Spiral Knights - Should HoH weapon cost energy instead of crowns?

Should HoH weapon cost energy instead of crowns?

15 replies [Last post]

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 15:45

Amnimonus

A thought came up into my head when come to what energy is suppose to, make game progression faster, In spiral knight term this means weapon and gear become slight easier to get if you pay to play. In that sense before HoH came along all recipes where actually hard to get and trip to the terminal in sense was always worth it because everything there had retail value. Giving life to a major part of the community market in spiral knights.

But as now that I think about, the Hall of Heroes is something that would fall under a premium service that shortens grinding by a lot, so shouldn't it cost ce?

If it would cost ce I think reasonable price for recipe would be
-2*= 50 ce
-3*=100 ce
-4*=250 ce
-5*=450-500 ce

*also note that recipes would no longer be bound

Because the change might cause a but of up roar to some players I'm suggesting if this where to be implemented that as a mission reward player would be given a freebie ticket that allow them to redeem one free recipe of every star.

I know that one freebie won't get you tier clearance but we already get the colbat set for free (6 sets of recipes for free, which some player originally paid for) so yes you will sill be able to get tier clearance. Not to mention recipes would still be available in the terminal for crowns.

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:37

Dibsville

"But as now that I think about, the Hall of Heroes is something that would fall under a premium service that shortens grinding by a lot, so shouldn't it cost ce?"

No.

"*also note that recipes would no longer be bound"

No.

"Because the change might cause a but of up roar to some players I'm suggesting if this where to be implemented that as a mission reward player would be given a freebie ticket that allow them to redeem one free recipe of every star."

No.

Think about how this will effect the Energy Market first, then think of the prices.

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:47

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs5X9Cg0TqYokC3yVCOPYhCt0RNaH-c...

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 20:05

Sonosuke

#Sonosuks

*grabs marshmallows*

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 22:02

Amnimonus

I am thinking of the energy prices

I am thinking about how this would effect energy prices and I see it could go many ways, either:

It would cause the price of ce to go up because people would now have a greater need for energy.

Or ce prices would to drop due to an increase demand for crowns because people would rather use crown to buy recipe from the AH or basil.

Or it would cause a mixture of the two in which the ce prices would have an oscillation, if ce price become to low many will ce that this is a cheaper form of buy recipes, however this would cause and increase in demand in ce and prices will begin to rise until buy recipes with ce is no longer worth it, cause more people to rather farm for recipes or buy them form the auction house then causing a decrease demand for energy and a greater demand for crowns causing the prices of ce to drop again and maybe eventually settling someplace in the middle.

Over this creates and energy sink, and overall the price are chose aren't that bad with the energy prices right now about 7200-7500 crowns last time i checked so the price would be as followed

-2*= 50 ce or 3,800ish
-3*=100 ce or 7,500ish
-4*=250 ce or 18,500ish
-5*=450-500 ce 33,000-37,000ish

If the idea is that something should have a price in crown and energy because energy prices are unstable and subject to change. However something like this already exist and has existed since the supply depot was implement in which you can buy pre-made gear for energy which you can also buy for crowns from stranger merchants (At for 1-3 star weps).
-1 star gear cost 3000 cr or 65 ce from the supply depot (which is about 4800 cr currently)
-2 star gear cost 7500 cr or 150 ce for the depot (about 11100 cr currently)
-3 star gear cost 35000 cr or 500 ce from the or (37000 cr)
*(I remember at one point you could also get 4 and star gear from merchant but I have no evidence for that).

The goal is to add a ce sink, which ultimately does lead to change in energy price which think won't be that big with making HoH recipes cost ce. Overall the two major factor in that affect ce prices are 1 the abundance of crowns (which cause price to rise) and 2 the abundance of ce (which causes prices to drop, usually during a major promo).

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 22:38

Sonosuke

#Sonosuks

Your idea is flawed in terms of the prices.

Your Idea:
-2*= 50 ce or 3,800ish
-3*=100 ce or 7,500ish
-4*=250 ce or 18,500ish
-5*=450-500 ce 33,000-37,000ish

Current Prices:
★★☆☆☆ 1,000
★★★☆☆ 4,000
★★★★☆ 10,000
★★★★★ 25,000

So what you're telling us is that you want the prices to be even higher than they already are. Pure genius. Pure- /me stuffs marshmallows into his mouth

Sat, 02/15/2014 - 23:56

Quartiq

-1

Honestly the only thing i see this suggestion doing is making purchasing recipes from the HoH obsolete and also just increasing the cost of recipes. As I see it, the difference between recipe prices as they are now priced and as they will be priced on the AH after you add this feature will be an increase in cost equivalent to the value of the additional E needed to acquire the energy. As such, buying recipes from HoH and reselling them on the AH will be a waste of effort most of the time. Basil will once again be the optimal place to buy a recipe you're looking for, assuming you do enough runs to find it on him, but that requires yet another level of grinding. This game doesn't need more grinding, fire crystals and leveling items one level at a time seems enough to me. Yes, players do have the option to still buy recipes from the HoH or AH but with the new pricing:

2* = 1,000cr+50E = ~4,800cr
3* = 4,000cr+100E = ~11,500cr
4* = 10,000cr + 250E = ~28,500cr
5* = 25,000cr + 450 or 500E = ~58,000cr or ~62,000cr.

Each of these prices has increased by over 200%. Now consider a new player who needs to make a full set of helm, armor, shield, and weapon to pass HoH rank missions. Assuming he doesn't rely on the mission rewards (which i'm sure we can agree, with the current balancing, are inferior to other options) and receive one free recipe from the HoH, a 2* set will cost ~15k cr (ok, most players will just use the rank rewards for this one), a 3* set will cost ~35k cr, a 4* set will cost ~85k cr, and a 5* set will be ~174k or ~186k cr. I feel these prices are a little punishing to this player and this is assuming they are only making one weapon and doesn't even take into account orbs, mats, and the actual crafting cost. Presented another way, that's a 11k cr increase for a 2* set, a 19k cr increase for a 3* set, a 45k cr increase for a 4* set, and a 74k or 86k cr increase for a 5* set. It's not in OOO's best interest to punish this new player more and chase them away from the game. Sure, on the other hand, this system does benefits the endgame player who has all the gear he needs and is just looking to resell HoH recipes he's found from Basil, but this player really doesn't need any extra love; there are plenty of ways to earn cr as it is now.

Now, as to energy price, I don't see this doing much to the market, as most recipes will be coming from basil and not be being bought from the HoH for reasons described above. It will create more of a cr sink just based off the increased prices but again I believe that the way this is leveled on all players equally will be too punishing to the newer players who don't have extra disposable cr to waste and would cause more of them to quit.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 01:08

Amnimonus

@Sonosuke, Yes actually,

Hall of Heroes is the easy way for player who want to save time by spending a little extra, however recipe at the terminal would still cost the same amount as before. Currently only about 10% of recipe are not available in the hall of heroes (about 30 boss reward recipes out of 330ish recipes that exist between 2-5 star). So there use to be (before the change to crystal bombs and minus krogmo) gave well over 200 reasons to go to the terminal and visit basil which has now been reduce to 30 reasons.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with partially shifting the task of getting recipes back to the terminals. Recipes at the terminal will cost the same amount as always.

"Your idea is flawed in terms of the prices" that was intentional if they costed less than the current ce price would slowly rise until it was no longer cheaper which would over all make other items such as usable more expensive (you basically make energy more much valuable). If you want something faster it usually come at an extra price.

"you want the prices to be even higher than they already are" You seriously think the price are too high? Well this might just be my personal opinion but they don't seem that high, but then again I got used to these prices over time.

@Quartiq I do see your concern about new player and I do agree that the cobalt set is under power in more ways than one. What i don't see or get is:
"purchasing recipes from the HoH obsolete and also just increasing the cost of recipes"
This wouldn't make the HoH completely obsolete, it offers a much faster alternative than searching for them in the clock works, it also serve as a price ceiling for recipes at the AH.
For example a recipe is selling for 37k at the ah and with the current HoH price is 37k cr instead of bidding higher to get the alternatives would be to give up and continue looking for it your self or to buy it at the HoH because it is virtually the same price then. And on that not HoH is also faster than the Ah because there is no waiting period.
I also don't understand exactly what you mean by you pricing estimates on how much they would sell for at the AH, I see that you adding the cr price and the ce price but I don't see the reasoning why. Before the supply depot you could buy pre-made 3 star gear for 35k from a stranger but on the AH they never sold for 35k and never would because any else can buy it from the same place the seller did with little to no effort, unless they had UV of course but then that imply that it was crafted or Punched. Unless you are implying they buy the recipe from the HoH to sell it via auction, which also makes no sense because everybody gets access to the AH.

The only reason I'd see some one selling AH bought recipes would be if they are aim to sell those recipes to those who don't have access to certain stars of gear but that also make no sense because you need mission clearance to equip higher rank and when you get clearance you have access to the HoH.

In short this is a long way of saying that price at the AH would not follow the patterns you indicated your post. The lowest price for a recipe would be equal to or less than the price a the terminal and the highest price would be the price possible would be less than the price at the HoH, not a combination of both unless you have a serious irrational sense of how to maximize profit.

As for grinding that what means to be a free to play player but I do agree grinding has it limits, as with the radiant problem but that is a separate that should be addressed all on its own.

Back to the concern with new players the prices for 2-4 star recipe actually might be too high (maybe 2 star equal 25ce, 3 star at 75 ce and , 4 star at 200ce) seems alright though at 450 maybe a little abusive on 500.

The main problem I see with the HoH is that it speeds up game progress a little to much and encourage grinding the mission with the highest payout rather than exploring the clock works.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 06:30

Sandwich-Potato

The fact is that people will still grind the highest payouts; rather, they would grind even MORE so they can buy all their recipes in bulk from Basil.

Remember though that Basil is a troll. I'm pretty sure that running the Arcade 4 times to get that Winmillion won't make most people that happy. 'sides, Winmillion rules.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:09

Sonosuke

#Sonosuks

No. No.

No, we're done here. *throws marshmallows at Amnimonus*

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 11:00

#10

Amnimonus

@Sandwich-Potato

I'm not aiming to make thing easier so for the most part you can say the result of my goal won't make people that "happy" and some update are not meant to please and increase the difficulty or to increase grinding to "reasonable" amounts.

Some examples of this being done in a reasonable way:

The readjustment of orb drops, when these were first added their drops rate were way too high, with me mainly farming tier 3, I had too many eternal orbs at the end of a run in which i found at least one or 2 (sometimes 3). Even after a mass crafting spree (made some 5 star trinkets upgraded some old 4 star gear that was gathering dust) and I still had about 17 orbs to spare after readjusted rates. Now the rte are a better I don't find and orb every run, maybe other run at most.

An unreasonable example would be the radiant crystals, yes at first because I grind mostly tier 3 I found my self having a surplus of radiants and not enough shining crystals which I need at the moment to level up some newer gear. The rates were readjusted and now I have an easier time finding shining crystal at the price of a radiant drought. Yes the rate used to be too high but it does mean to drive them to rock bottom, unless the goal was to help player drain there surplus of radiant (which congratulations because already happen!).

Yes people would still grinding levels with higher payouts but they will still have to "hunt" for recipes not to mention you can buy recipes in bulk, you can by many different recipes but remember that basil will only sell you one of each recipe though I might be wrong.

Grinding is't that bad as long it not to repetitive, buy repetitive I mean the exact same map over and over again, because of the clocks works changing gate and cycling levels this is some what minimized.

@Sonosuke no no no we're not done here not as long as you have marshmallows.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 11:02

#11

Pipipipipi

The 4th wall shall be shattered!!!

/grabs rock candy

am I late?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 12:02

#12

Whyna

Idea

As well, why don't they bring back elevator prices and remove all possible way of obtaining rarities, except by using the supply depot.

Also lets make radiant crystals cost 9000ce each as well!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 12:10

#13

Pipipipipi

The 4th wall shall be shattered!!!

better yet, add this

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 12:35

#14

Amnimonus

Sarcasm detected

I know I said that my goal wasn't to please but its not to make Spiral knight absolutely miserable. This isn't an extreme, very far from it, it not even reverting completely back to the old days, which I think was better but that's base on my own bias of when the game was better.

Some questions: is recipe hunting really that bad? I don't remember it being much of a complaint so I never though the hall of heroes as completely necessary.
Is the hall of heroes really such a beneficial aspect of the game? Maybe it helps by making progress a lot faster but maybe it a little too fast.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 18:18

#15

Megawatt-King

Amnimonus

>is recipe hunting really that bad? I don't remember it being much of a complaint so I never though the hall of heroes as completely necessary.
It isn't. In fact, it was a good thing because it incentivated players to go on arcade in search for such recipes, and it allowed for them to get more money from those who are too lazy to do the same. That's how I've managed to get through Tier 2 without grinding for really long.

I don't know why OOO decided to put almost every single recipe of the game in there other than hand-holding players even more, but while it's helpful and handy, I don't like it because of what I said: handholding. The number of available recipes should be reduced down instead.

And honestly I don't like your suggestion either. 1st, the energy prices are higher than the recipes are currently worth. Second, it could increase the energy price even further. And 3rd, I'm against any form of advantage that premium players can and could have over f2pers, even if it's p2notgrind.

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Should HoH weapon cost energy instead of crowns?