Spiral Knights - Lockdown guardians the problem and solution.

Lockdown guardians the problem and solution.

38 replies [Last post]

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 10:22

Dekuinanutshell

So as I was chilaxin in the legion and poppin caps in Arkus's gut there were a couple things i noticed about him that I feel we're missing out in lockdown for guardians.

1. the dude gets no status effects what so ever. I was throwing vials at him for lol'z and emptied the entire arsenal at him with status effects and all it did was damage.

2. we obviously know this part but the damage output from the front does less damage then from behind. But thats besides the point.

Why is it that when we play lockdown as guardians we are legitly damage sausages? Status effects demolish us, slow us down and make us unable to be a true "Guardian?" When our shield breaks we're running potatos waiting to be squashed and then when it comes to defending our team with a huge bubble of "doom" just slap a divine avenger on the ground and TADA your shield just broke from 1 hit of a Divine avenger because the swing managed to hit 2 players at the same time.

True Guardians get loads of health and this is a semi counter to getting killed on the spot but thats not the soul reason to defending. A Guardian is suppose to outlast the team with endurance but for some reason the endurance of the guardian is nerfed majorly. If strikers can outlast an entire team and recons can evade strikers with deception what do guardians hold? A big shield? Hardly. They should hold a title and role that gives them the ability to be strong and enduring for the teams protection.

The solution
Guardians would get the same health bonus as recons, they would be immune to status effects to be able to fend off points. Their attacks would stay normal but the shield itself should have its own buff. If players are in the shield then they should take no damage or at least get a buff defense from the shield. As for the shield itself it should only be cracked if the guardian itself gets attacked. Their effects on weapons should be:
DB medium for all weapons
Attack speed decrease medium on all weapons
Charge time increase low on swords
Movement speed decrease low
ctr low for bombs
charge time increase low on guns

Doing so would result in the fallowing:

Their attacks would be strong but slow.
They can walk through shiv, ash, and shock bombs without worry of being effected by status effects. [unless they have decrease status effects on their armor like chaos set or BKC]
Faust users cannot curse guardians. [again pending if they have status decrease]
Teams with guardians can now hide behind a shield for a defense buff.
Guardian shields wont break if two or more players get attacked in the shield.
Guardian shield will break if the guardian gets attacked personally.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 10:41

Khamsin

Guardian guarding a haze spammer = lolz will be had. And by lolz I mean extreme anger, if the bomber can body block the guardian to prevent damage.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 10:59

Hexzyle

Consider this

The Guardians already get a boost in status resist, and the Guardian Shield is already immune to status damage though.
Also, the way the current status system works makes it impossible to be immune to Strong status.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 11:02

Little-Juances

If the shield takes no damage unless the owner is hit, what would happen with 2 guardians overlapping each other?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 11:06

Khamsin

"the Guardian Shield is already immune to status damage though."

It lets haze bleed through it though.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 11:08

Hexzyle

@Khamsin

Erm, no it doesn't, you can camp in hazes forever. One of the most annoying thing about Haze bombing is haze-swimming Guardians.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 11:11

Khamsin

"Erm, no it doesn't, you can camp in hazes forever. One of the most annoying thing about Haze bombing is haze-swimming Guardians."

Ummm.... what? I guess the change to guardian shield got reverted then, because back in 2011, when I played LD at its prime, I remember a change rolling out that made haze bleed through the shield.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 11:48

Terra-Necro

@Khamsin

That was 2011, and this is now. Guardian shield blocks status until the shield pops.

@OP Immunity to all statuses? Are you mad? Do you want a guy like CrustyCrab plowing into you with his asi vh FF in tank guardian mode? Even the notion of immunity to ONE status is too op for guardian.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 12:20

Offense-Armor

The problem with buffing

The problem with buffing guardians is that we have bomber guardians and sword guardians.

Bomber guardians are already very difficult for the average player to take down and any buffs would just make it more frustrating.
Sword guardians are generally less effective then strikers and really deserve some kind of buff, but we don't want to unbalance the bombers.

I think Fradow suggested something about removing the flinch when the guardian shield is hit, so that they have a bigger time frame to counterattack.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 12:40

Thunder-The-Bright

make them shieldbump already. at least, I tried a couple of months ago and it didn't work. if it works already, I missed something.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 12:54

#10

Dekuinanutshell

Notes of notes ontop of notes for notes and even more notes

So heres how I see it. Even tho the shield itself has these extreme resistances to status effects it makes no sense when they flinch every half a second in a swagger storm (yes i went there what are you going to do about it?)

Secondly what is the guardian going to do if his shield can resist the flinch? If anything there should be a total opposite effect. The guardian should have a status resistance when hes not shielding and when he does shield he would be prone to status effects. This would level it out very well considering that they need to find a way to crawl inside swagger storm users (exactly you're not doing anything about it.)

Also may I remind you guys that Recons have CTR VH on bombs? If anything the guardian should have a nerfed balance of both bombs and a balanced nerf for swords for defense options considering it is a defense class type and not ment to be an overpowering class. I mean we're trying to balance the classes for crying out loud.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for seeing two guardians ontop of eachother that raises a good point. Your answer is this; guardians cant be affected by another guardians shield. Easy as that. All it would do is give a double buff for the other players that aren't guardians.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 13:53

#11

Offense-Armor

Lol I meant that the guardian

Lol I meant that the guardian shield shouldn't be flinched by swords in a swordfight. Acually with a fast enough sword you can hit the bomber, shield immediately, and not get statused. If the guardian already has a med res to all status effects. We can't make guardians completely immune to haze bombs because they would be a hard counter to bombers (bombers have enough troubles). I agree with changing the guardian shields effects. I think Sword Asi Med, Gun Asd Med, and Bomb Ctr Med would be nice (low increases are just awkward when trying to max asi or ctr). I'm going to disagree with the 2 guardians can't stack idea as well. I think that 2 guardians working together is a very fun and useful combo. They can take turns healing each other while the other bombs. They make a good capping team as well because they have a lot of staying power (can heal after fights).

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 13:57

#12

Terra-Necro

@OP

For the last time... NO STATUS RESISTANCE!

The LD classes are not meant to have status resistance. If any class were to need resistance, it would be the recon class...

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 16:05

#13

Modicu

@Terra

You have to remember, the Recon Class is a stealth-based support class. They rely mostly on taking out their targets at a distance, or using bombs to soften up their enemies' defenses so their teammates can pick them off. Having resistances on them wouldn't make sense, as when you're a stealth class, you need to be quick, agile, and most importantly... as far away from your opposition as possible. In many other games and variations, the stealth classes actually have status vulnerabilities and weakened defenses, which forces the players to rely on the element of surprise when it comes to engaging their enemies. The Recon class on Spiral Knights should maintain this layout, to help give it that "stealth/support" feeling, without actually endangering the players and leaving them as sitting ducks akin to not being cloaked.

@OP

Your idea structure is both valid and dicey, and you do have a similar thought to how my Guardian class in an attack/defend gamemode I've been thinking about lately is based around. The only thing different is the health bonus you were talking about. To be honest, I think that should stay the same, except they can take more damage when being attacked from behind, and endure standard attacks with ease from the front. I think this is what you were going at, to build them much like Arkus is:
- Greater damage with blades. (Slow, but deadly, is a great way to pick off staggering [careless] enemies.)
- Greater damage resistance. (They're Guardians! Built for fortification! Built to tank blows for their allies!)
- Slower attack and movement speeds. (The heavy armor they wear pretty much sums up this being the case.)
- Slower charge times in general. (I think it was a low penalty, not a medium one.)
~ 49 - 69% damage reduction when being attacked from the front. (I think this is the correct value on Arkus, not sure.)
~ 15% damage vulnerability when being attacked from behind.

I'm in favor of them being unaffected by all status conditions with the exception of being cursed. Alchemical bombs are a nightmare for Guardians, as in order to protect yourself from it, you have to keep your shield out and stagger everywhere, leaving yourself wide open for a good lashing. As for the players being in the shield and not taking any damage or having a damage reduction... I'm kind of iffy on this, but I would suggest that instead of that; the shield itself, when deployed and the aura is visible and active, can knockback those that wish to interfere with the Guardian while he's trying to protect his allies and replenish their health. Sort of like a very minor stun, having those who wish to dance with them needing to pick him off with guns, or find a way to pull their attention off of their allies and off to fight you instead. However, to counter this, I would say decrease the size of the aura just a slight amount. If a player uses a charge attack with adequate range, then they can definitely counterattack the Guardian while their shield is deployed.

That's it from my mind.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 17:53

#14

Dekuinanutshell

@the one and only

If you think about it the damage resistance wouldn't make it fair for the rest of the group. Generally yes in other games there is a counter balance of resistance but needless to say the only reason I say they need a buff is because combat wise they are not even a defense class. They're basically a way to get easy damage points because once you force their shields to break they're useless.

The soul reason I made this forum is to discuss a way to improve the guardians combatability against both recon and striker. It needs a buff to endure a striker endurance. Even if the Striker has trinkets they should still have a hard time fighting a guardian and recons should have a key role at removing guardians. Like reducing their shields buff by half or so or even by 75% if thats a better role because lets face it the buffs can be a bit extreme if not done correctly.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:18

#15

Zeddy

Just so we're on the same page, here is what guardians do have and are capable of:

A guardian has Medium resistance to all statuses. Where the other classes need max+high to be immune to mist bombs, guardians merely need max+low. This makes it much easier to a guardian to be immune to all mist bombs than the other classes.
The guardian shield has total immunity to mist bombs. If you bring your shield up inside of one, you will continously flinch. This is a good thing for guardians because you are immune to damage while flinching. Staying inside of the radius of a hazebomb makes you nearly invulnerable to the opposition, and you can camp on a CP protected by hazes. This forces your enemy to either stop hazebombing or to stay on the CP lest they lose control over it, which makes it much easier for your allies to take them out.
While the shield is not very powerful against swords, it can take a lot of bullets. A guardian protecting a bomb-spammer can keep a CP for a very long time. Two guardians on a bombspammer can likely hold a point forever.

Sadly, the guardian can only truly be utilized with teamwork and teamwork within Lockdown is basically unheard of.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 12:04

#16

Terra-Necro

@Cyberpony

You misunderstand me. What I was trying to say (went to google translate) was that out of all three classes, the recon class is the most vunerable to statuses. If a striker is statused, he/she can try to dash away. If a guardian is statused, he/she can try to run away and rely on large health or use his/her shield. If a recon is statused, he/she does not really have an effective way of escape (shock,fire breaks cloak).

Now I'm not saying a recon's role is meant to be long range, but I am saying that for the most part, recons are at the mercy of status gunners. Once an alchemer status procs on one, he/she is kinda screwed.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 12:44

#17

Dekuinanutshell

@zeddy

Even though the guardian class has these resistances its pointless to have 2 classes that are fine on their own and 1 class that is dependant on its team. So if this is the case then guardian is perfectly fine as it is and strikers, and recons are the things that need to be nerfed because they're too OP considering you can fight on your own without a team as a recon or a striker.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 13:19

#18

Offense-Armor

Bomber guardians certainly

Bomber guardians certainly need team support, but that's because they're bombers. Experienced Sword Guardians can easily fight on their own. Being a guardian doesn't mean that you'll automatically lose to every striker that comes your way. Guardians also have increased health (+ slight healing) which arguably means they can survive longer. In fact, my goal in lockdown is to be able to beat any striker 1v1 as a guardian (Down with strikers! >:D).

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 06:21

#19

Kraanx

YES! someone else actually

YES! someone else actually lays guardian out there! hello all of you!

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 08:22

#20

Dekuinanutshell

Hello Kraanx. @OA To be

Hello Kraanx.

@OA
To be honest even though that is true, why is it that recons can escape bombing a CP with no problem but when a defender does it its mayhem? If anything Recons should have a harder time capping a point with bombs then guardians considering they're a support role and not a pure defense class.

True there is defense in support but why does support get more stats for defense then offense? If anything it should be a ballanced view of defense and offense for a good support role instead of the nerfed view as a guardian.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 09:18

#21

Narfle

Just my two cents, but I really think the only thing about the guardian class that needs to be changed is making multiple guardian shields independent of one another. The recon shield buff and the addition of dash made playing recon more immediately accessible, but as the intended support class guardians can't do a whole lot of supportin' when one heavy sword combo cracks both your shield and the shields of all of your other guardian buddies at the same time.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 10:15

#22

Dekuinanutshell

Its an orgy.

And lets not forget what happens when a group is huddled inside your shield and a recon decides to slap you with a divine avenger... *shudders from the horror*

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 12:37

#23

Offense-Armor

Recon doesn't actually have

Recon doesn't actually have an easier time capping points with bombs. They have no protection against guns and no self regen ability. If they're bombing a point and some enemies come along, then they're usually forced to abandon capping (which isn't that helpful to the team). Guardians have a shield to help against guns. Coupled with self regen; guardians have a much easier time capping than any other class really. Guardian Bombers' only goal is to stall the enemy for as long as possible. They shouldn't even think of running. They stall to their last health pip.

I understand the problems about how the shield is too flimsy and weak. It doesn't fufill it's role as a primary form of defense. I use the guardian shield to extend my life and counterattack. Guardians also have access to dash, so don't just stand there if someone starts wailing on you. Dash away (this is why I like using hammer as guardian). This is also why it would be good to remove that flinch upon hitting the shield. At least the guardian shield would be easier to counterattack from. If you have a guardian buddy, then you shouldn't both have your shields up (unless you're healing) for the exact reason that damage is dealt to both shields.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 14:11

#24

Dekuinanutshell

I did my reaserch!

I ended up doing a lockdown match today to test zeddy's theory about shield buffs, while this does play a key role in defense and considering you are "invulnerable" to damage while flinching the stupid part of the matter is:
1. You cant move! Whats the point of walking into a bomb haze and you cant escape?!
2. There is a window of opportunity, which means that if the enemy manages to hit you as you're flinching you will take damage, and before you know it your shield breaks and you're stuck in a haze with no defense!
3. 5 hits from a valliance and the shield breaks...nuff said.

The buffs on the guardian are too small to notice and dont play a vital role like the recons buff did.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 17:04

#25

Shotjeer

And yet...

You are the most invincible class in T1. I remember 1 year ago when I was guardian in T1 LD, I did not die once. So I do suppose that they should buff shields as they upscale tiers, butif you want status immunities, then you must give it damage debuffs. Legit debuffs. At least high. If you want a friggin tank, then make it balanced with less damage.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 17:44

#26

Neodasus

in the words of sun tzu: "git

in the words of sun tzu:

"git gud"

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 18:30

#27

Offense-Armor

What Neodasus said

Guardians can move through hazes, but they move very slowly. They aren't meant to be an anti-bomber class, so just use a gun.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:06

#28

Sirius-Voltbreaker

No defense bonus.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:13

#29

Dekuinanutshell

@Shootjeer

I see where you're getting at. But please remember that guardians are "hard hitting and slow" so if you give a attack speed decrease and a movement speed decrease I feel this would counter this very well since the armor is "tank worthy."

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:35

#30

Sirius-Voltbreaker

I appreciate you defending guardians but..

Recons are the worst class. Unless you have asi of course.
And I like the recon the most too. Even though I strike a lot, it will always be important to me.
I think the time between guardians can take damage should be bigger.
I mean, Siriusly, how do you expect a guardian to escape 2 cutters?

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 16:46

#31

Offense-Armor

Hahahaahahahahahah

Sirius want to try to take me down with only 2 cutters?

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 17:07

#32

Sirius-Voltbreaker

I meant two cutters vs 1 guardian...

I can't even beat u with cutters.. only with flourishes...

Sun, 10/06/2013 - 17:46

#33

Dekuinanutshell

@sirius

Umm...recons are balanced - .- i play as recon all the time and even with the asd i still get relitively 9-10k damage on average, and I dont wield any asi UV's. But as for guardians they are not balanced and neither are strikers.

Sun, 10/06/2013 - 19:55

#34

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Well...

There is a difference between pros and not-pros...
I have seen you play and you are a pro.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 11:00

#35

Dekuinanutshell

@sirius

Never have I said Im "pro" what I am getting at is that there is a major imbalance as a guardian and there needs to be some buffs and nerfs for the guardian line to balance it.

As for how I am lockdown wise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H2p_fL7g2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPwJu4dGXY4

again not pro but then again I'm not exactly a bad player.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 12:06

#36

Offense-Armor

Found it!

This is the proper fix to guardian in my opinion.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/72613#comment-625628

Btw Zeddy I'm still waiting for a video of you using the Ironmight + Triglav + Callahan + VV set.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 00:51

#37

Hexzyle

I use Sudaruska + Iron Slug + VV in Lockdown, does that count?

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 15:06

#38

Dekuinanutshell

@hex

aint no problem with that. The matter isnt about skill again, its about finding a balance where every class has a equil balance of buff and nerf something that is neglected greatly by OOO considering the weapons deal such intense damage and are countered for PvP not the players themselves

Search

Lockdown guardians the problem and solution.