https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkB_kx1fvrxadExEQ2pMSWNCN3N...
Ash of Agni in Lockdown from -4 to +6 resistance. Thanks to Qwote, Tohlevi, Dutch-Oven, Krakob, Echoez, Darkbrady and a lot of others for helping me with this.
Bopp, could I ask you for measurement on depth 25? I know it seems like an odd place for it, but that's the Lockdown depth and I'd like to have some direct comparisons between enemy resistances and player resistances.
Yeah, I can do that, probably today.
Edit: Depth 25, Scarlet Fortress-type, poison theme I think (not fire). By the way, my swords and bomb have different levels of damage bonus. That doesn't matter, does it (gulp)?
Ash of Agni vs.
kat: 46
jelly: 72
gun puppy, wolver:64
Combuster vs.
kat: 60
jelly: 85
gun puppy, wolver: 81
Furious Flamberge vs.
kat: 53
jelly: 85
gun puppy: 71
chromalisk: 62
Awesome. I'm going to go get AoA numbers, myself.
Edit Beautiful! Thanks!
If I'm reading these numbers right:
Kats, gremlins and fiends have +5 fire resistance.
Jellies took 72 damage from fire while -2 resistance is 71 on the LD numbers, so that's something like -2.1? Odd. Will investigate further.
Gun puppies and wolvers have 0 resistance.
Chromas seem to have +2.5?
The difference for combuster between jelly and kat was 25 damage and for Ash of Agni it was 26 damage. From this I'm assuming fire resistance deducts damage linearly just like defence.
depth 25, Clockworks Tunnels-style, freeze theme, elite difficulty (as were the my tests above)
Ash of Agni vs.
silkwing: 46
wisp, shankle, howlitzer: 64
lumber: 72
zombie: 88
ice jelly: 99
Combuster vs.
silkwing: 60
wisp, shankle, howlitzer: 81
lumber: 99
zombie: 109
ice jelly: 109
Furious Flamberge vs.
silkwing: 53
wisp, shankle, howlitzer: ?
lumber: 85
zombie: 102
ice jelly: 109
Almost done. I make a few logical leaps and assume monsters have resistances in intervals of 2.5. (Medium + half a low.)
Missing minor and strong vs chromas.
That 72 damage with Ash vs lumbers confuses me. Maybe damage rounds up on monsters but down on knights?
Also of interest is that there seems to be a max cap on fire damage.
Edit: EUREKA!
Look at the 0 resist damage for enemies and then compare them to Lockdown damage!
Damage vs Gun puppies (0 resist):
Minor: 64
Moderate: 71
Strong: 81
Damage for minor fire in Lockdown:
0 resist: 64
-2 resist: 71
-4 resist: 81
I believe these numbers speak for themselves.
i get to use my driver?
Now that the numbers have spoken for themselves for several hours, can we speak for them a bit?
Knights' fire resistances are determined by armor. Monster fire resistances are like this:
I don't know how a monster's being fire-themed enters into this. Does it just decrease the likelihood of ignition (which is a separate calculation)? Does freeze theme have an effect, or is that just for jellies?
The ingredients for the damage calculation seem to be:
It's that last part that I doubt now. If you look again at the data on monster resistances (post #3, or the bottom of the spreadsheet in post #6), you see that 2.5 points of monster fire resistance don't produce a consistent drop in fire damage. Either we have the point rankings messed up, or resistance does not cause a proportional decrease in fire damage?
Have a look at the fire damage for Lockdown again.
All the way from -3 to +6, there's a consistent gap of 7 damage per 2 resistance. Then from -3 to -4, it's suddenly 7 damage per 1 resistance. I can not explain why this happens, but my theory is that it'll stay 7 damage per extra negative resistance until the damage cap of 109. That makes it consistent with the values gathered from monsters.
A low penalty is -1. -2 is a medium penalty, as seen on Chaos.
I think enemies don't necessarily adhere to the minor (0), moderate (+2), strong (+4) status system that our weapons do. Drakon also use distinct values from these.
Themed enemies should be totally immune to the their own status (except for gremlin knockers). I don't know if this is achieved by giving them a very large amount of resistance or by setting a flag somehow. On the test server, drakon and chaotic haze was able to set slags on fire. I'm not sure which one that indicates quite yet.
The damage is definitely dependent on depth, by the way. Otherwise, Ash of Agni would only have one damage number per enemy per tier, right?
Right, thanks for clarifying damage's dependence on depth, not just tier. But do you see my point, that fire damage against monsters does not seem to fall into any arithmetic sequence? For example, look the Combuster part of my post #3 above:
kat (+5) incurs 60
gun puppy, wolver (+0): 81
jelly (-2.5): 85
Comparing this to your spreadsheet...something is weird. Supposedly Combuster does strong fire. And the kat and gun puppy figures agree. But the jelly number just looks like moderate fire. And actually the whole strong column in your spreadsheet is funky. There is a huge jump in damage from 0 to -2.5. The jump is about twice as big as a regular jump. Are we missing a level of fire resistance in there?
Let's break it down to steps. Examine the lockdown damages once again, and "invert" the resistance values. I will refer to minor fire against someone with -4 resistance as being inflicted with +4 fire.
We've already established that going from +3 to +4 fire incurs a large jump in damage. All the way from -6 to +3 fire increases by 3.5 damage per stage of fire. Then from +3 and onwards, we start gaining 7 damage per stage of fire until we reach our cap of 109 damage.
So let's just count upwards.
-1 fire:: 60 damage (strong fire vs kat)
0 fire: 64 (minor fire vs gun puppy)
+1 fire: 67
+2 fire: 71 (moderate fire vs gun puppy)
+3 fire: 74
+4 fire: 81. This is where each stage of fire gets twice as effective. (strong fire vs gun puppy)
+5 fire: 88 (minor fire vs zombie)
+6 fire: 95
+7 fire: 102 (moderate fire vs zombie)
+6.5 fire (strong fire vs jelly): 99, right between +6 and +7
Edit: Actually. Hm. That's not consistent with ice cubes and Ash of Agni. I guess ice cubes have -6.5 resistance then?
The good news is I've filled out my chart for fire.
The bad news is that freeze carries all the same complexities, and I can't even use Lockdown to gather thawing damage.
Gremlins have no weakness or resistance to freeze, by the way. Kats, on the other hand, have an amount of resistance. For the moment I'm working with the assumption that this resistance is 5.
This data is over a year old, but might help out in getting your bearings in freeze. Not sure if it has changed since then, but check out the shivermist tab. The levels of resistance that I noticed with shivermist thaw is grouped from low resistance to high resistance:
Lichen
Jelly/Toxic Chromalisk Devilite
Quicksilver Gremlin/Mender Gun Puppy/Retr/Scut/Lumber Greaver/Wing/Trojan
MKnight
Zombies Oiler Wolver Kat
So slightly less complicated than fire.
Also, the Venom Veiler tab has numbers for hitting a poisoned monster with a Levi. It too is... complicated.
Beautiful, you're my new hero.
I estimate Lichen resistance to be at -5, Devilite to be -2.5, Quicksilvers to be at -1.5, most things to be at 0, Mechas to be at 2.5 and Wolvers to be at 5.
That's consistent with the data and results from fire damage.
As soon as I get some more datapoints for freeze damage vs mecha knights, I can fill the chart in completely. (Scroll down.)
That's gonna be pretty tough to gather with all the gates' stratum 2 being freeze.
I wasn't able to confirm it today, but we still have that weird "jelly takes 85 fire damage from Combuster at depth 25" issue, right? Is it possible that some of the Combuster charge explosions do strong fire, and others (maybe the last ones) just moderate fire?
And here are some other nuisances. I'm comparing Combuster charge vs. Fang of Vog first stroke at depth 25.
* lichen: 109 vs. 102
* giant lichen colony: 81 vs. 71
If we take your chart as given, then Fang's first stroke is not strong fire, but just moderate fire? Maybe just the charge is strong fire. Am I supposed to know this?
As we all know, the descriptions in the weapon summaries are not detailed or precise. Aside from understanding statuses, maybe this thread can help us put more detail into the weapons' wiki pages.
I had missed the jelly thing. Did you double check that? I've never seen moderate fire come out of combuster before.
Fang's first stroke is moderate fire, yes. Only the charge is strong. The same is true for Plague Needle. Triglav also does moderate freeze rather than strong like the tooltip says, for both the second stroke and the charge. That'd be all the status inconsistensies I know of.
Updated. Draycos lent me some assistance in filling out D25 numbers with his Drakon. His was maxed (Meteoric, Backfire, Explosive), my own had no points in fire increase at all. These are our numbers:
me
46 fireball vs kats
46 firestorm vs kats
72 firestorm vs jelly
74 flame barier vs jelly
57 flame barrier vs chroma
65 flame barrier vs puppy
64 firestorm vs puppy
draycos
57 firebolt vs kat
48 flame barrier vs kats
51 firestorm vs kats
92 firebolt vs jelly
81 firestorm vs jelly
65 firebolt for chroma
60 firestorm vs chroma
55 firestorm vs chroma
74 firebolt vs gun puppy
69 firestorm vs gun puppy
From this I conclude:
I'll get back to this when I do get the fire maxed on my skills to check if any of those ultimates affects Drakon's fire damage.
It seems like the statuses from Chaotic Haze are moderate (2 strength). At least the fire and freeze parts are.
Also, a level 1 Drakon will still inflict T3 fire on T3 enemies, unlike something like Firecracker or Fiery Vaporizer. I'm not sure why this is.
I've updated the title of the thread as this research is going to dive deeper than just fire.
Imagine if each arbitrary numbers were just punched in as fire damage values against each enemy. Would be funny, but you are making great progress here. Sorry I can't really contribute, all I can say is that I hate fire :P
Today we figured out poison's attack debuff. Me and my little helpers (thanks to Soral and Dutch-Oven) ran into 8-1 Weight of Darkness with various amounts of resistance, got ourselves poisoned and attacked a homing Howlitzer to get our weapon's pure damage number. I compared the debuff with how much the same debuff was in Lockdown (thanks, Qwote!) and figured out a few things.
Here's my poorly documented notes.
I added poison attack debuff amounts to the big chart of status effects. (Scroll to the bottom.)
Conclusions
I'll do defence reduction at some other point.
I also entered values for defence reduction. While I haven't done extensive testing, simply halving the amount compared to offence reduction fits perfectly with what is already known.
It's going to be tricky figuring out which enemies are resistant to how much poison, so I'm not going to bother with that for a while. People are free to chip in with data for this though.
A correction: Flame barrier's fire actually starts at -1 and gains +0.5 for each point in high heat, ending at +0.5.
Thanks to Soral and his fresh Drakon for helping me discover this.
>Themed enemies should be totally immune to the their own status (except for gremlin knockers). I don't know if this is achieved by giving them a very large amount of resistance or by setting a flag somehow. On the test server, drakon and chaotic haze was able to set slags on fire. I'm not sure which one that indicates quite yet.
They're both are and not. Apparently when target gets hit with attack that status, and if its right type, game just skips status dealing. And apparently quills and haze and stuff was getting people poisoned and on fire because of dev mistake, directly placing status condition instead/without checking for target's status resistance. This also could explain why even Shock-type Mecha Knights shock themselves
I'm getting my chart filled in, little by little.
One thing I noticed, which I find it odd that I haven't noticed before, is that it's possible for an entity to catch a status they are already afflicted with. We already knew that standing inside of a haze will refresh the timer of the status, but did you know the initial effect of the status will apply as well? What this means is that enemies standing inside of an Ash of Agni will actively receive fire damage faster than if they were to simply be on fire.
Standing inside of a Voltaic Tempest, similarly, will more actively disable and damage you as well.
It seems like Ash of Agni will "override" Fiery Vaporizer, presumably because T3 fire is stronger than T2 fire. However, Firecracker will also override Fiery Vaporizer, so status strength appears to take priority over status tier.
Going back to posts #8 and #9: This thread explicitly says that status-themed enemies should be immune to their statuses. If you've managed to set a fire zombie on fire, you might want to tell the developers, even if it's two years late and on a test server.
By the way, the fact that I've cited is not very interesting, but the rest of that announcement is fascinating. You can actually see the developers polishing crucial rules and design elements just before launch. (I've been digging around in SK "archival material" like this, for a separate project of mine.)
I've been doing the same kind of digging for the thread I made five minutes ago, actually! Hexing Haze and Drakon setting fire to slags was reported and fixed during the test pretty quick.
That thread you linked is something of a favourite of mine because it's such a good clue to how defence works. Or that is, that there is such a thing as monster defence rather than weapons getting a "damage boost" against weak targets.
Your calling one of the best bombs crap?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
Are you referring to the original post, where Zeddy uses the word "crap" to refer to how complicated fire damage numbers are? He's not saying the bomb is crap. He's saying that the rule is crap (really meaning, surprisingly complicated).
Biohazard's basic shots inflict minor poison, not moderate. Only the charges inflict moderate.
The same appears to be true for the basic shots on Polaris, although both the expanded shots and the charges do inflict moderate.
Just a heads up that I moved my chart of status damage. The google document that had all the weapon damage was getting pretty cramped.
I've edited all the links in the topic to reflect this.
My status studies have been continuing, and you can hear all about it one status at a time in The Arsenal Podcast episodes going on these weeks. We've already covered fire, freeze and poison.
Curse
As for what hasn't already been mentioned here and can't be found easily in the charts, curse damage is identical to freeze damage. I found that out today after way too much dealing with jerks in Lockdown not letting me science in peace.
You may also not know that curse operates on a randomness factor when it comes to monsters. It's not tied to a specific attack they do, it's just a random roll every time the monsters make a move. Gremlins have -2.5 curse resistance. Fiends have 5 curse resistances. Undeads are immune. Lumbers and Trojans don't take curse damage for no readily apparent reason. Anything else have no curse resistance or weakness.
I'd like to start putting the data from my charts, such as status damage numbers and enemy resistances up on the wiki in places.
What's the policy of extrapolated data on the wiki? So far I've been operating on the assumption that it's "Don't", but some of these status effects we'll never be able to find concrete evidence for, and I'm very, very certain about most of the data present.
Additionally, how do we present the many permutations of damage that can come from, say, fire?
I'll start with putting up T3 shock damage, at least. Those have all been manually measured.
I do believe in maintaining a clear division between observed data and inferred conclusions. To be honest, your mixing of the two has always bothered me, even if the conclusions are almost certainly correct. How about you mark extrapolated "data" with asterisks?
About fire, how many permutations are there? Strength of source, strength of target, ...?
Well, you can see them on the chart. In theoretical space, there's every half-value between -6 and +8, (so -6, -5.5, -5, ... 7, 7.5, 8).
In practical space, knights have no way to inflict below -5, and a few values are missing between there. Enemies have resistance going every 2.5 damage numbers except for when they don't.
Uually there's -5, -2.5, 0, 2.5, +5, but you have special cases like ice cubes with -6.5 resistance, and Quicksilver who for some reason have 1.5 freeze resistance.
Then there are sources.
Sources of fire from weapons have strengths of 0, 2 and 4. Vials have 2, 4 and 6 (I think?). Drakon has 3, 0.5 and 1.5 but two of his skill can have the fire strength upgraded, where Firebolt goes 1, 2 and 3 while Firestorm goes 0.5, 1 and 1.5.
This isn't getting into Fang of Vog's self-fire that doesn't follow any rules about how fire works (made stronger with damage boosts, way stronger than +8 fire if you wear Chaos), but thankfully you cannot inflict the self-fire on enemies and so wouldn't be included in any charts I care to make.
So for a comprehensive list of all fire damage numbers that can be found in practice, you would need to record the following for each of the depths where one records things:
I suppose I'd present it as seven tables:
Minor (+0), Moderate (+2), Strong (+4), Firebolt (+3), Flame Barrier (+0.5), Firestorm (+1.5), T3 Fire vial (+6)
against the six categories of enemies:
Ice Cubes (-6.5), Zombies (-5), Lumbers (-2.5), Most enemies (0), Chromas (+2.5), Gremlins (+5)
There's also the problem that T3 fire vials can only be found and used in T3, so you wouldn't be able to get a complete set of data on it.
Thanks a bunch to Fangel for flopping around the Clockworks for me sleep bombing and sleep vialing every enemy accessible.
Chart of all status-related stuff as always available here
Cliff notes version:
It is not yet known if LD opponents healed by sleep affects your final damage numbers.
It's a good idea. I'll try to contribute some measurements of Furious Flamberge, Combuster, Fang of Vog, and fire vials, mainly on depths 19 and 24.
I have Ash of Agni too, but that seems pretty much measured? I don't have Drakon, Magma Driver, or Volcanic Pepperbox.
Edit: Does this sort of thing help? Should I continue?
Fire damage data from depth 19 Perimeter Promenade:
Fang of Vog (strong fire)
vs. lumber: 57
vs. gun puppy, scuttlebot, retrode: 48
vs. thwacker: 36
Furious Flamberge (moderate fire)
same as Fang of Vog, but could not proc against thwackers
Ash of Agni (minor fire)
wiki page fire damage data confirmed again