Forums › English Language Forums › General › Suggestions

Recherche

Mechanics change for guns, Battle Sprites, and sprinting too.

9 Réponses [Dernière contribution]
lun, 11/11/2013 - 06:45
Portrait de Hexzyle
Hexzyle

So there have been complaints about the reload exploitations of handguns, the shared cooldown for Battle Sprites, and a lot of people have suggested a sprinting option for those stretches of Clockworks that you've cleared and have to walk back on. I'd realised that Spiral Knights and Lunar Knights both have quite a lot of similarities: They both implement energy guns, swords, and spaceships in the same era, and they're both hack & slash games with a high dependency on using the block ability to avoid damage.
In Lunar Knights, you have a bunch of Terrenials (read: little floating embodiements of the elements that follow you around and shout out their names and catchprhases whenever you switch them) that you can bring out to imbue your attacks with their associated element. You also have an energy meter that drains when you use an element. The two playable characters, Lucian and Aaron, use swords and guns repectively. Lucian's swords can be used without imbued elements, but Aaron's guns won't fire unless he has enough energy to do so. Running and dashing also use the energy meter.

So, why doesn't Spiral Knights have something like this? Using the same energy bar, Battle Sprites, Handguns, and dashing could draw from the same energy pool. Additionally, the ability to sprint could also be added and also draws from this.

Of course some foundations would need to be set: (but feel free to debate these)

  1. Unlike the shield bar which stops recharging directly after taking damage, the energy bar would constantly recharge.
  2. To fill from 0% to 100%, the bar would require 10 seconds of non-use.
  3. Battle Sprite abilities would still have their cooldowns, but they would be separated.
  4. Battle Sprite abilities would consume a ratio of the bar equal to the ratio of the cooldown timers. This means that using all three abilities in succession would drain your energy from 100% to 0%.
  5. Only handguns that use energy would have this applied. This includes Blaster Series, Alchemer Series, Pulsar Series, Catalyzer Series.
  6. Firing a clip's worth of bullets from an energy-based handgun consumes 20% of the bar. Therefore, firing one alchemer shot (10%) per second will cause the energy bar to drain at the same rate it fills. (I really need help balancing this, needs to have enough power for a decent burst fire, but not too much that a player can pull off heavy damage with an empty energy bar)
  7. Dash will pull a hefty 50% off the energy bar. This means that you can dash once every 5 seconds, or twice in a row if you have a full energy bar, but you won't be able to sprint or fire energy weapons (does this make Antigua series overpowered?)
  8. Players can sprint. While sprinting they gain a 20% speed boost (multiplicative with MSI) but cannot attack, and their energy bar drains at the same rate it fills. (This means you can sprint for 10 second straight if you have a 100% energy bar) When the player stops sprinting, they stagger like they would have had they used the second swing of a Troika, and therefore cannot shield, attack, nor move.
  9. Charge attacks (of any weapon) do not draw from the energy bar. The charge attacks are balanced by not being able to attack nor shield, and the movement penalty incurred. (if certain charge attacks are not balanced, then that's the individual weapon's fault)
lun, 11/11/2013 - 09:08
#1
Portrait de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
How do I what do? /watch?v=ccoHl0gqoGU

Thoughts on sprinting: I have a different idea. How about the players automatic sprint after 5 seconds of walking in the same direction and not taking damage, shielding, attacking, or stopping. This starts up the sprinting and doesn't cost anything but if you attack, stop, or shield you get a penalty:

If you stop walking you simply trip up a bit similar to a devilite's stagger. This doesn't force you to stop moving but will reduce your speed a good amount.

Trying to using a weapon causes you to stagger similar to shooting a magnus and no attack will happen.

Shielding consumes two inches of your shield bar, regardless of what your current shield health is. This odd amount is because I don't know the precise damage stats for shield health as it is rather vague. This is done to not make people using stronger, tankier shields feel like they are getting punished harder then those with weaker shield.

The reasoning behind this is the people who complain about said long walks just want to be able to get from point A to battle ground B sooner. Penalizing to much will just lead to complaining and won't really fix the issue of these long walks. This way the cost for sprinting is more minor and doesn't feel like it is going to get you killed in a fight later for doing it now.

Thoughts on energy: I like it. I am glad that charge attacks don't consume energy as that would make the catalyzer weapons even less usable. This would come up eventually soo... would there be special armor for increasing energy replenishment? Could be a silly pokemon trainer looking armor and be called "Sprite master set".

lun, 11/11/2013 - 09:58
#2
Portrait de Hexzyle
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

This starts up the sprinting and doesn't cost anything but if you attack, stop, or shield you get a penalty:

What if the player always wants to be cautious? :O Automatically jumping into sprinting mode would be a little frustrating, especially if enemies were exactly five seconds of walking away.

Shielding consumes two inches of your shield bar, regardless of what your current shield health is.

Shield bash always drains 50% of your shield health.

I guess one or two of the gunslinger sets could have increased energy recharge rates. Other classes wouldn't need it so much because their primary weapons don't depend on it.

lun, 11/11/2013 - 14:08
#3
Portrait de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
How do I what do? /watch?v=AGEFw3wXcyw

If they always want to be cautious then they shouldn't run a straight line, just sway a bit as it only starts after five seconds of running in a constant direction, after sprinting starts you can turn.
I dislike that shield bash always uses half of it, if you did more damage, farther charge, or actually ignored damage during it I would say other wise but you don't.

lun, 11/11/2013 - 22:35
#4
Portrait de Masterreeve
Masterreeve
Energy Bar

The idea of an energy bar is ok, but i don't know about applying it to all these different things. Having only some of the guns use energy would make the non-energy weapons a lot more over used, especially antigua lines and blitz lines. plus, the earlier stages of the autogun would use energy (i assume) so early players would have to adjust whenever they upgrade their weapons. Also, applying the bar to guns only in a game where guns originaly had infinite ammo would make people feel like it was a gun nerf and force them to use swords, which have no penalties. Another point is that having ASI on your weapon would make the bar decrease faster without increasing the recharge rate, effectively cutting damage output and lowering the value of ASI on guns. Most guns (besides the Blitz) already deal considerably lower damage compared to swords and this would just increase the distance in power.

From what i can remember (not sure, haven't played the game in a few days) the cooldown for dashing is 7 seconds, so this energy bar would allow us to dash more often, especially since we can dash twice in a row. Dashing in and of itself already makes the game considerably a lot easier, so increasing the use rate wouldn't be the best idea.

Your sprinting idea is spot on, i can't find any real problems with it.

i would suggest having the energy bar apply to only Battle Sprites, dashing and sprinting, and charge attacks (on all weapons). This way gun users are't penalized for being pure gunners and won't get into situations in mid battle where they cannot attack for a short duration. It also lowers the use rate of charge attacks, as i find that most dungeons in the game can be easily completed by simply spamming a charge attack. Charge attacks would deplete the bar by 10% upon the release of the attack. You are allowed to start a charge even if the bar is not full enough to release it, but releasing a charge with under 10% would cause the attack to misfire.

Dashing still takes 50% of the bar, but possibly require a 3 second cooldown before you are allowed to dash again. Sprinting is left as is.

Sprite bar depletion is left as is, given i am correct in the assumption that not every sprite spell takes 33%, and instead takes a percent in relation to the cooldown. I.E a firebolt with 18 second cooldown takes 18%, flame barrier with 26 second cooldown takes 26%, and a firestorm with 56 second cooldown takes 56% (these numbers are in no way related to actual sprite cooldown times, i just pushed the total collective time up to 100 seconds for easier math upon myself)

mar, 11/12/2013 - 14:23
#5
Portrait de Leekcoco
Leekcoco

In terms of the gun mechanics, it sounds pretty similar how switch-attacking will drain your striker boost or recon cloak. I'm fine with that as a handicap for switch-shooting in PvE as it just means you need to manage your resources more carefully. Rather than punishing people for a technique that requires some skill it only does so for mindless button-mashing.

mer, 11/13/2013 - 02:12
#6
Portrait de Hexzyle
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

@Waffleconecake
If they always want to be cautious then they shouldn't run a straight line, just sway a bit as it only starts after five seconds of running in a constant direction

Then I bring up the alternate: what if you wanted to cover a stretch with sprinting that would take 5 seconds to cross while walking? With your idea of automated sprinting, you wouldn't be able to, since you need to wait a full 5 seconds for sprinting to kick in.

@Masterreeve
applying the bar to guns only in a game where guns originaly had infinite ammo would make people feel like it was a gun nerf and force them to use swords, which have no penalties.

Removing the reload animation from guns only in a game where using a combo attack inflicts the player with a recovery period (where they cannot attack, shield, or even move in most cases) makes people feel like it was a gun buff and force (lol?) them to use guns, which have no recovery.

The recharge rate is fast enough that you can squeeze off a gun shot fairly frequently, but at a somewhat lower DPS, and sacrificing the ability to dash or use Sprite Abilities. This would only fully affect Pure Energy-Slingers: players who only use Pulsars, Catalyzers, Blasters and Alchemers. Take a Magnus, Autogun, Antigua (if you're a pure Gunslinger) or a Gun/Bomb and switch to it when your energy is low, instead of just mashing the attack button with the one weapon (looking at you, Alchemer-Switchers and Polaris Noobs)

Another point is that having ASI on your weapon would make the bar decrease faster without increasing the recharge rate

Ah, that is a good point. However, ASI would still give the guns a higher burst damage. (You'd chew up your bar quicker, but you'd deal higher DPS than someone without ASI for those few seconds) ASI is also safer anyway, your animations finish quicker (both regular shots and charge shots) so you can move normally shortly after firing the weapon. Also, ASI isn't balanced with family bonuses anyway. ASI works all the time while family bonuses only 16% of (for normal damage guns, 25-50% for specialized damage guns)

won't get into situations in mid battle where they cannot attack for a short duration

See my above point on Pure Energy-Slingers. The recharge rate is fast enough that a player can continue shooting constantly, albeit at a less-than-optimal rate.
The basic idea is to make a few weapons a bit more powerful than the rest, but to keep them on a leash so that players can't crutch solely on them.

Charge attacks would deplete the bar by 10% upon the release of the attack

This seems fine, that's 1 second of bar recharge, anyway. Although it might cripple a gun like the Catalyzer. If the Catalyzer were to be buffed substantially, I'd have no problem with this.

Dashing still takes 50% of the bar, but possibly require a 3 second cooldown before you are allowed to dash again.

I like the concept of a double-dash, but I don't know how this would work when combined with Sprite Ability Drain: non Energy-Slingers may have enough energy to be constantly dashing, even while using Sprite Abilities.

I.E a firebolt with 18 second cooldown takes 18%, flame barrier with 26 second cooldown takes 26%, and a firestorm with 56 second cooldown takes 56%

That's correct.

mer, 11/13/2013 - 07:15
#7
Portrait de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
How do I what do? /watch?v=SdOTun8TWlc

@Hexzyle
Mreh fine. That is an issue but is it really a big one? If it is then it can be taken down to 3 but I really don't think a 5 second stretch is such a problem when we still have dashing.
Also for people who don't want to sprint, like ever, we could add a option to disable it or also require the player to be facing the direction they are running to start sprinting that way they can just not line it up.

mer, 11/13/2013 - 20:52
#8
Portrait de Masterreeve
Masterreeve
@ Hexzyle

You make a point, but i still don't like the idea of the bar only applying to guns. Although if there were new armor that increased the bar recharge rate, even if only by a small fraction then i'd be ok with it.

Although i still don't like a double dash.

jeu, 11/14/2013 - 02:20
#9
Portrait de Hexzyle
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

This idea's pretty full of holes, I was just curious how people like the concept.

Créé avec l'aide de Drupal, un système de gestion de contenu "opensource"