Spiral Knights - Lets (try to) compile this mess of opinions about Mad Bomber and Chaos into a single topic.

Lets (try to) compile this mess of opinions about Mad Bomber and Chaos into a single topic.

22 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]

Di, 09/17/2013 - 23:06

Etharaes

Ok, so we all know that the current state of mad bomber and the chaos set is quite imbalanced. If you don't know why, click these links and see for yourself (the helmets are identical to their respective armors).

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Mad_Bomber_Mask
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Chaos_Cowl

There has been many many MANY topics about these two pieces of armor and what we do with them. So let's be a good community and round up all the ideas for what we do about this. We can make a poll about this if you want but I probably wont maintain it. I could try though. I will just list these ideas:

1. Revert chaos set back to it's previous state.
2. (Chaos Set) Global CTR and damage bonus medium per piece becomes CTR, damage bonus, and ASI low per piece. Optional to include MSI low per piece too.
3. (Chaos Set) Global CTR and damage bonus medium per piece becomes CTR low and damage bonus medium OR CTR med and damage bonus low per piece.
4. (Chaos Set) Global CTR and damage bonus very high (both pieces altogether) becomes CTR high and damage bonus high (both pieces altogether).
5. Remove chaos set's normal defence and/or max out status weakness.
6. (Mad Bomber) CTR and damage bonus med per piece becomes CTR med and damage bonus high per piece. (A chaos nerf goes along with this)
7. Add two new armor sets that are identical to mad bomber stat-wise, except for the fact that they apply the buff to swords/guns respectively. Names open for suggestions. A chaos nerf is implemented along with this.
8. Add some new mechanic/bonus that is essentially asi for bombs and give mad bomber bomb asi.
9. Change chaos' bonuses to sword and gun only.
10. (Chaos Set) Change the ctr bonus to asi.
11. (Chaos Set) Change the elemental defence to piercing.

These are all the ideas I can think of at the moment. Suggest new ideas and I will add them to the list. I have put up ideas which honestly I find stupid, but have been suggested by someone else and I suppose I should add them to this topic regardless of my opinion.

~Etha

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 00:34

Zeddy

We could also turn Mad into Chaos.

Mad Bomber
DMG +4 to everything
CTR +4 to everything
also has curse weakness now

Chaos
DMG +4 to everything
ASI +4 to everything

At least we'd have two full sets of armour better than everything else rather than just the one. Oh and:

All other armour
Can be used to feed your sprite to instantly fill their heat.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 06:35

Waffleconecake

my thoughts

We could give chaos cloak piercing defense instead of elemental and make fire and shock resistant even lower.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 08:27

Battlegrinder

Pretend I wrote something clever here

I was thinking that keeping it's stats the same but knocking it's defense down to the level of a 3* armor might work.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 11:09

Whimsicality

Chaos fits its niche perfectly. Mad Bomber needs a buff. Bombastic could use some love, too.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 12:09

Sereos

Both should get a defense/health debuff. If someone wants to play a glass cannon then let them do that.
Also, the Chaos Set shouldn't have such universal buffs, they should be for only one type of weapon.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 20:16

Shadowstarkirby

My opinion on the matter is that...

Chaos does not need a nerf, it's a glass cannon set, which means you trade all or most your defense for extreme offense. Just because Mad bomber was cool before Chaos was really isn't a justified reason for a nerf (that's all I'm getting from all the threads I've been seeing). There are silly people lurking about who even want it changed back to it's original state? Why? People back then didn't give it a second glance and now that it's all the rage because veterans have gradually gotten good enough in the game to be able to use it (and this is a solid amount of the community mind you, I don't need math to tell me this), people want it nerfed to being awful again.

I love this set to death! The weak status resistance and all cause it to force me to keep on my toes in T3 cause the moment I'm shocked, I'm left open for a whole second each trigger, which I think is anywhere from 4-6 times. Frozen, I'm stuck for 8 seconds and open for more freeze locks which is guaranteed death. If I'm on fire--you get it, the status debuffs are a truly balanced trade off in my eyes. I think many people are taking these weaknesses for granted. It hurts, you just can't make mistakes willy nilly like you can with other armors which do help defensively in PvE.

Mad Bomber is just not great, I'm sure the devs didn't think that this single glass cannon set should be restricted to bombers only which is why Chaos is as it is now. It was designed for everyone and everything, given you have the skills to handle the risks. Bombing armor as a whole is simply weak. Nothing but elemental defense which is unjust to bombers whom are a rarity to find in the game. What could be done to Mad Bomber is be made to be on par like how gunslinger armor was changed to be with swords; give it appropriate defense (Shadow and x2 max resistances?) and DMG Med per piece. Yes, that wouldn't make it be as strong as it used to, but you'll have defense which would be something a lot of bombers would be thankfully for. Change Bombastic to piercing as well. Mercurial Demo pieces should be DMG Med per piece instead of low. There you go, wouldn't that be okay and less disruptive without hurting those who actually like Chaos, like myself and many other people?

If Chaos MUST be nerfed for reasons beyond my understanding, just remove the elemental defense and cut down health on each piece by 2, so you only gain +6 from instead of the usual +10. Then constructs and gremlins would really hurt too, and people will still use it. Leave the offensive bonuses alone.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 20:36

Dementia-Praecox

There is another way.

I suggest we nerf Chaos down to:
Universal Damage Bonus Low
Universal Charge Time Reduction Low
Universal Attack Speed Increase Low

Per piece, of course. This will still make Chaos a force to be reckoned with without overshadowing Mad Bomber and without causing Chaos-users to scream bloody murder as much as if the buff was simply reversed. This would also make the set a true Jack-of-all-Trades Glass Cannon, since it will lend itself to basically any playstyle.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 21:21

Etharaes

I'll post my opinions now

IMO, a nerf to the defence of the chaos set is stupid. WAY stupid. The main point of the nerf would be so that mad bomber is a viable choice over chaos if you go full bombs. And honestly, nerfing chaos' defence will not see any more use of mad bomber. If you have one glass cannon set which has more offense and less defence than the other option, everyone will still pick the more offensive option. Why? Because if someone is going to use a glass cannon, you are past the point of caring about defence. This is what I want:

Chaos set: Universal asi, damage bonus and ctr low pr piece. (I wouldlove msi low too but apparently doing this would make chaosmore OP than it is. Eh, atleast it wouldn't b strictly better than Mad Bomber).
Mad Bomber: Bomb damage bonus high and ctr med per piece. (Yay maxed out bombs without trinkets)

Two new sets are created:
Demented Gunslinger: Same as Mad Bomber stat wise, but bonuses for guns.
Rabid Wolver: Same as Mad Bomber stat wise, but bonuses for swords.

Now that I think about it, the 4 universal lows idea is pretty good. It won't directly outclass Mad Bomber, but (most) people will still hink it is as OP as before.

And before you say anything, I own the chaos set. Perfect Mask of Seerus, Chaos owl, and Chaos Cloak are my only 5* armors. I have owned it since September 2012.

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 21:41

Etharaes

@Shadowstarkirby Intentional doublepost here

Your suggested change for mad bomber is actually the worst suggestion I've seen. Yes, shadow defence will be what bombers have been asing for, but not the bombers who crafted the mad bomber set. If OOO implements that they will basically be saying:

"Hey, you know that glass cannon set you crafted? Well, we made an armor set that is like it but better in every way. Instead of changing the super OP set we created, we instead decided to completely change the set you have by changing it from a defensive armor set to a defensive armor set. If you want to have a glass cannon set again, you will have to spend lots of time and resources making it because we won't reimburse you.

We will tell you that we may change this based on your feedback, but we never have done that before no matter how much complaint we've had, so don't get your hopes up.

Thanks for being so co-operative."

Also kirby, if they wanted to make a glass cannon playstyle available to everyone, what they could've done is make a gun version and sword version of mad bomber.

~Etha

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 22:18

#10

Aneurysms

wop -- let people clone themselves, I say! Resist peer pressure!

If I throw in unconfirmed statistics that most veterans use health trinkets anyway, I would agree with nerfing chaos' health bonus. Nerfing chaos by a pinch in one place or another might influence players to invest in other specialized 5* armour for non-cosmetic reasons. I doubt it though... That's understandable that skilled people who are comfortable with the chaos set will make it. Why stop them? I like Dementia's suggestion, too.

random thing to consider, how easy should it be to max out your offenses? 'Craft a chaos set, and WOOSH your needs for huge offensive power are nearly complete? /shrug

Also, I don't dislike chaos 'cos I have cloak I like to pair up with helms depending on the level, but it is too similar to the mad bomber set to let the MB set stand out as a "mad" bomber's set (jebuscripes, how do I not repetition). It's narrow minded to think of just nerfing chaos to make the sets different... 'might be better to just add variety to the bomber sets.

...and other suggestions to add to the list, if I had any ounce of influence to differ the sets:
1) drop CTR med from each piece in the chaos set, add ASI low/med to each instead; because ASI sounds and looks and lets the player act more chaotically OP, and because I ignorantly think people craft it more for the the dmg bonus than the ctr anyway
2) chaos cowl to have CTR med & DMG low, cloak to have CTR low & DMG med; to nudge people into aggressively building themselves to be OP to still invest in UVs and trinkets
3) drop normal defense from both sets, chaos to have split elemental and shadow defense, mad b. to have split elemental and piercing defense; because the bomber sets all look really comfy and poofy like the jelly line and crack-logically deserve a bomber line with piercing defense, and what if the mad bomber set was just made of highly flammable, static-harboring, thick, modified mattress foam and this is just a silly reason

Do, 09/19/2013 - 00:10

#11

Shadowstarkirby

@Etharaes

First of all, just take it easy and be civil, I'm just adding my 2 cents on it. :)

I'm getting from you Etharaes is, "Mad Bomber MUST be used over Chaos if you're a bomber cause....you're a full bomber and most definitely deserve the best offensive buffs!" So I guess Swords and Guns can't get the same treatment? I mean sure, you could throw in two new armors, I wouldn't mind that whatsoever, but where would that leave Chaos? To be underpowered again. If you really are past the point of defense, just use Chaos which is why it's there now. You seem to take pride in having that and Seerus as your only armor pieces.

I don't really understand the 'must' of having Mad Bomber being more viable than Chaos, why can't it be on par with the rest of the other bomber sets all bombers should own starting out? Having a decent arsenal to protect themselves against everything like every other class does seems like a good idea. The defense change + (you never mentioned the health, unsure if you missed this, but I agree the remove of elemental defense alone would be a weak nerf) health would actually be pretty significant on one's survivability, you'll have to explain to me why it's "Stupid. WAY stupid" if this would be implemented with the Mad Bomber rework I mentioned.

In my opinion, if it's reverted back to being low DMG + CTR with ASI (and MSI I suppose) low, it'd be too weak to justify the weaknesses. If this were how it were changed, I wouldn't be using Chaos anymore and go back to my other armors because having one piece of Chaos would no longer viable and and full set isn't worth it because you could slap on just about any specialized weapon items and always do better defensively and offensively with that set (Jack of all trades is rarely a good idea). It's not like you're abusing all three types of weapons in your hands all at the same time, majority of people I've met carry two types in general areas of the clockworks, three if you're in an arena, danger mission, or boss stratum. The swordie line and gunslinger lines weren't a means to an end with the introduction of buffed Chaos, they show incredible use for many people still. Bomber line however only has two useful sets, now one of those is just overshadowed. Bomber armor line obviously needs a buff if now only 1/4 is truly useful, that being Volcanic Demo which should be kept as it is.

About my idea on Mad Bomber's change, why is that such a bad idea just cause it's no longer what it used to be used for? Things go through reworks all the time, this just can't be the same cause it's not what you originally used it for? Well okay, think about it on the Chaos side after it got buffed. It's the glass cannon set, I crafted it JUST for that reason to because I've become pretty good at the game. If your DMG + CTR + ASI (+MSI) low change swoops in, It'd be changed to a really poor performance Jack of all Trades set, that isn't what 'I' crafted it for, is it? Does that mean I get to object after putting in my, "lots of time and resources making it", which is in reality, less than a week of casually playing the game on and off a couple days running FSC or arcade and...what, the post battle sprite update's craft costs that can at most reach 300 CE if you find orbs and fire crystals? Sorry, I kinda found that quote to be nothing more than an exaggeration, no intention to offend. I do have remorse towards bombers, but I don't find Mad Bomber alone to be justifiable for a nerf whatsoever. ^^

Mi, 09/18/2013 - 23:39

#12

Etharaes

title goes here

@Blind-Frog

Dementia-Praecox's suggestion, along with the first two options you suggest to add to the list were all added before you and dementia posted. IMO, a change to the defense of the sets is pretty random and will have basically no effect whatsoever. In addition, I think that giving chaos shadow defence would actually make it even better. And if bombers need piercing defense, what is the logic slapping it on a glass cannon armor?

Honestly, I would really hate seeing ctr bonus be removed from the chaos set altogether, it was actually the main reason I crafted chaos in the first place.

Edit: I can't type fast enough. I will add a response to Kirby a bit later.

~Etha

Do, 09/19/2013 - 00:55

#13

Etharaes

@Kirby

OK. I came at you rather ragey. I'm sorry. Just to clarify, the reason why I said my only armors were the chaos set and seerus mask was to stop the "you wouldn't want chaos nerfed if you owned the armor" argument. I didn't take time to look at the other side of the coin about the resources thing.

I agree that bombers need more defense types BUT I would rather new alchemy paths be created rather than existing options replaced.

I didn't (or atleast didn't mean to) say that mad bomber must be more viable than chaos, just that mad bomber must be more viable than chaos when using bombs. Flexibility in itself is a bonus, which is why mad bomber should be better than chaos when using bombs. Chaos gives you bonuses to guns AND swords AND bombs, whereas mad bomber only gives bonuses to bombs. Therefore, shouldn't the bonuses mad bomber gives to bombs be more than the bonuses chaos grants to bombs? If you don't see why this should be, then you're a lost cause. If you do, then great.

I firmly believe that if we are going to buff mad bomber/nerf chaos we must change the offensive bonuses. I have outlined this before. I honestly don't think that we should simply buff mad bomber and call it done, because chaos is also OP compared to many other armors in this game, even if mad bomber being the most prominent example.

Chaos gives way more buffs than any other armor set. It gives a damage boost to swords, guns, and bombs, and a ctr med boost to swords, guns and bombs, for a total of 12 levels of bonuses. Most people counter this argument by saying: "People don't use all 12 of those buffs/people usually only use 2 weapon types." But if you used all three weapon types, even at different times, you would have to make 3 armor sets. With chaos, you can just use the one set for anything.

People, please don't try to say: "most people don't do x". Just because 'most people' don't take advantage of alchemer ricochets to OHKO enemies at a distance doesn't stop the fact from it being OP.

~Etha

Do, 09/19/2013 - 01:28

#14

Aneurysms

wop, 'can't make all people happy all the time.

@Etharaes
Nnnnnnn-no, I don't read how my suggestions for chaos nerfs are exactly like any'f the ones already in your list. o.0

'True that, that slapping random defenses on them would be illogical and have little benefit (other than blasting jelly turrets, but that's a personal problem) -- but I like the idea of quirkifying the sets somehow. Aren't all/most helms/armor made quirky to get players to experiment and personalize? Buffing things make clones and newbies in clones' clothing, and nerfing... seems to upset people. Giving them other defenses is useless, but it's something so that chaos wouldn't be exactly like mad bomber but simply better because Versatility. It's like mad bomber was turned into a bomber's collectible piece that other people already have in the form of the chaos set. But, oh well. I can't tell if there's a need to make them different, if there's a need to change how players are using/choosing these gear, but I do want to see MB made different.

Or nerf chaos... by a bit. Oh boy, that won't happen anytime soon. At all. I think. Aheh. Oh well.

Wait, what kind of problem is this mad/chaos thing about? Is this aesthetically displeasing that chaos and mad are too similar, or is this an imbalance problem we see, or-?

Do, 09/19/2013 - 06:59

#15

Whimsicality

When you choose to limit yourself to one style of gameplay, you are already asking for trouble. This is why global/ versatile sets are just better than strict specialized sets.

That being said, buff Mad Bomber already

Do, 09/19/2013 - 09:58

#16

Zeddy

I see people claim Bombastic is underpowered. It's not. It has the exact stats of skolver except it has elemental defence instead of piercing. Sure, the armour is largely, practically useless but that's only because damage bonuses alone aren't worth a lot on bombs compared to CTR. That's not a problem with Bombastic, that's a problem with bombs not having a regular attack. It goes beyond armour balance and cannot be fixed within that realm.
Anyone think Skolver needs a buff? No? Would anyone think skolver needs a buff if it had elemental defence instead of piercing? No? Then Skolver and Bombastic are not overpowered. Let's claim they're balanced for the moment.
Accepting that Bombastic is balanced, we'll find Mad to be balanced as well. It has CTR med in addition to Bombastic's DMG med. What's a reasonable price for it? You can't just nix the freeze resistance, that's just make Mad a whole lot better than Bombastic in everything but freeze areas, and even then freeze resistance is pretty pointless. There needs to be negative stat resists so that Mad is less defensive than Bombastic in all situations.
Now that we've concluded Mad as being balanced, I think we can all agree that Chaos is overpowered, since it has 3 times the offensive bonuses of Mad.
We can now, using basic logic, determine that Chaos, being overpowered, needs a nerf. There aren't really other ways to fix things being overpowered.

Do, 09/19/2013 - 10:08

#17

Khamsin

" Would anyone think skolver

" Would anyone think skolver needs a buff if it had elemental defence instead of piercing? No? "

Would it need to be buffed? Maybe not. Would it be as popular as it is now? Definitely not.

People claim Bombastic is underpowered because either the elemental defense or the freeze resistance is a dump stat. Skolver works because there are two different freeze/pierce end game content dungeons and it is also a very potent combination in PvP. There are zero instances where elemental and freeze work well together.

I think you forget back in the day Skolver wasn't really that popular. It was mostly Vog Cubs running around before Lockdown, Shadow Lairs, and Prestige Missions.

Do, 09/19/2013 - 10:47

#18

Zeddy

@Khamsin

"There are zero instances where elemental and freeze work well together."

Yeah, noone's ever complained about Silversaps before. Or the entire arcade being freeze-based. And it's not like the elemental defence was a major contributing factor to Vog Cub being popular since nobody cares about gun puppy bullets, rockets, mecha knights, and gremlins, found everywhere. It's not like Alchemers, Argent Peacemaker, Brandishes, Warmaster Rocket Hammer and Polaris are abundant in Lockdown or anything. In fact, does that mode feature any piercing weapons of note outside of Flourish? It's not like shock spams deal two to three times more damage against you if you have no elemental defence. It's not like if you encounter a bomber in LD and noone on your team has freeze resistance, they're going to bring out shivermist buster and your team will be doomed.

Zero instances indeed.

I think you forget back in the day Skolver wasn't really that popular. It was mostly Vog Cubs running around before Lockdown, Shadow Lairs, and Prestige Missions. Piercing defence being a dump stat was a large part of this.

Do, 09/19/2013 - 10:55

#19

Khamsin

"Zero instances indeed." Glad

"Zero instances indeed."

Glad we agree on that. For a second there I thought you were trying to argue that Silversaps are equivalent to multiple boss strata, shadow lairs, prestige missions, or PvP.

Do, 09/19/2013 - 11:12

#20

Little-Juances

But that's a temporary solution. What are we gonna do on 2020, when OOO releases more content?
When Vanaduke gets replaced by Freezeduke?

Do, 09/19/2013 - 11:26

#21

Thunder-The-Bright

multiple boss strata,
freeze and elemental are abundant. too much. I'm desperatly trying to heat my DBB but I only get construct and freeze. also boss strata are not ice themed. those are the next one"s".

shadow lairs,
piercing and freeze is only in the IQP. others are piercing-poison, elemental-fire and shadow-curse. and yeah, that's the easiest one.

prestige missions,
I guess you mean HoL. a single danger mission. you know, other danger missions are not freeze themed, and the other missions you can play are randomized.

or PvP.
/facepalm
"It's not like Alchemers, Argent Peacemaker, Brandishes, Warmaster Rocket Hammer and Polaris are abundant in Lockdown or anything."
also freeze dealing weapons are elemental and normal only.

also we are talking about piercing. I mean, jellies and beasts. those are pretty easy. yeah, I had some problems with ice lizards before, but I learned to cut the tall grass.

Do, 09/19/2013 - 18:19

#22

Zeddy

I don't know about you, man, but I fight Silversaps on a far more regular basis than I run Ice Queen Palace. They only appear in nearly any ice arena except the beast or slime ones, and even then they're likely to be there. And even then you'll meet freeze mecha knights.

But let's get back to Bombastic and PvP. As a bomber, I would hate it if my recon demo gear got piercing defence. Why? Because nobody ever shoots at me with piercing guns. It's always Alchemers or Polaris, some Sentenza, some Argent Peacemaker. Never a Callahan. Never a Blitz Needle. So why would I want my Bombastic armour to have piercing defence? I'm not afraid of swords inside of my bomb's radius, and even if I was, piercing would defend me against one sword while elemental would protect me aganst about half of them.

Now that we've ended that digression, did you have any reasons as to why Mad Bomber is not a balanced piece of equipment and therefore why Chaos is not overpowered?

Suche

Lets (try to) compile this mess of opinions about Mad Bomber and Chaos into a single topic.