Spiral Knights - Rage/Query on party 'leader'

Rage/Query on party 'leader'

16 replies [Last post]

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:36

Nixed-Fear

**Warning - some strong language ahead.

Why is there a designated party 'leader'?

This person doesn't host the server, or run the events, or is even expected to know what he's doing. The result is one out of four players with the means to kick/ban anyone he chooses from the group without reason or provocation should he choose to do so. Luckily, the gaming community is made up of well raised adults whom share mutual respect with all their fellow gamers... Yeah, no.

Story time:

I'm still reasonably new to SKs. I suggested it to my two friends for a part time game just to try out and enjoy and that's what we've been doing. So one of them joins a party with only one fellow already two or three levels down into the Roarmulus Twins. We've already 3-manned this dungeon but we're farming up the tokens for some better gear and figure nothing wrong with skipping the first few levels to save some time. But this guy we joined turns out to be a terrible player despite being nearly fully geared tier 4. But alright - I don't [tart] out casual gamers in competitive games; I'm not going to here in a game I'm playing just to have fun. Ultimately we all wipe before the boss (splash damage sucks when your 'teammate' catches rockets right next to you). But ok, I'm not going to rage. Suddenly I'm banned. No discussion, in fact no one's saying anything in chat. Friends can't reinvite and I can't solo 6 creatures in a small room full of traps and rockets. Even if someone did join my game they'd likely get owned too. What can I do at this time? I can reinvite them but that wastes 10 energy for both of them AND because we're as deep as we are they'll lose out on boss tokens. But honestly I'm just too pissed this kid can pull this [crap] off to begin with, so I quit the game and wished my friends good luck while I left to play StarCraft II.

Later they did get to the Roarmulus Twins and the little [crap] actually went afk for the fight.

tl;dr Story:

I play with 2 friends. We join some guy. Guy bans me without cause or provocation.

Suggestion:

DO NOT give one person 'admin' powers over a PUG based game. Do what Left 4 Dead and so many other games do and provide a vote kick/ban system where the majority have to agree that banning the person is for the best.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:16

Mohandar

Their party, their choice.

1. Join random party.
2. Go solo and lock party.
3. Get to next floor.
4. Invite friends.
5. ???
6. Profit!!!

If a player starts a party, it's their right to do as they wish- if you don't like it, go solo, get to the next floor, and invite your buddies. Or start from the lobby or subtown as the party leader. If you can't hack it alone, polish your skills in the previous tier, or go a little slower and don't try to Rambo your way through. People just need to remember that when you join someone else's party, you basically agree to abide by their decisions, no matter how boneheaded or unreasonable; if this doesn't sit well with you, go solo or start your own party.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:43

Demonicsothe

So what do you want? Remove

So what do you want? Remove kicking from a party? That opens up so much opportunities to troll. As does a vote to ban, but I believe that should on exist for kicking party leaders. Not just any one person.

That player did open up his own party, or was lucky and the previous leader left. Most like the former, as not many people leave in the middle of a run. A fair amount, but not every single run.

What if that player was actually good? Would you complain so vehemently? What if such a player was in your group, sabotaging all efforts to beat the level? And the other 2 players are having fun watchin, because this is a game? Would you not like to be able to kick someone like that?

Go solo, lock party, invite buddies.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 00:22

Nixed-Fear

I don't know what you were

I don't know what you were saying in your first statement, Demonicsothe, so I'm not going to risk injustly assuming what you were trying to say.

"What if that player was actually good? Would you complain so vehemently?"

Yes. Now if I were playing poorly, then I'd feel different. But we were carrying this individual. So much so I'd argue he may have been a liability to the team though catching splash damage near allies.

"What if such a player was in your group, sabotaging all efforts to beat the level? And the other 2 players are having fun watchin, because this is a game? Would you not like to be able to kick someone like that?"

I would try to kick him, yes. But this question is so absurd that I have a hard time fully grasping it. On a team with 3 full on trolls? So much so that they jeopardize their own Energy to see failing though to the end in the banner of 'fun' is ridiculous. At least in this mid-tier level. Either they played the game an hour or two and decided it was a waste, or their max on gear and no longer have any need for taking progression seriously.

"Go solo, lock party, invite buddies."

I'm actually kind of offended that this is even a suggestion. Should I have to lock out all contact with other players in online games because some people are dicks? wtf is this [crap]? In an MMO such as SK I shouldn't have to close my game out and find my own group of people that know how to behave just because the game can't cater to deal with trolls. I should think that this is marketing common sense.

You can play the "it's just a game" card but that's just a cop-out. This is not a response that should be given any ground in a suggestions post. It roughly translates into "there's a problem; but just overlook it, it's fine". Some people have lives, some people hold their gaming experience to high standards. And when something like getting banned from your friends game because some [jerk] decided you've been in the group long happens, it's more than enough to have a profoundly negative impact on the gaming experience as a whole.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 00:47

Demonicsothe

First part related to the

First part related to the latter parts. Basically, I agree that parties need a vote to quick, but only to kick the leader. Or allow the current party leader to make someone else leader. I have no problems with the leader holding existing powers.

If the guy was good, and banned you without provocation/reason, you wouldn't be here complaining. Or it would seem even more like a thread crying about being kicked. As it stands, this sounds very much like you were kicked out of your friend's group, and whining about it.

Not a team of 3 trolls, but one troll, and 2 bystanders that watch, but do not interfere in any other way. Some people do in fact go through games fast. Have you ever heard of an elevator pass? Free depths with no energy cost. And many players who has had time to actually play the game fully has enough energy to throw away. Most don't but many does. Who says they have to take the game seriously?

It is, a legitimate suggestion. Who said you had to do what was suggested? You can reserve it for the trolls/hater/detriment to the team kind of players. It wasn't a "do it, or else". You have a choice to leave, choice to make your own party. You have a choice.

But I'll revise the suggestion for you. When you find that the party leader is not to your taste, you may go solo to become a party leader, and leave your party open while inviting friends. Leave that open spot(s) for meeting new people. Nobody has said, close out your game and become a sk recluse.

Suggestions are fine, but don't hate a game because it doesn't cater to you. Do the developers have an obligation to do so? No. As entitled as you feel, you have nothing forcing you to play.

Okay, no "its a game" comment.

Is one bad party leader a detriment to your gaming experience? If it was your first ever dive, then I can see your reasoning behind it. But from your post, it isn't. And you have put out no other instances of such events happening. If it was an event that happens repeatedly, they should have been posted in order to back up your suggestion.

I could say that by looking in the forum and seeing this one post, that the playerbase is full of entitled, self deserving people who feel like one bad experience is deserving of a rage post, plus suggestions for the devs to remake parties. Would that be accurate?

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:09

Inthecoconut

Dear Demonicsothe

@Demonicsothe -

I really do not understand the logic of the counter-argument. What is worse, having three people trolling one person, or giving one person the power to troll 3 players? In the first instance, you have only one victim, and in the second (the one specific to the OP), you have 3 victims. Could this have been avoided by simply playing the game exclusively with your friends? Certainly. But does this have any logic whatsoever? This is an MMO with a focus on co-operative play. You can't control who you are going to be teamed up with when you join an open-game, so yes, there are certain risks. But should the game feel like a gamble every time you chose to play with strangers? And I think that is what the OP is really saying, is that this one feature, of allowing one person to have unchallenged power and control over the party, makes it a very real risk every time you chose to play with new people online. And your “solution” to this problem is to go hide in some corner and play by yourself? Does it really make any sense to you, or anyone else who signs up for this game, to go out of their way and AVOID playing with other people on an online game? I really do not think that was the intention of the developers.

I also love how you keep bringing in the argument about how the OP wouldn't care so much had the party leader actually have been decent in this situation. If someone randomly kicks me from the party, without saying anything, after I have already invested 50+ energy into helping them clear each level, am I going to care that that person was amazing at the game? Am I really going to think “Oh darn, he kicked me, but its okay because he was a decent player.” This has nothing to do with someone's skill level, its a matter of ethics and being a douche-bag. I think the point the OP is making, that you are clearly missing, is the irony in the fact that this party leader was absolutely horrible, and yet he, being the better person, was able to get over it and continue to play and clear out levels, and invest time, energy, and extra effort into helping this clearly inexperienced player, only to have him randomly kick him from the party without so much of an explanation.

I am sorry that you have issues with someone who saw something they disapproved of in the game that negatively impacted their fun, and thought to offer up a suggestion on how to make it better. Is it just their opinion? Yes. Do you have to agree with it? No. But to come on here and say that his suggestion holds no weight because he has only one post? To say that it shouldn't be considered by the developers of the game because he has only one post? I would like to think the developers of this game would like to hear the input of what all their players have to say, whether they have one post, or 300. But how nice of you to speak on their behalf about how to play their game because you would certainly know, seeing as you've played here for so long. Let's just completely ignore the suggestion of a new, disgruntled player because they have only one post. You coming on here and essentially telling him to stop complaining and posting is just as negative and hypocritical, if not worse, than a player coming on here feeling entitled to complain, even though that is obviously not the intention of this post, and I am sorry that was the impression you got from it. Please learn to decipher the difference between some “entitled player” [tarting] on the forums, and a disgruntled player who is obviously frustrated with a particular instance, but offers up CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and suggestions on how to IMPROVE the situation before you go and completely disregard and downgrade everything they have to say because you feel superior to them.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:16

Demonicsothe

You can't control who you end

You can't control who you end up with, yes. Am I saying that because of that, he has to always go solo? No. He can go solo when he wishes to avoid certain players. You guys make it sound like there is a troll leader in every party. That's not true. And such a gamble puts you with mostly decent players. Even if they do worst than you, or doesn't talk, most of them has a better personality than the leader in OP's group. Am I saying avoid everyone and everything? No. Feel free to disregard this part of my post too. But he has a choice.

Those parts of my post were aimed at OP to get him to suggest in a better way. Coming on the forums to rage about one player, then putting in a suggestion because of that one player, is not a good idea. Neither is it terrible, but it is not a good one. Why? Because then the forum will be filled with tons of "suggestions" to avoid that one scenario. Perhaps he can bring up some different situations, not necessarily experienced, where such an idea will be superior to the one we currently have.

I'm not saying he has one forum post, he could have posted more, and been here longer, than me and I wouldn't know. I'm talking about how one scenario, one bad experience, has caused him to come on the forums to ask devs to implement a better idea. This is the same as the many "remove energy" threads, because they wish to enjoy and play the game more. Has those players figured out how to deal with it at the time of thread creation? No. Experienced T2 players know how to run on ce and the such. There is a solution. He could wait until the devs add his idea, but have you seen OOO's releases? Nothing big, nothing game changing. Yes, there has been a few, and I won't argue that his one post won't have an effect. But less crying, more suggestion/reasons to back it up, gives it more weight.

Nobody, this OP included, has really complained about player skill in anything that is not T3, and those are mostly considering fighting vanaduke. In fact, arrying a new player is a great learning experience. Monsters gain more health and you have to deal with that, and a lack of power to balance it out. I'm saying that if the other player had held his own, OP would complain less.

Do I feel superior? Yes I do, I feel like that I am a better person, because I have encountered many of such party leaders, and without feeling like I have to complain because I found a way to deal with it. I had a problem, I solved it. OP is mad. OP is very mad. So mad, that he is offended a perfectly reasonable solution is actually provided.

Please tell me, where have I ever said always go solo and always avoid everyone?

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:51

Hexzyle

Err. just want to pop this in

Err. just want to pop this in here, you'll get warnings for swearing in the forums. i suggest removing offensive language before an admin finds this.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:04

Tuhui

@ Hexzyle LOL, admin checking

@ Hexzyle LOL, admin checking this. Either way you can probably make the same points with out the potential to be chided(and no i did not read your wall of texts so i don't know what you actually typed).

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:48

Hexzyle

@Tuhui

I got a warning in game when I logged into SK about not using offensive language on the forums, that was after I dropped the F bomb on a thread to do with big swords and I was talking about using the Sada to know monsters the frak (the word it was replaced with) away from me.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:51

#10

Hexzyle

However that was in the New

However that was in the New Recruits section, which is a section that the admins actually read lol. I wonder how long it will take them to get here XD

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:49

#11

Asukalan

Yes they read Oo, then can

Yes they read Oo, then can get you even after 1-2 days after you posted something.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:46

#12

Tuhui

I know that they listen,

I know that they listen, probably >.>, but it has become a joke to me because they never comment on our stuff, i went through all pages and saw less then 10 treads in suggestions that actualy have an admin response and some of those, if i remember correctly, were not actually about the topic. I guess that they can't let people know that they are working on something but i think that actualy commenting on stuff would stop alot of pointless threads.

EDIT: Sorry about getting off topic on your thread Nixed-Fear.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:38

#13

Nixed-Fear

Response

@Demonicsothe
"You guys make it sound like there is a troll leader in every party. That's not true."
Of course there's not. But that point is mute. My argument is that is it better to give one player the power or the majority of the players? Thus, does it require one troll to preform a kick or three? What one do you believe to be more likely to be fair and balanced?

"Coming on the forums to rage about one player, then putting in a suggestion because of that one player, is not a good idea."
You're twisting my motive. I'm not here because there's trolls in the game, or to even claim that this one was out of line (though he was in this case). My point is that: on a whim the party leader has too much power over the team without reason. Why should any average player have so much control over a party in an MMO? Allowing this 'leader' to kick/ban people on a whim because he can isn't good game design. Give the power to the majority and away from one person.

Mohandar provides his views of: "People just need to remember that when you join someone else's party, you basically agree to abide by their decisions, no matter how boneheaded or unreasonable...". But this is only stating how it is. I'm asserting that my suggestion provides a better solution for all concerned. What should give the leader so much power? How can you justify that? 'Because he /probably/ spent the most Energy on the dungeon?' That doesn't justify a troll going afk, trash talking the team, or doing everything in his power to make the dungeon an unpleasant experience. Again, give the power to the majority of these parties, not the individual.

"I'm talking about how one scenario, one bad experience, has caused him to come on the forums to ask devs to implement a better idea."
What does frequency have to do with this? If it's a good suggestion let it stand for itself - don't bring abstract arguments to attempt to counter it. And just for the record, this was actually our first time joining someone else's group. So, so far we're on a 100% of the time record!

"I'm saying that if the other player had held his own, OP would complain less."
Again you're asserting that my issue is with the individual. Let me make it very clear - it's not. I know there're trolls. It's about the poor design of the current kick/ban feature in the game. I feel a majority vote of the players concerned would be a more accurate and fair representation of who should be banned.

"Do I feel superior? Yes I do, I feel like that I am a better person, because I have encountered many of such party leaders, and without feeling like I have to complain because I found a way to deal with it. I had a problem, I solved it."
There's a lot wrong with this statement. But I like how you chose to sneak it in anyway.

You say you dealt with it. But all I see is you bending over and taking it in order to work around it. I don't see how you feel you're superior in this matter by just accepting it. This is a problem, and you're admitting to it. But you just chose to let it be. No, Demonicsothe, I don't see how you've convinced yourself that it's acceptable to recognize a problem, then defend the problem when an alternative is presented.

@Hexzyle
"...you'll get warnings for swearing in the forums. i suggest removing offensive language before an admin finds this."
Thank you for the warning. I wasn't sure. However, I did provide a warning just in case at the utmost top of the first post. But I won't be going back and editing everything word by word, but I'll be more delicate in my wording here on out.

This may be the last post on this topic. I believe I've presented my case about as well as I'm going to.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:46

#14

Melisan

Nixed-Fear please edit your

Nixed-Fear please edit your posts and take out the swearing your disclaimer is no shield to using that language here.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:11

#15

Mayaura

It's not a new complaint.

We've been complaining constantly from way back about party leaders having the power to kick people the way they do. There could at least be some warning or option to invite others party members to join you like when you are on the lift at the beginning of a new tier. Instead there's just that sickening, deathly black screen and a reload to isolation. The whole way it's set up sucks hard, but for whatever reason(s), the administrators will not change it. It is quite possibly (or in my opinion, definitely), the worst feature in the game. Even though I have been playing long enough so that I often have nothing gaining heat and can solo anywhere, I still bristle at getting kicked, and the possibility that it could happen to you at anytime creates a subtle current of anxiety that somewhat undermines the pleasure of playing.

@ Melisan - You have the perfect squint-eyed image for scolding people, :)

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 07:01

#16

Melisan

:) It's the one i use when

:) It's the one i use when scolding my kids.

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Rage/Query on party 'leader'