325, 427, 675

Just for lols:
Levi vs deathmark: 415, 478, 622
Combuster vs deathmark: 609, 711, 959

So I propose to make Combuster a pure-damage Levi, and you can tell me whether or not you think that would make it a monster in Lockdown rather than making it stop being a monster in Lockdown.

And all of this isn't even, you know, accounting for the fact that Combuster can set things on fire and hit stuff halfway across the screen. Aren't status weapons supposed to be wearker than non-status weapons?

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 18:12
#25
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Generally speaking I was

Generally speaking I was talking about PvE but I see now, I had no idea that this is how stuff works in Lockdown, it's hard to test it like that without coordinating testing with two guilds/creating two guilds. In that case I'd be more than happy to see brandishes made into pure specialised damage weapons. And again, for the third time already, yes, the charge attacks on brandishes needs tweaking but I don't agree on making normal damage weapons (at least not Leviathan and who knows, Iron Slug might be getting that promised buff with gunner update) any better, they aren't as good as you would want them to be but as they are they fullfill their role at ignoring the rock, paper & scissors quite well.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 18:18
#26
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
@Thunder

You can get stopped in your tracks by an Antigua. Nothing short of making Pulsars fire mini haze bombs is going to get rid of that.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 18:44
#27
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I don't think Levi needs a buff, it's just Brandish and Sealeds that need a nerf.

Mon, 11/11/2013 - 07:10
#28
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

they really do have that power? why aren't they used will in LD? oh right. used well and LD come up with only the 5% of the gamers, so I missed it.
well then, reduce the fire rate. not much, but enough to make you go through with some skill.

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