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new autogun line

25 respuestas [Último envío]
Lun, 09/30/2013 - 19:32
Marksmen

As all of you know, there are two lines that look like the blitz but only one line that look like the autogun. This new weapon will look like the autogun, will deal the same amount of damage as the volcanic series at the same * (meaning same damage bar length at the same *), but deal elemental damage. I haven't been able to decided which status effect would work (not fire since volcanic is already fire and not poison because plague is already poison). I was thinking shock but maybe it would be OP. Please comment on what status effect could work, what chance of causing it, how strong the status effect is, and if this elemental damage would work or if it would be too OP. Thx.

Lun, 09/30/2013 - 19:37
#1
Imagen de Shotjeer
Shotjeer

Hy would I use this over blitz?

Lun, 09/30/2013 - 19:47
#2
Marksmen
Why would use the volcanic

Why would use the volcanic over blitz when you can't even set the enemies in FCS including vana? Even with the fire status effect, I still use volcanic for the FSC runs and since it's elemental damage, it would be useful against undeads and gun puppies which the volcanic which deals normal damage can kill with one charge attack in some cases, although mine has construct med but the elemental damage could make up for the construct med uv. As for the answer to your question, because you don't have to always use the blitz. I enjoy using my volcanic even though it does way less damage than the blitz. Or more simply, why not? P.S my volcanic with low normal damage and fire status effect which useless in FCS still does very good.

Lun, 09/30/2013 - 21:02
#3
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake

-1
Weapon lines shouldn't provide more then 2 damage types or else you get the rage craft issue where they inflate the economy due to how broad the range of things it can be made into.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 06:34
#4
Imagen de Thunder-The-Bright
Thunder-The-Bright

we don't need an elemental blitz. actually, we don't need another blitz. so no.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 07:20
#5
Imagen de Merethif
Merethif
somewhat +1

OP isn't talking about Needle gun, but Pepperbox gun. Autogun series split up into two quite different paths so I wouldn't consider Blitz Needle related to Volcanic Pepperbox in a way Polaris and Supernova are related (or Neutralizer and Biohazard).

We got two Needle guns: Blitz Needle and Plague Needle. I don't see the reason to NOT have two Pepperboxes (so far we got only one: Volcanic Pepperbox). Plus it doesn't necessary need status - maybe a bonus dame vs some monster family? Also in my opinion Elemental + Shock is sooo Polaris. I'd go for Shadow + Stun.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 07:30
#6
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
Doesn't matter Merethif, it

Doesn't matter Merethif, it is still part of the autogun line. They all branch from the 2 star autogun thus making the autogun line avalible in 3 damage types.
That is unfair to most other weapon ines due to how easy it would be to get profits from rage crafting.
The brandish line has a similar issue and I bet it would be a bigger one if they had a pure normal as well as the shadow/normal and elemental/normal.

It also is unneeded seeing how the basic fighting style of all auto guns are "stand in your face then rip it away" unless you are the only person using a pepper box, in which case it is "stand far away and keep them at bay".

-1 due to unneeded and uncreative.
Try making a "new weapon".
As in new attacks not just damage types.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 07:53
#7
Imagen de Merethif
Merethif
@Waffleconecake

Well, actually Brandish has pure normal path. Well, this path is an ultimate fail, but still ;-)

Anyway, I totally agree with you that:
Needle = "stand in your face then rip it away"
Pepperbox = "stand far away and keep them at bay"

See? Totally different gaming experience. While with Polaris/Supernova or Neutralizer/Biohazard it is exactly the same gaming experience.

Maybe Pepperboxes and Needles should have totally different alchemy paths from the start? I don't know. I just feel that Pepperbox's attack is somewhat wasted being applied in only one weapon. All other attack types/patterns are used by at least two different weapons.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 08:07
#8
Imagen de Thunder-The-Bright
Thunder-The-Bright

polaris and supernova are not the same cause shock eliminates knockback. it has good sides and bad sides, but it's not that.
ok, its not a blitz. it has knockback. it's even worse. knockback and damage are good way to make a weapon OP. just balance it out with pepperbox and don't make it another "specialized better than normal in any case" weapon.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 08:17
#9
Imagen de Little-Juances
Little-Juances

Isn't pepperbox strong enough already?
Would anyone make blitz if Vana or trojans didn't exist?

If anything, a shadow autogun has more chances of succeding because of RJP/IQ and big lichen colonies.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 13:34
#10
Imagen de Merethif
Merethif
@Thunder-The-Bright

(About Polaris) It's not that Shock totally eliminates knockback. When I'm using Polaris it still sends majority of mobs flying all around.

Knock-back usually lowers damage because it push enemy out of blank shot, where all bullets hit single monster - if Needles have knock-back you probably wouldn't be able to one shot kill Trojan.

Plus I'm not saying that second version of Pepperbox is a must. Yes, we can live, and beat every monster and boss in SK, without it. It would be more of a new toy. That's why I'm not saying +1000. Just a humble +1 ;-)
People are inventing new weapons with new mechanics on this forum, while there are lots of already implemented mechanics that nobody tries. Really, most players think that Pepperbox is a "normal" version of Blitz, like Iron Slug is a "normal" version of Callahan.

Additional notice:
In my previous post I stated that Pepperbox is the only weapon that uses exclusive attack. I wasn't accurate. I forgot about Spur.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 11:35
#11
Imagen de Thunder-The-Bright
Thunder-The-Bright

polaris cancels knockback in many cases. yes, you can push a slag from one side to another in the central room of the charred court if you are lucky, but often you will stop right after the half. and if one stops, unless you kill it fast, you must stop to mantain full damage with that gun. supernova doesn't have that problem, it's a pure crowd control weapon.
pepperbox, mah. once it had a vacuum effect, now it has knockback. it's not crowd control, it hasn't got major knockback probably due to fire. it is best used to dispose of a crowd of half dead enemies or to kill a single target at close range. just like blitz, but pepperbox is safer because of knockback and fire. it also *should* be more efficent due to normal damage, but we are talking about blitz.
so, an elemental or shadow version of this gun would be used for the same reason and so all pepperbox users would be glad if they didn't have an outclassed gun. just like the ones who had mad bomber when chaos got buffed.

Mar, 10/01/2013 - 16:36
#12
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
@Merethif

@Merethif
Splitting them into 2 different weapon lines entirely only swaps it with a new problem: Near identical weapons.
We shouldn't have 2 weapon lines be almost identical in use. Status and damage type is not a different use. When I say use I mean by attack moves and charge attack.

Mié, 10/02/2013 - 14:34
#13
Marksmen
@Waffleconecake

The alchemer series have the exact attack and charge attack, with one path being shadow and the rest being elemental. Catalyzer series and pulsar series both have a 3 shot attack and a 1 shot charge attack although the charge attack of the catalyzer series does no direct damage, and the blaster series also have a 3 shot attack and one shot charge attack with a faster attack speed. The troika series and the rocket hammer series both have similar attack with the rocket hammer moving the user further and creates a explosion per swing. The charge attacks are also similar with the rocket hammer series slamming the ground twice with the second slam being in front of the first one and the troika series slams the ground once. What I am getting is that there are already weapons with separate crafting with a separate starting weapon for the crafting path that have similar or exactly the same attack and charge attack. So why can't the autogun series be split into 2 paths? Besides what you already stated.

Mié, 10/02/2013 - 17:54
#14
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
*Gibbs slaps the back of Marksmen's head*

Because all of your examples have different weapon fighting styles. As in how you use it completely, not just one tiny bit of them.

The alchemer series have the exact attack and charge attack, with one path being shadow and the rest being elemental.
These are all part of the weapon family, although I hate how copy'paste they are it is fine seeing how they are the same family. So what if they all start as their own 2 star version? I'd be raging just as much if someone suggested making a "new" alchemer.

Catalyzer series and pulsar series both have a 3 shot attack and a 1 shot charge attack although the charge attack of the catalyzer series does no direct damage, and the blaster series also have a 3 shot attack and one shot charge attack with a faster attack speed.
The pulsar line gains damage and bullet size with distance. The catalyzer normal shots gain no bonus effects or damage with travel. All they can do that the pulsar line can not is set off catalyzer charges.
The pulsar charge attack is simply a fully formed max size bullet. The catalizer's charge attack fires a orbital charge that connects to an enemy and is detonated when a catalyzer basic shot lands on the monster with charges.
You fight with the pulsar by keeping the enemies at bay by spamming the basic shots and abusing the high knock back and easy hit.
The catalyzer is heavily dependent on the charge attack to fight. With out it you are using a very weak gun while that is what almost everyone does with the pulsar; use only the basic shots.
How are these similar weapons in use or description of attacks?

The troika series and the rocket hammer series both have similar attack with the rocket hammer moving the user further and creates a explosion per swing. The charge attacks are also similar with the rocket hammer series slamming the ground twice with the second slam being in front of the first one and the troika series slams the ground once.
The torika line does have a similar charge attack to the rocket hammer line. That is their only similarity.
The torika has a normal slash fallowed by a spin slash for its basic combo. The rocket hammer has a normal slash fallowed with a dash ending it with a spin hit.
Please tell me how these are similar attack styles.
The charge attack on the torika is a simple, high damage smash meant to be used abusivly due to how high the knock back is and how fast it can be done. The rocket hammer trades the safety of a simple, fast charge attack for even more DPS by having you slam it down twice.
Torika= safer
Rocket hammer=stronger

What I am getting is that there are already weapons with separate crafting with a separate starting weapon for the crafting path that have similar or exactly the same attack and charge attack.
PLEASE TELL ME ONE EXAMPLE BESIDES THE MIST BOMBS OR ALCHYMERS WHERE TWO WEAPON LINES ARE IDENTICAL BUT SEPARATED.
The mist bomb line is only separated due to the fact that the 1 star version of the mist bomb was removed due to rage crafting. It was the starting bomb of ALL mist bombs.
The alchymers are undeniably the same weapon in different weapon lines. They are the same weapon just starting at 2 and in their own lines. Is it needed for them to all start from 2 star and the same weapon? No. Would I be raging about them if they decided to make a "new" alchymer or mist bomb? Yes, usually.

Mié, 10/02/2013 - 23:03
#15
Imagen de Zeddy
Zeddy

"PLEASE TELL ME ONE EXAMPLE BESIDES THE MIST BOMBS OR ALCHYMERS WHERE TWO WEAPON LINES ARE IDENTICAL BUT SEPARATED."

Okay.

Shard bomb, crystal bomb, dark matter bomb, splinter bomb.
Electron and graviton Vortex.

Jue, 10/03/2013 - 06:10
#16
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
shhhhh

shhhh u zeddy :c

Vie, 10/04/2013 - 22:56
#17
Marksmen
@Waffleconecake

See, there already are weapons that have the same attack with different attack types (elemental, shadow, etc.), are craftable from different 2* or 3* and seem to have no problem with this. The autogun paths can be split and if this doesn't work out, then stats of the weapons could be balanced to make it work.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 02:58
#18
Imagen de Thunder-The-Bright
Thunder-The-Bright

or, we could split lines. always without the branching problems. autogun would be for pepperbox and this gun, and we add a "needle gun" for blitz and plague.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 06:17
#19
Imagen de Waffleconecake
Waffleconecake
Not even going to bother trying any more with you

Okay.
I'll support this thread if you can come up with a way to make the weapons different in use. As in the basic attack combo and charge attack.
I won't support a weapon thread that is basically a current weapon with a different status or damage type.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 07:43
#20
Imagen de Geosmin
Geosmin

Zeddy, that was two examples, not one! Can't you read instructions?

Yeah, +1 for splitting the lines. Besides the fact that we've got those 4 examples of precedent, any one who's used both a Pierce Autogun and a Normal Autogun should know that they're far from identical in behaviour. IMO the closest comparison is the difference between the Pulsegun and the Blaster; the former is more of a long-range weapon for covering a large area and has greater DPS, while the latter is more of a close-up tool and is less specialised.

Back on-topic, I do agree that copy-and-paste content is less shiny than more new mechanics, but I expect the former to take much less time to implement, so I'd welcome new toys to play with either way. The abundance of cosmetic items suggests to me that the art team is trying to stay productive while programmers have their plates full with figuring out how to make things work, like fixing problems and building whole new systems for stuff like Battle Sprites.

For a new weapon I'd rather see Shadow than Elemental, since we already have gobs and gobs of Elemental weapons. For a copy-paste Autogun job: Schrödinger's Jack-in-the-Box simply plugs Catalyser projectiles into the Autogun, but setting damage, lifespan and knockback numbers to Autogun standards, thus combining the long, completely unmoving attack animation and very long cooldown animation of an Autogun with the Catalyser's slow projectile speed and need to combine two attacks to get full damage output, for the same base damage as a Needler, and with the added bonus of having range cut down to a fraction of what other Autoguns offer! (You notice how the Normal and Pierce Autoguns have different range? So far as we can tell, it's because the projectiles have different speed but the same lifespan. The way Alchemers gain range as you upgrade star level seems to be implemented the same way.) As such, the CatBox would have shorter range than any existing gun, which should mesh very well with the aforementioned slowness of attacking and need to attack twice to get anything out of the charge attack. It doesn't need a damage boost or anything to make up for the huge losses relative to vanilla Autogun, because it's still plenty powerful. Heck, let's also trade some damage for chance of Freeze infliction so it better mirrors the Pepperbox and so that "Spiral hipsters" will go even more wild for it.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 09:23
#21
Imagen de Arkate
Arkate
@Waffle

Yes, original creative ideas are better. But some weapon lines need another weapon/damage type as a sort of "Band-aid." For example, the calibur line would benefit HUGELY from the Cold Iron weapons using elemental damage. The Cold Iron weapons are supposed to be the ultimate zombie slayers, yet both DA and the ALL of the elemental Brandish weapons are much better at that.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 11:03
#22
Imagen de Battlegrinder
Battlegrinder
@Arkate

Given that the DA has both the undead damage bonus and elemental damage, I think it was probably intended be the "ultimate zombie slayer", and the CIV was designed as a weapon that's slightly better at undead hunting without sacrificing the caliber line's all-around equal performance. Cold Iron is traditional the go-to weapon for fighting fairies and ghosts, so it does make sense to have the CIV be more effective against undead (though a "vs spookats" bonus would even more in line with mythology), but smacking something with a big hunk of iron will be petty effective against just about anything, so keeping it normal damage is also logical. It is a little wierd the the "Cold Iron" weapon gets stronger as you heat it, but other than that I think the CIV is an ok weapon.

Sáb, 10/05/2013 - 11:20
#23
Imagen de Battlegrinder
Battlegrinder
@OP

I don't really see much need for an elemental or shadow autogun, since the pepperbox would probably still have a solid edge over either variant.

Shadow:
Not too great against gremlins (dodgy little &$#@'s that they are).
Would be decent against slimes, but the pepperbox would still be a better choice for ice cubes, and using it against lichen colonies would be risky.

Elemental:
Would be OK against undead, but the AP and DA have a substantial edge over it.
Would not be all that useful against constructs, as using it on mecha knights and gun puppies would be ineffective/suicidal, it would be overkill to use it on scuttlebots, and using it against retrogrades and lumbers would be risky but viable.

Dom, 10/06/2013 - 08:51
#24
Marksmen
So, +1 or -1?

So, +1 or -1?

Dom, 10/06/2013 - 12:53
#25
Imagen de Battlegrinder
Battlegrinder
@Marksmen

I don't do +/- 1 on suggestion threads. I don't like reducing the sum total of my feedback to just a number.

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