So Mad Bomber is worthless now
mer, 01/30/2013 - 22:16
#102
http://forums.spiralknights.c
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/73633#comment-636153
"We appreciate your feedback on these new changes and will be monitoring the response and in-game behavior closely.
The idea with the Chaos set is to create a 'glass cannon' style of play. Before this change we felt that it was more glass than cannon. It's possible the buffs were too much and we'll be, as mentioned, examining the feedback. Other sets that seem 'obsolete' now as a result of this change are being evaluated. Please continue a (civil) discussion.
Thanks."
So that is as close as a "Sorry, we totally forgot about Mad Bomber and we messed up" as we can get.
I still remember for the shard bomb change, OOO stood their ground and defended the change (said it's part of more balance changes in the future). And then this.
More and more I believe OOO really does hate bombers, treating all bomber stuff like ugly, misshapen children, best locked in the basement and forgotten.
mer, 01/30/2013 - 22:31
#103
The problem is not that bombers can also use it.
The problem is bombers already have it as one of very few advantages over swords and guns which have many more advantages and are easier to use. Move back to go and do not collect $200. I still want that cup of glowing lizards. It would make a delightful hat.
mer, 01/30/2013 - 22:36
#104
From the new Chaos Set we know two things:
1)The value of the Chaos Set will increase exponentionally and there might be a new Chaos Clone Revolution against The Skolver Clone.
2)The Chaos Set might not be useful to Swordies and Gunners in LD but its an awesome thing for Demos as they obviously get Max CTR on LvL 10 and a Very High Dmg Bonus which will increase the importance of the Bomber Community in LD and in the Clockworks.
mer, 01/30/2013 - 23:00
#105
@Thinslayer
That's the point! There is a bomber-specific armour that does the exact same thing as Chaos except only for bombs. Look at the thread's title?
mer, 01/30/2013 - 23:02
#106
"I would place my chips on +1
"I would place my chips on +1 attack speed, damage, and charge per part for the rerebalanced Chaos. Some salt and vinegar, a few barbecue, maybe a couple ranch."
--Luguiru
But then it becomes too unfocused and you lose the knockout aspect of having a VH damage bonus. Instead of being a cannon, it becomes something completely different.
The ideal versatile set would probably be something like a 5* Vitasuit. Defense Power Normal. No Status Weakness/Bonus. But it would have low ASI/ low Damage/ low CTR. It wouldn't be capable of tanking damage, but it also wouldn't be hindered by a bevy of weaknesses.
mer, 01/30/2013 - 23:37
#107
-
It doesn't need to be a glass cannon. +1 global ASI, damage and CTR would put it in a good niche that no other set fills.
mer, 01/30/2013 - 23:40
#108
Glass cannon?
--> Lower its actual defensive value (ex: aside from the actual normal/elemental defense, lowering its health boost (or [gasp] giving it negative health!?)
bam.
Also, if bomber sets actually had more defensive value (ex: higher health bonus) and increased damage, it could be on the better path of balance. The main issue with bombers and their offense sets, really, is the bombs themselves.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 00:50
#109
@Poetry I prefer the Hybrid
@Poetry I prefer the Hybrid setup as opposed to the glass cannon. In LD, I never saw it as being that subpar to the Skolver line-up and I always felt that even the slight damage boost in guns helped offset its 'lesser' damage bonus with swords. Most Skolvers pack pierce defense anyway making them a 5 hit with flourish hits regardless with VH or Max boost and Non-pierce armored Strikers still die in 4. Also, getting the benefit being the only gun or sword damage boosting set with normal and elemental defense from the ever growing use of Brandishes is a definite plus. Of course, with statuses the only one I ever saw as a definite problem is Shock but even then, any set that isn't immune tends to have a problem with it.
It's pre-patch stats were imo perfect the way they were and is still a great set vanilla despite it's drawbacks. I just felt players never took the time to figure out the potential this thing had that level.
Being that this thread's intent was originally about bombers, we should probably consider how it would effect the other gears as well. not just shadowsun or Skolver/Snarb, but other sets across the spectrum. The new kat helms(especially the black one) seem to definitely fit the bill of 'glass cannon'
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 00:31
#110
Cooperstown, ND
Here is my take on this issue:
- "Glass Cannon" is a play style. The SK trinity (Swordie, Gunner, Bomber) are ways to distribute damage to targets. They should be independent of each other;
- leave Chaos Cowl as is and make it the de facto "Glass Cannon" gears;
- replace Mad Bomber set with a new line of Bomber's gear that provides shadow and/or piercing resistance. If Bombers want to play Glass Cannon, mix the Mad Bomber MK2 with Chaos set. This will provide some flexibility to trade off cannon power and glassiness.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a Bomber myself but from what I'm seeing, remove / replace / remodel Mad Bomber set is the right way to go. Right now, all these rumbling occur because Nick didn't carry out the transition all the way through. Remodel Mad Bomber into something Bombers are happy, everything would be A-OK.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 00:47
#111
Let me try to illustrate the problem for those who are not bombers.
Let us say you made a sword. We will call it Divine Avenger. You put resources into acquiring Divine Avenger, but it was worth it. It is a fine sword despite its weakness to gremlins and beasts.
Today, OOO buffed Sudaruska. It is like Divine Avenger but normal damage.
And now it is just as strong against undead as Divine is. But also that strong against every enemy.
Also, the charge shoots beams out of the explosion.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 01:04
#112
@Sir-Pandabear
Beams out of the explosion? Not only is that overkill but it's nonsensical. The Sudaruska/Triglav are pure heavy swords, they don't have any built-in technology to emit explosions. Other than that, I'd be quite happy with it. The Divine Avenger still has an epic charge attack so it would boil down to preference at that point, though I would argue that the Divine Avenger retains supremacy against elemental-weak mobs.
So in short...are we making a mountain out of a mole-hill?
---
+1 for Eltia by the way.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 03:58
#113
@eltia
replace Mad Bomber set with a new line of Bomber's gear that provides shadow and/or piercing resistance. If Bombers want to play Glass Cannon, mix the Mad Bomber MK2 with Chaos set. This will provide some flexibility to trade off cannon power and glassiness.
Isn't it clear that we already play as Glass Canon with Mad Bomber set...? I mean... except for shadow defense (which is bleh...) what does Mad Bomber Set has to offer in term of defense?
Nothing. Mad Bomber Set should be the pinnacle of Bombers, I don't like that another set can do the same with better resistance and better shadow defense. I mean... What's the point of having the Mad Bomber set in the first place? Skolver and Snarbo are piercing/ice vs shadow/ice/poison, it does make sense but if Skolver was shadow, had less shadow defense than Snarbo then nobody would f***ing use skolver
I don't mind if Chaos Cowl was piercing/elemental though...
Please tone it back to CTR low (get med with set) with med dmg (get VH with set)
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 04:59
#114
"Chaos set only seems great
"Chaos set only seems great because people underestimate the severity of statuses."
I used to run FSC in Mad Bomber. Not because I was actually a bomber, I mostly used swords in FSC at the time, but because I didn't have a CTR UV on my Shivermist and I was the unofficial person that kept Vana frozen. Statuses, even when you have negative resist aren't that big of an issue if you're good at dodging (no status if you don't get hit, non?) and are smart enough to pick up Remedies.
Is the Chaos set OP now? Eh, a little bit. Am I going to use it in PvP, not a chance, PvP is too heavily reliant on statuses and you can't get immunity to anything with the Chaos set. As for PvE, I've already thought up a nicely powerful loadout for the Chaos set. Even with me expecting it to get nerfed the loadout will be very very fun.
~Gwen
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 05:18
#115
I'am still afraid that the
I'am still afraid that the upcoming patches will nerf chaos set into oblivion by making damage buffs turned into increase charge time and decrease damage MAX
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 06:04
#116
@Shidara
I was trying to paint the picture of Sudaruska having the exact same charge attack as Divine Avenger, except it also has the explosion from Sudaruska's charge attack.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 06:11
#117
Ah, no.
I will not stand for them to nerf Chaos down to launch-level or beyond. It was already ignored back then, and only saw more usage after it was granted low/low CTR.
It might not stay the same as just now but I have my highest doubts that it'll be terribly nerfed by any stretch.
---
@Zeddy
Again, that doesn't make any sense given the design of the sword. You chose a fairly bad example for this comparison.
ven, 02/01/2013 - 10:00
#118
Wall of text @Nick
I've been a fan of Chaos set for a long time. I already thought that Chaos set is the best set before I even making Vog Cub set or Shadowsun set which most players in this game make before getting Chaos. So note that I'm not a new fan of the "OP Chaos", I'm a fan of Chaos set itself continuing from the past and now. I am glad we had a buff on Chaos as most people used to avoid the set and would never use in their entire SK life. Chaos has been my partner, who is a pure F2P and too lazy to merchant to get richer.
=====
Firstly, let's list the problems made by the buff update.
1, Obviously, as title says, Mad Bomber set is worthless.
Madbomber set is now totally useless apart from the curse resist which does not affect much to players with 3-4 weapon slots. This is why the thread was made, and many people posted comments.
However, it could be a buff for Bombers in LD. As many gunners/swordies run to Chaos set for the offensive bonus. Which means many people in LD lose their status resist, there you go, TEMPEST FTW. Shiver was kinda dead before the update, but now Shiver can be in bomber's LD Loadout.
2, Other armour sets are obsoleted
What Nick said there.
3, Effect on the market
CTR UVs are worth much less than it used to be. In other hand, the price of Magic set with UVs especially Fire and Shock I suppose, and ASI would be worth more than CTR UVs. Merchants who bought CTR weapons for cheap and wanted to resell would make a huge loss.
4, Simply overpowered
You can make a weapon type MAX DMG, MAX CTR, Ultra ASI without ANY UVs if the weapons are lvl10 heated.
I have been posting this link like twice on the forums but yeah, why not, here is the proof :)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=123944683
(My Voltedge has ASI Med UV so let's forget the UV and replace my Trueshot module with ASI Med sword trinket)
======
So, I wouldn't say to nerf the amazing offensive part hence it is a good friend with F2P (harder to get good UVs than P2P). And I am sure many people just can't go back to the "old" chaos once we have tasted the OP feeling which I have never had before the patch (although I have been a fan of chaos for a long time as I've written up there). Or people who already spent tons of money into those MAX resist Chaos would just rage quit the game lol.
Instead, I strongly recommend to nerf the defense as Nick mentioned about being a “glass cannon”
Many people have posted a lot on nerfing defense as their opinions, so I will just list my opinions on solutions.
1, Make the penalties even stronger
It currently is Medium penalty resists on Fire, Shock, Freeze, Poison and Curse. I’m saying that you should make High to MAX. Before the patch you could even get positive resists by using MAX UVs, Medium to be neutral (this is what I have). But look, isn’t it The True OP to have (at least) VH DMG/CTR + ASI High on Blitz/Brandish in FSC with positive Fire resist + Elemental defense? So make it impossible to get positive resists via UVs. Still, there are something called 5* resist trinkets but I feel it is kinda forgotten in my arsenal and in many offensive trinkets’ fan too, I reckon. I think it is a good chance to “buff” the 5* resist trinkets and Brinks will be happy!
Also I would recommend to add Stun penalty too, it is going to be a buff for Bombers of LD with stagger storm. And before Stun resist UVs tend to be lower priced than Fire/Shock UVs as you could still walk slowly but properly and Stun time was (is) short. But with a longer Stun time, it will get a lot more annoying and makes Chaos set less OP in FSC – many stun sources, Trojan and Vanaduke.
2, Add health penalty
Adding health penalty, even -1 per piece is going to be a pain as Chaos set obviously has penalties on each status effects except Stun (written above). Fire directly kills you by its pure damage, monsters around you kill you while you are interrupted by Shock/Freeze/(Stun), Poison increases the damage you get and Curse increases the rate of suicide. And with health penalty, the percentage of getting killed by the status effects will increase.
3, Decrease the amount of Normal/Elemental defense
Simply decrease the amount of Normal/Elemental defense or completely cut off the Elemental defense and make it another kind of Vitasuit Deluxe type of equipment.
=====
Another solution is, just “Buffing the Mad Bomber set”
I don't know what the best way to buff it is, as I am not a bomber. But here are the solutions I thought.
1, Adding health bonus
Deleting/decreasing resist penalties will make Bombastic/Volcanic obsolete so leave it and instead add health bonus.
2, Make the DMG bonus Med per piece to High
That would make difference between Chaos and Mad Bomber set. Mad Bomber users could fill their trinket slots with Penta Hearts/another weapon type’s offensive trinket/5* resist trinkets to cancel the penalties out instead of putting Bomb DMG trinket.
3, Adding extra offensive bonus to Mad bomber
I think 2 above is not enough to make difference between Chaos and Mad Bomber. So maybe add Movement Speed Increase…oh wait, it would make Mercurial Demo set obsoleted...I don’t know really. You could add a new UV like Fuse Time Reduction replacing CTR Med on Mad Bomber.
=====
I guess what you had to buff is the Angelic line, Iron Slug, Big Angry Bomb, Winmillion, Cautery Sword etc.
Well, I guess that is all I can say. I’m looking forward to see Chaos set truly becomes the Glass Cannon and Mad Bomber to be loved by bombers again.
Chaos Set Forever <3
--Eclaium
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 07:30
#119
Cooperstown, ND
+1 to Zeddy.
I got to agree to this. This is not the first time this kind of "knee jerking" happening--some balancing happens and bomber's benefit got damage. The compensation (if any) are not adequate. e.g. shard bomb patch gives us UV ticket which is not comparable to the effort some of us has put in effort to acquire the good UVs on old RSS.
[Constructive criticism is welcome, but please stick to the forum rules and avoid getting personal now matter how strongly you feel about an issue. If you have a personal problem with another player or a member of the OOO staff, please send it through support per the forum rules. Thanks. -Eurydice]
So from what I can gather, you have this idea of "Glass Cannon" play style, which me and many others think are fine. But can you, for a moment, temporary suspend swordie and gunner in your head, and for once, dedicate 100% of your mental capacity to look at the balancing beginning with bombers? Bombers still don't have any piercing / shadow resistance equipment. Old RSS, a perfectly good bomb, was removed last year and the compensation given is an insult to some people. The new shard bombs, aren't even on par with the old ones all because some Devs feel bombers could be "OP". The list can go on but that's not the point.
The point, I believe, is that you told us you are making all these changes because of "game balancing" and you are taking this very seriously. From what me and many others have gathered so far, we (again) don't see that is happening. Your boss asked me to support you (and SK) and I did exactly that for almost half a year. And I think this thread speaks for the results of following your boss' advice.
What can vet. bombers like me can do? You can post to this forum and feel good after (but nothing much happens), you can write to Three Ring's executives about the problem (and they will send you back to here), you can stop becoming a bomber (like I did), or move on to other games before the addiction starts developing further. There aren't a lot of avenue really and I'm slowing moving down on that list.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 07:34
#120
@Shidara
I made Sudaruska's damage and charge identical to Divine Avenger. It is a perfect example of what's happening here.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 08:03
#121
"1. Make the penalties even
"1. Make the penalties even stronger"
--Eclaium
I think you forget how debilitating those status weaknesses can be for new or average players--and even for experienced players on occasion.
While i can solo FSC or GiM in any outfit without much trouble, one bad bounce in the Chaos set, and this can happen quite easily:
http://i46.tinypic.com/35c0pzb.jpg
And mind you, i have a shock uv on my set.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 08:21
#122
@Poetry
This is avoidable.
If you are concentrated you wouldn't get cornered and there is something called Remedy, if you need one just buy one at the lobby.
What you need is concentration, that's all. When I get cornered, it is also when there are so many chats going on or when I'm listening to a music (I so much concentrate on music lol).
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 08:42
#123
I will be very upset if they
I will be very upset if they don't nerf it appropriately, this thread has some great ideas!
I'll throw in mine too...
To follow the glass cannon...
Keep the bonuses to keep it a canon, but
Only Normal Defense, at the level of a heated 3* boosted plate mail, and +3 HP when level 10. Maximum status penalty. And now it is actually made out of glass.
To re-purpose it...
Keep the bonuses, but only for guns. The main problem with this set is that the bonuses are universal. Also nerf the resistance a bit...
Swordsmen dominate everything and have a great variety of gear
Bombers have Mad Bomber
So it would seem appropriate to dedicate this to gunslingers.
To simply nerf it...
One piece grants CTR Med and DMG Low, and the other, DMG Med and CTR Low, so they'd only add up to High. Nerf resistances.
To re-focus it...
Remove Damage bonus completely.
Just my two cents. I hope they will nerf it, because it's ridiculously OP...
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 09:17
#124
@ Eclaium Like i said, this
@ Eclaium
Like i said, this is an instance in which the ball bounced the wrong way, most of the time, i solo and barely get touched.
http://i46.tinypic.com/35c0pzb.jpg
But i'd imagine this happens often to average players.
But that begs the question, should the properties of an armor be dictated by the experienced players? Or should it be considerate of players of every skill set?
I can solo FSC in basically any set now and kill Vana with a silversix or a nova driver, with any gun really (i don't have a blitz, but i could probably kill Vana with a proto gun if i had enough time), but does that mean that the silversix is OP against Vana? The fact that i can avoid being hit, doesn't mean that that's the case for every player.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 09:03
#125
Even though I use Chaos all
Even though I use Chaos all the time (since I grind FSC only) I have to admit that it's way too strong now. I'd leave it as it was and start to balance other stuff that's REALLY bad/useless.
All they need to do is either make it CTR low/DMG low again or it they want to buff it so much then:
1. Add ASI Low (CTR/ASI/DMG Lows) or
2. Reduce all negative statuses to negative low or
3. Add DMG Low (CTR Low, DMG Med)
Any of those above would certainly be a nice buff. But Chaos still would be as only one of few options instead of the best one.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 09:55
#126
@LuguiroI actually use bombs
@Luguiro
I actually use bombs too, and well your tirade was nice to read but sorry, I still don't feel like bombs are unviable, or you're doing it wrong. Frankly an AoA destroy any arena level quicker and safer than any swords or guns. A bomber is supposed to do decent damage against a lot of ennemies or in a more supportive role, applying status or vortexes to ennemies. He's the best at that, and the weapons he got are efficient enough to do so.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 09:58
#127
@Poetry
It is a glass cannon set. The entire idea is for experienced players to use it.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 10:10
#128
@Poetry
+1 @Sir-Pandabear
This is what i was going to type now, lol
And Poetry, I don't really care how experienced player you are, it doesn't affect on the buffing/nerfing of the Chaos set at all
@Enfeebler
+1 on number 3, I don't want ASI bonus on all...there is something called SSB :D
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 10:12
#129
Cooperstown, ND
I agree the Chaos set is meant to be a glass cannon set. The point here is that, we don't need multiple glass cannon set. Now that Nick (and others) expect Bombers to use Chaos set to become glass cannon, can we somehow get a serious look at that Mad Bomber set and the various more urgent needs of the Bombers as a whole?
Bombers in SK have been going through too much neglects (and some may call them abuses). This recent change to Chaos set only reaffirm this direction.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 11:14
#130
"Glass cannon" set. A player should die in 1-3 hits imo. Anyway glad I sold my VH ASI/VH CTR Voltedge for 75k ce before they buffed Chaos Set. Now if I ever want max CTR again I can just make a Chaos Set..
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 12:20
#131
@Wodanct
Old chaos was pretty much 1-2 hit death if you are unlucky enough to find no vitapod in fire themed place.
Get a punch from a fire lumber when you are wearing chaos and no vitapod, you'd probably die
@Kagisnad-ll
To re-purpose it...
Keep the bonuses, but only for guns. The main problem with this set is that the bonuses are universal. Also nerf the resistance a bit...
Swordsmen dominate everything and have a great variety of gear
Bombers have Mad Bomber
So it would seem appropriate to dedicate this to gunslingers.
Strongly disagree, can't there be "set for hybrid"?
And this thread's title says, "mad bomber is worthless now", so you can't say that "Bombers have Mad Bomber"
Doesn't Gunners have Seerus mask which is likely to be similar to a piece of Mad Bomber?
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 12:55
#132
@Eclauim
Seerus mask has protection against fire and shock and negative to poison and freeze where Mad has negative to all four statuses.
Go ahead and show me one person who cares about negative freeze and poison.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 13:25
#133
@Sir-Pandabear
Seerus has a weaker Offensive bonus than mad bomber but Seerus has better defensive bonus than mad bomber. Isn't that fair enough. I didn't mean "glass cannon" or whatever by saying Seerus mask is similar to Mad bomber which means double offense bonus and negative statuses.
I myself hate negative freeze than negative shock when I don't have remedy or team mates to unfreeze or shield to protect myself against next hit of monster which unfreezes you.
Also once you get on the freeze trap by lag or knock back from a monster in solo, it is harder to get out than getting on shock trap. On shock trap, you can get out by combing Flourish/WRH but on freeze trap not.
Yes, shock is the most annoying status in LD.
12 secs of poison? wow I'm now 4* newbie even thought I'm wearing 5*!
===
Im sorry Im kinda spamming the thread :(
I just have too much to say D:
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 13:33
#134
@Eclaium
If you have no teammates to protect you, no shield, and negative shock you will get hit several times from being frozen in place by shock but only once from freeze.
I agree on the freeze pads. They are jerks.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 13:38
#135
Derailing?
There's enough conversation and ideas in this thread to make like four other threads.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 13:57
#136
I don't understand how people
I don't understand how people can say the Chaos set is OP with a straight face when the Wolver line has been in existence this entire time.
While it does overshadow the Mad Bomber set, it's on par with the other offensive-oriented, bonus sword sets.
Juxtaposed next to the Vog Cub set, for instance, you see a balance in the trade-offs:
Chaos<<<<>>>>>>Vog Cub
Normal Defense<<>>Normal Defense (Vog is slightly higher)
Elemental Defense<>Elemental Defense
Universal Damage Bonus (med+med)<<>>Sword ASI (med+med)
Weak to Poison, Fire, Freeze, Shock, Curse (-5) <<>> No Weakness (0)
Universal CTR <<>> Significant Fire Resistance
So the trade-off comes down to this.
Because you have<<<<>>>you get:
No positive Status Resist Bonus<<>>Universal Attack Bonuses
Poison Weakness <<<<>>Additional Low Bonus
Fire Weakness<<<<<>>>Additional Low Bonus
Freeze Weakness <<>>>>Additional Low Bonus
Shock Weakness<<<<>>>Additional Low Bonus
Curse Weakness/Slightly Lower Normal Defense<<<<>>>Luxury of having two different bonuses
The Chaos set also features the two worst status resist weaknesses (Fire/Shock).
And this breakdown is applicable to all the Wolver Sets. The Chaos set is essentially the equal of the 5* Wolver line now, in a warped way.
It's not that the Chaos Set is OP (because if it is, that's an admission that the Wolver line always has been).
On the other hand, the Mad Bomber, as people have mentioned, has been eclipsed by a second option that may potentially be more attractive.
Juxtaposing the Chaos Set and the Mad Bomber set reveals the following:
Chaos<<<<>>>>>>Mad Bomber
Normal Defense<<>>Normal Defense (even)
Elemental Defense<>Elemental Defense (even)
Universal Damage Bonus (med+med)<<>>Bomb Damage Bonus (med+med)
Weak to Poison, Fire, Freeze, Shock, Curse (-5) <<>> Weak to Poison, Fire, Freeze, Shock (-4)
Universal CTR <<>> Bomb CTR
So looking at this breakdown you see that at first glance, it appears even, BUT:
Chaos<<<>>>>>>>Mad Bomber
Universal Bonus<<>>Bomber Specific Bonus
Weak to Curse<<>> No Curse Weakness
And it's not so much that the disparity is completely jarring and uneven, the problem is that when placing the two armors side-by-side, the Chaos ends up being the more attractive choice.
Maybe the way to resolve this issue is to give the Mad Bomber set a curse weakness, so that it matches all of the Chaos set's 5 weaknesses, while adding something...maybe as some have mentioned, a Low Medium Speed Increase on each piece.
So that, as we've seen, the Wolver Line/Chaos Set will be on even ground and the Mad Bomber set will join the ranks of equality by virtue of trading off the Chaos set's Universal Bonus in exchange for a Medium Movement Speed Increase (or a positive + Status Resistance).
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:01
#137
Or you can just give the
Or you can just give the Wolver line-up some negative resistance to balance out its considered OPness XD.
How about comparisons to Shadowsun?
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:04
#138
@ Reqy
You know i'd be down for that in a heartbeat :P
But i do think if you give the Mad Bomber set a curse weakness (bring it's total to negative 5), so that it matches the Chaos set defensively, then add either a Medium Speed Increase (or a significant Status Resistance [stun maybe]), you would have a way of justifying the universal attack bonus on the Chaos while making the Mad Bomber set attractive again.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:22
#139
Again this nonsense about
Again this nonsense about wolver armour beeing Op...Meh. I'll say it once again Skolver/Snarby=Shadowsun=Bombastic Vog=Nameless/Justifier=Volcanic demo suit. None has more advantages than the other.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:33
#140
@Poetry
For your info, I've been a while using chaos set + swiftstrike buckler at FSC. I could say I have no difficulty doing all of them including vanaduke boss either solo or with party members. However, I prefer to get party members since I hate doing anything alone.
The only reason I died are either I am not being careful (doing some other internet stuffs or eating), or internet lagging. And that is before the update.
I've never tried on Shadow Lair and lockdown with those set unfortunately.
My main point is that after a while, almost everything in clockworks is just a silly walk, that you don't need any significant defense at all, just offensive buff is all that matters. I don't think status resistance is comparable with any offensive bonus.
You couldn't really compare damage with asi either.
I could say chaos >>> vog cub set even before the update, considering your weapon has no uv, and swiftstrike buckler.
The only reason I use vog cub set occasionally is Compound 42 (the answer of life) and Red Roarmulus Twins trip.
Giving MSI on chaos set, just like giving pain to, yet, another gear, mercurial demo set.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:31
#141
^ Exactly. Where as the chaos
^The-Frying-Pan: Exactly. Where as the chaos set outshines all of those armors in every category, and now you can just have one set of armor instead of 3 or more.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:35
#142
An open letter
Dear Nick and those other guys who aren't Nick but are still pretty cool.
I love you, and you have a wonderful game going on here. I have great respect for you and your design decisions, even though I don't always agree with them. To this day, for instance, I would still like the old shard bombs back and I think there is work to be done on the new ones as they feel pretty half-finished.
It doesn't stop me from playing the game. I'm still playing this game. I'm still bombing. I even made a guild about your new shard bombs that I don't agree with you adding because they are quite fun and I still believe you will one day get around to fixing the issues about them. When that day comes, I'll be ready.
This isn't about shard bombs though. It's about Mad Bomber. Am I? Am I a mad bomber? Naw. I'm many years too old to actually, genuinely get angry about videogames. It's fun to pretend though. But Nick. Listen. Look. I made a guild. It is a beautiful little thing called Shard Squad. Our mission, my mission, is to explore "underpowered" gear and discover secrets that noone else bothers to find because people just do the solution that more obviously gives them power. Our mission is to prove that you guys aren't actually that horrible at balancing as people make it seem.
I thought I made good progress! I discovered that Ironmight is a fine piece of armour, especially when combined with Venom Veiler. I discovered that shard bombs hold immense power which can be unlocked with a little bit of work, even though buggy hit-limits often keep them from upholding that potential. We discovered that catalyzers make alchemers look like a joke in a well-organized team. I discovered that a little bit of cleverness can make Pepperbox a fearsome force in Lockdown. I have discovered so many things about Triglav.
It's beautiful. You have made a beautiful place for me to explore, and every day I grow more optimistic that there is balance to be found in this game, if only you go out there and discover! I have a thousand hours in this game and I'm not even halfway done! There are so many swords and guns I've barely even looked at. "Somewhere in the development team", I thought, "they have a bit more clue about it than I give them credit for."
And then you do this.
Is the actual buff that big of a deal? Naw, it happened. You'll fix it somehow. The actual buff is not that big of a deal. The problem is that it happened at all, and it kind of highlights your entire development team as being completely oblivious. You could've asked literally anyone in the community if this specific buff without any other armour rebalancing taking place was a good idea. Any one of them would spend two minutes looking at the index of the armour page on the wiki. After these two minutes, they would tell you "Hey. Maybe you should rethink it? It very evidently overshadows Mad Bomber. Also, Chaos is pretty well balanced against the top line armour. There's is a lot of gear that goes completely unused such as Azure Guardian and the plate armours and I think it would be a better idea to start with those if you're going to start buffing armours."
Is it much to ask for your development team to spend two minutes on the wiki? The fact that you didn't shows a very blatant lack of care.
And that's what we are upset about.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 14:42
#143
Bye Bye Shadowsun
There was already gunners who ditched shadowsun in favor of chaos. Now there is no contest. Any good gunner is going to start saying: Why get shadowsun? Chaos is better in every way. Because if you don't get hit (which is what gunners do) then why care about defense debuffs?
If chaos' universal bonus became swords only, then it would be a great comparison to wolver. But it isn't. There is a problem if there is a gear which let's you get 6 max stats without UVs.
Gunner, swordsman and volcanic demo all have a total of 2 weapon-specific bonuses per piece, along with status resistance. That's balanced. Mad bomber has 4 weapon-specific bonuses per piece, compensated by status weakness. That's balanced too. Chaos has the same stats, along with the same amount of bonuses, but they're universal. Chaos needs to lie at a compromise between the two. Say, 3 bonuses per piece.
I own chaos. I loved it before, but it's too OP now.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 15:29
#144
@ Poopsie
"Giving MSI on chaos set, just like giving pain to, yet, another gear, mercurial demo set."
No i said, in exchange for the universal quality of the bonuses on the chaos set, the Mad Bomber set should get MSI (just an idea some people have thrown out there) or a Status Resist bonus.
If they're going to tweak the Mad Bomber set, i'm proposing that they make Chaos Set/Mad Bomber set identical defensively:
Chaos<<<<>>>>>>Mad Bomber
Normal Defense<<>>Normal Defense (even)
Elemental Defense<>Elemental Defense (even)
Universal Damage Bonus (med+med)<>Bomb Damage Bonus (med+med)
Weak to Poison, Fire, Freeze, Shock, Curse (-5) <<>> Weak to Poison, Fire, Freeze, Shock, **Curse** (-5)
Universal CTR <<>> Bomb CTR
And to make each unique:
Chaos<<<>>>Mad Bomber
Universal Bonus<<>>Med MSI or Stun Resist
*****
Another way of resolving this might be to take away the curse (or) poison weakness from the Chaos set while at the same time, removing a Med CTR bonus.
In this way, it would be identical to the Mad Bomber defensively (each would have 4 weaknesses) but the Chaos would only have Universal Damage VH and Universal Medium CTR.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 18:25
#145
@Eltia
You know, you seem to have a good ability to persuade, as well as a strong sense of balance. I may consult you in the future about things relating to bombs in my fan game. (Considering I want to make most, not ALL, bombs be one use items.)
@Mad Bomber vs. Chaos
The best solution may be to remove all of the status resists on Mad Bomber. Then instead of Curse Resist vs. Global Buff, you have Overall Status Resistance vs. Global Buff. I've seen things about fuse time decrease (FTD), but this can be detrimental to some bombing styles and techniques, like placing bombs before a fight. What about Blast Radius Increase? (BRI)
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 19:12
#146
@Autofire
If Mad had no negative status resists, why on earth would anyone use Volcanic and Bombtastic?
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 19:14
#147
@Autofire
See, I thought about that. If they removed the status on mad bomber, then there is absolutely no purpose in the game for the other bombing armors.
Also, they're not gonna make a whole new bonus (i.e FTD/BRI), not in this point of the game.
They can't completely revert Chaos back to the way it was, or else it was just a incredibly stupid move on OOO's part.
I still stick with Shidara's idea, anyway..but, you could make the debuffs high instead of med, and as others said make it just a normal armor.
Even all three of those things, I just can't see them completely reverting it. They've made some foolish decisions, but this one would just leave hundreds of people who spent more then 2.5k ce making a armor that they would never use again.
Edit: Zeddy beat me to it.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 19:38
#148
+1 Zeddy
As someone used to wearing Chaos everywhere, I think this universal +4 per piece makes things a bit too easy. I like 2 of the ideas we've discussed:
1. Nerf the cannon. (credit: Shidara)
- Make each Chaos piece give more spread-out bonuses (e.g. +1 ctr, dmg and asi and/or msi or +1 ctr and +2 dmg).
2. Buff dat glass. (credit: Malsvir-Branea)
- Make Chaos more vulnerable to damage (not statuses)(*shudders*) by eliminating or reducing part of it's defense (e.g. all of the normal, or half of both the normal and elemental).
As someone who loves their Mad Bomber, I think we need a way to set it apart from Chaos (even if it gets changed again), so I'd like to suggest the following for your consideration:
Change Mad Bomber's defense from elemental to Shadow. While on its own this change may not be enough to justify getting both Chaos and Mad Bomber, I feel it is a good step in the right direction. Plus, I really want some shadow def bomber armor.
Thoughts?
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 22:33
#149
Anyone come up with new armor
Anyone come up with new armor combinations with the kat masks?
@Pherro Chaos's description deals with the elements, the reason why it's still elemental as opposed to shadow.
jeu, 01/31/2013 - 21:35
#150
Why....
Changing the damage bonus from medium to high is useless. With the mad bomber set as is nitrome,DBB, shards and other non status bombs are already at max damage. Which leaves either increasing movement speed (which then makes merc useless) or increasing its defences which wont help the issue of making the mad bomber set useful over the chaos set.
What could be done is to increase the damage cap for bombs, which would then allow the idea of mad bomber suit to have high dmg per piece to be useful. Then again the curse res might be useful if they add some sort of shadow nitrome that can do curse or something like that.
But lets be honest here, 000 hates bombers, like the time when dark retribution used to be an amazing bomb until they nerfed it. Although this new upcoming sprite update looks cool if they could just buff bomber in an appropriate way that would be awesome. I mean look how useless bombastic is.
PS: To upgrade the mad bomber suits defences is to not make it a glass cannon any more, which goes against the logic of creating a glass cannon.
Some of you guys talk like OOO is neglecting bombers by buffing Chaos and not Mad Bomber. Guys, Chaos's bonuses are universal, i.e., bombers can benefit from them too. I'm not saying that Chaos is balanced or unbalanced; I just wanted to clear up that weird misconception.