Spiral Knights - Guns are currently the strongest weapon type

Guns are currently the strongest weapon type

25 replies [Last post]

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 10:50

Fehzor

I think that guns are currently the strongest weapon type.

Why bombs are bad

Bombs fail because of how they can't handle single target foes very well, with the exception of dark retribution, which is but one bomb limited to shadow damage. If I want to bomb vanaduke, my damage is going down the drain because vanaduke isn't 20 mobs, he's one mob with one health bar that takes forever to reduce. The same goes for tortodrones and every other large mob.

Bombs are also especially prone to bullet hell- you have to get in to drop your bomb, and you cannot shield at all while charging. While doable, this still introduces extra strain on the player. Why bother bombing when you can just fall back and gun down the opposition?

Why swords are bad

A lot of people are quick to point out that handguns have lower damage than swords. But I like to point out that the game doesn't care how high your damage per second is, it cares how high your damage per second per damage taken is. No matter how good a swordy I am, I'll always have to have greater risk when attacking up close than I would from further with a handgun.

Further, the majority of strategies I've seen used to defeat the harder content in Spiral Knights revolve around handguns, because most of the harder enemies punish you for using swords. They do this by dealing area damage from up close, dropping poisonous splotches, surrounding themselves with fire balls, and using bullet hell against you. All of these scenarios make it very likely that you'll take damage using a sword against whatever you're fighting.

Why handguns are good

Handguns have area control at a distance as well as high single target damage, also at a distance. This combination is typically what you should be shooting for. (That pun.)

The alchemers deal heavy statuses that allow you to clump together and stall mobs for lengths of time as well as snipe them. If I'm using acheron or combuster, I have to walk up to a turret to hit it. If I'm using nova driver, I can deal very similar damage from quite far off with a well aimed charge attack, or I can strafe and fire off regular shots while dodging.

The same goes for pulsars. If I fire from a distance, I deal area damage at a distance, safely. If I knock them into a corner or immobilize them, I have fairly high single target damage as well. A full party of people using this tactic works particularly well with itself.

Blitz needle offers high damage of all kinds from a distance. It immobilizes the user, which is a huge drawback and makes it really not all that amazing, except for against slow, frozen, or shielded mobs. When that happens, you're golden. It also helps out when you know what you're doing better than you have any right to. I can kill 3 slags in one charge after freezing them in place correctly. It has more significance, but I'll get to that later.

Carbine, valiance and argent peacemaker have less crowd control, but offer such great safety that I feel they are certainly worth mentioning. Having more than 2 shots that don't deal area damage gives them huge utility that swords and bombs lack almost completely-- especially for carbine/argent. You can almost just forgo all notion of being the most damaging awesome thing and survive indefinitely to win.

The biggest counter to handguns are also defeated best by them. Almirian crusaders and mecha knights can be dealt with easily by manipulating their shield tactics, while trojans and other large shielded mobs are notably defeated by autoguns. Most healing mobs rely on a mender of some sort, which can also be shut down using a handgun.. those with respawning healers can be dealt with using autoguns, to fully maximize damage taken.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 11:05

Drischa

I would like to challenge this by saying that guns are not simply the outright best - as with absolutely every weapon in this game, it depends on what situation you're in. I hate using such a dull argument, but it's dull because everyone says it, and everyone says it because it's true.

For example, in almost every situation bar bullethell and single targets, a nitronome will murder everything in the game with fairly low risk, similar to the safety that you claim guns provide. Simply inturrupt and knockback everything until it's dead. Add enough damage boost for turret flinching and even a lot of bullethell scenarios are a lot easier.

I am eager to be corrected.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 11:17

Uberer-Alt

The best weapon depends on the room/enemies.

In tight rooms with little fighting space heave swords are the best in my opinion. Guns will just get you killed.
Often it is safer to use brandish charges than guns.
In compounds and arenas bombs are very good.

I think it is wrong to say that guns are the best.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 11:29

Cinoa

Gun charges are almost useless IMO.
Brandish charges all da waayyy

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 11:39

Bamzalot

My go-to plan for any situation

I just take a Carbine, Nova Driver, Blitz Needle, and Nitronome. I also like to stack up CTR and ASI for my guns through the useage of armor and trinkets. This way I can take a good defensive shield, preferably The Bitter End, instead of the Swift Strike Buckler.

I use the Nitronome for when there are loads of monsters on screen, and then I gun down everything else. If I enter a bullet hell zone, I just hide behind an actual, protective shield, while occasionally fireing off a round of Carbine/Nova. No sword required. Though I do agree that each weapon is good for it's own scenario.

I guess I like guns out of habit. Shooting things has always been a great interest to me. So has staying alive. Putting the two together, and I have nothing but a great time! Not to mention that it is always entertaining to see 3 dead swordies lay before me while I'm standing there with 100% health and my ER.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 11:47

Skepticraven

...

When I finished reading the first post, I came to the conclusion that handguns are not the strongest weapon but rather that handguns were the best all-purpose weapon.

Swords maximize DPS.
Guns balance DPS and utility.
Bombs maximize utility and crowd control.

The alchemer and blitz (for crowd control) examples you use are slightly far-fetched.
I can out-damage or out-safety both with swords or bombs. Grav bomb + heavy sword (or brandish) will outperform alch/blitz charges. Playing solo or having a dysfunctional team may lead to gunning as a better choice.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 12:00

Drischa

@Cinoa

"Gun charges are almost useless IMO"

Autoguns, Catalyzers, Drivers, Blasters? They all have pretty darned viable charges.

Brandish charges are great until you encouter one of the bullethell scenarios, where I will admit, guns are probably the best weapon.

To be honest though - the best weapon is a vortex bomb + any weapon with a very powerful charge. It's all in the synergy.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 12:06

Nuclear-Breadstick

Your Point?

@Uberer-Alt

Alchemer says hi.

@Cinoa
Autogun is offended that you do not know of its existence. Shame, you've hurt it's feelings.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 12:26

Cinoa

@Drachronos and Roger-Pines note I said "almost"

Those charges are useless to me
Because I don't have a single one of those guns.
EDIT: I could have worded this better.
They would be useless to me in solo, but at least they might do good when I make a grim repeater and phantamos.
You can move (a tiny bit) while attacking with a sword.
I'm not trying to say guns are garbage though, I've always been a hybrid sword/gunner myself.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 12:19

Drischa

@Cinoa Just because you don't

@Cinoa
Just because you don't own something, doesn't mean it's useless. I don't own a chaos set but you don't see me going round saying it's useless :U

Also I find that magnus charges are pretty good if you have some spare time and a devillite that you particularly don't like the look of.

@Uberer
I actually find guns really good in close quarters, as you can actually move while attacking, something that swords can't do. You're not locked in place while the attack animation happens (unless you're using an autogun or magnus).

Edit: Let's all just take note that Fehzor started the post with "I think". It's just an opinnniooonnnnnn (looks more like onion when you stretch it out like that)

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 15:42

#10

Welux

*Random Noises*

This is why i bring a bomb, driver, and a sword wherever i go.
Can handle any situation i'm in, and when i get Nitronome, this build will be further strengthened.

But i can agree, guns are powerful, with the basis that you can deal effective damage from a distance.
With supernova/polaris, nothing will be getting in melee distance anytime soon.
With drivers, you can snipe crowds down with a well placed charge and a few shots, as well as one hit a turret or leave a lumber at 10-15%~ health with a good shot.
Blitz needle is blitz needle.
Iron slug is hilariously fun for whatever reason.
Valiance is pretty good at all around situations.
Catalyzers are setup heavy, that pay off planning and intelligence, but doesn't leave out the fun in exploding stuff.
And Antiguas can gun down stuff from a good distance and has 6 rounds to ensure your safety.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 16:52

#11

Plancker

I dont agree with everything

I dont agree with everything you listed as highly likely situations for swordsmen to take damage. Bullethell scenarios are easily dealt with by using dash and shield block at appropriate times, once you take out one or 2 turrets you have the room to start taking out the others one by one, and your dash will have recharged by then. Poisonous splotches dont deal damage to you, you will more likely take damage from for example the slimes spin attack where they launch spikes at you, and then I agree, it is easier to dodge those when using guns, but if you can take the slimes out in a few hits with a high damage sword you are relieving your team of pressure and finish the mission quicker too

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 18:56

#12

Fehzor

Most of what you guys have said is true. There are many situations where guns are worse than swords and bombs, but overall they're still the strong suit when it comes to all of the harder content in the game, largely because of the utility+range+mobility factor.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 20:24

#13

Dibsville

I'm going to agree with Fehzor here. Guns are just insane when used correctly, and quite honestly there's very little reason to use anything else other than "I want to kill things (slightly) faster than I could with guns at the risk of possibly putting myself in harm's way".

+1 OP.

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 20:08

#14

Tekrat

I also want to add more

I also want to add more here:

-You can indeed get great dps with guns. That can be done via weapon switching, especially with alchemers, or use a pulsar to pin monsters into a corner and allow the splash damage deal damage to multiple enemies at once. Of course there is also the blitz/pepperbox charge.

-Gunslingers benefit from larger parties. Its easier for four gunslingers to concentrate their fire onto a single target or mob than it is for say four swordsmen to attack the same targets, since the knockback caused by one sword user will may make the others miss (on most monsters)

Sat, 05/17/2014 - 22:21

#15

Fehzor

By bullet hell I was thinking of both many turrets and vanaduke's mask.

@Skepticraven

I suppose I really should have made that more clear.

Guns deal relatively high damage from a distance safely. Higher than bombs, and safer than swords.

This puts them at the highest safe, sane, DPS point on the chart of how reckless you're being vs how much damage, where swords are reckless but slightly stronger and bombs are slightly less safe than guns and incredibly weak unless presented with several dozen enemies. Even then, handguns almost always have some means of taking care of the situation.

In a way you're right though. It IS because they're the best all around weapon type. You can use them for pretty much everything the game presents, even when that thing is deliberately not good for guns. Like mobs that react to guns, which become controlled by them. I can shoot my gun to trigger mecha knights and crusaders, for example. Swords and bombs on the other hand, fall short when out of their element to a much larger degree. "Swords only vanaduke" is considered a challenging run by most, and no one I saw was able to fight the tortodrones with swords and say it worked well either. Bombing the roarmulus twins is a terrible idea, especially if you brought shards.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 00:45

#16

Dutch-Oven

conclusive proof right here!

Video Evidence

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 01:02

#17

Blazzberry

SCP-96

+1 Dutch-Mcloven

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 01:57

#18

Alphappy

>Further, the majority of strategies I've seen used to defeat the harder content in Spiral Knights revolve around handguns, because most of the harder enemies punish you for using swords. They do this by dealing area damage from up close, dropping poisonous splotches, surrounding themselves with fire balls, and using bullet hell against you. All of these scenarios make it very likely that you'll take damage using a sword against whatever you're fighting.

You're right in that regard. This problem originates from a lack of armor diversity. Since swordie armor doesn't provide any more defense or health than gunner armor, you really are at a disadvantage as a swordie.

>Most healing mobs rely on a mender of some sort, which can also be shut down using a handgun.. those with respawning healers can be dealt with using autoguns, to fully maximize damage taken.

Venom Veiler says "hi!"

In the end, you're right - if you shuffled every possible combat situation and picked one at random, guns would probably be the best solution to it. There are still a few scenarios in which that is not true:
•multiple wolvers, in which case guns are both slow and unsafe due to teleports.
•multiple greavers, in which case guns are extremely unsafe due to inability to reliably hit more than one target.
--•by extension, multiple of any quick-moving enemy, like quicksilvers.
•Menders hiding behind the front line, in which case Venom Veiler or a brandish charge would be better.
•surrounded or cornered, due to no knockback at close range.

And theoretically, swords are superior to guns when:
•a Mender is hiding behind the front line.
•you are surrounded or cornered.
•you want extreme burst damage right as something spawns.
•you need good, reliable interrupt.
•you need a VERY quick interrupt(guns have a bit more of a delay than swords in creating the initial hitbox).
•your target is shocked, stunned or otherwise slow to act.

And bombs when:
•a large number of mobs are giving out group hugs.
•you are fighting several fast-moving mobs, like devilites or kats. Kats love to eat VT.
•there's simply too much going on.

...yea, I won't deny that bombs are kinda gimped. I think that bombs-only loadouts were not meant for solo play, however.

I also think that guns just have a very, very high skill ceiling so it's easy to see them used in "overpowered" ways.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 10:44

#19

Fehzor

Yes, you can use other strategies like venom veiler. I'm not denying that. But handguns are typically stronger and more versatile than these kinds of strategies- fighting shielded or even just poisonous mobs will shut down venom veilor. You can run up to things and kill them, and that's pretty nice, but is it really necessary when you can just run up and attack with a gun for less damage? Considering that you get to keep the gun for later, where it'll inevitably be better at strafing and staying alive, I'd say that bringing handguns for the purpose over something like acheron would be beneficial.

The multiple greavers scenario is one of the few times that guns are awful to be using, but the only real solution to that is dark briar barrage/nitronome and maybe the shards if you're skilled enough. Using blitz needle would work about as well as using a sword of some sort.

If you're surrounded or cornered, your sword isn't going to save you from taking some damage. It might lessen it, and it might be nice to have for that, but you can also use your shield to escape from it, or otherwise find an opening. But really, that's just bad play. You should never surround yourself with enemies unless its part of the plan; i.e. to kill the above grievers with a bomb.

Wolvers are all pansies. Shoot your gun once, make them teleport and attack, charge and then shoot into them all. You can move them into teammates' bombs if they brought them, or otherwise into explosive blocks or other teammates' guns.

----------

@Brandish Charges ftw argument

Brandish charges fall flat when fighting things like vanaduke and tortodrones. They'll carry you quite a ways, and will generally speed up everything, but they're just not enough to make it happen in the endgame. For that, you most commonly need handguns.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 11:31

#20

Cinoa

Even though guns might be strongest, you need practice and skill to use some like alchemers.
Even then, with practice and skill you can dodge almost any attack when using a sword.
But still, I use guns for dealing a small bit of ranged damage and swords for the most part and I do fine.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 12:34

#21

Parasthesia

We're playing as freaking

We're playing as freaking space marine tech knights from the future/alien planets who are involved in some sort of interplanetary war. Long range warfare should be the strongest.

Things to ponder: swords are good for mob manipulation where bombs might be a bad decision, against solo enemies seperate from a mob to eliminate them as threat with high dps, and up close and personal where something like a pulsar wouldn't work, and when you can't rely on shock/freeze RNG from alchemers to be on your side.

As it stands bombs are more useful as a utility in killing things with swords/guns rather than as a solo item.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 14:38

#22

Me-Luv-Ulongtime

When you're mobbed...

When it comes to being totally surrounded by enemies, there is no gun or bomb that will save you. Your small chance of survival is clearing a path with a sword to give yourself some reprieve (even if somewhat small). You can't always use your shield to escape. Heart of Ice and Ice Queen arena mobs will surround you without fail. Shields will not always push them off or sustain. No time to charge a bomb and shooting means immediate death. But there's a chance with swords to cut your way thru and escape. And as said in earlier comments, each weapon serves better in certain situations. Yet, i'd still say a sword can handle every area in the game, if somewhat slower at times. I doubt gunners or bombers (never seen a bomber make it thru Ice Queen effectively) can claim the same.

I do agree guns are stronger, considering blitz needle especially. But when it comes to practicality, swords will win.

Another point i'd like to say is, gunners are more single players. They aren't really able to save a team in need. Tho that's beside the point of this thread. Just wanted to point that out. Just my 2 cents as someone who's beaten every situation and carried his team to safety with his trusty Voltedge :)

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 17:35

#23

Fehzor

With shield bashing + dashing, the argument against guns letting you get cornered is kind of a moot point. Lets say that we played EXACTLY like we did before dash+bash, but used dashing and bashing exclusively to get out of the cornering business. This is of course, provided that the RNG hates us and gives us no stun vials, which can also be used to reliably get out of the cornering scenario. Another thing is the various sprite skills that can be used to escape or at least buy time, especially ultimates.

I've kind of come to conclusion that swords are kind of a nooby weapon in many cases (admittedly not all). An experienced player can usually find an out of being blocked in by mobs w/out a sword, leaving them more slots for guns and bombs, should they have CTR for that-- though swords do fill in some of the utility guns are missing and become a kind of semi-necessary side weapon. An experienced player doesn't need to rely on having huge damage w/ huge risk, because they realize that if that is the case, then there will inevitably come a time where their damage isn't enough and safe damage will rule out. For instance- blitz needle can one shot trojans, but sometimes it cannot. You should always be prepared to not kill things you're blitzing and instead find a means of killing the it w/out taking damage.

Sun, 05/18/2014 - 18:57

#24

Alphappy

> Cinoa: Even then, with practice and skill you can dodge almost any attack when using a sword.
While technically true, the amount of skill required for that is far greater than that required when using guns, simply because of the lack of distance and decreased mobility. Even if it didn't require more skill, your damage output suffers from the extra movement, part of the reason for the OP.

> Me-Luv-Ulongtime: Another point i'd like to say is, gunners are more single players. They aren't really able to save a team in need. Tho that's beside the point of this thread. Just wanted to point that out. Just my 2 cents as someone who's beaten every situation and carried his team to safety with his trusty Voltedge :)
You must be one of a kind, then. I have never seen any of my swordie friends beat "every situation" without also using the ER(no offense to any of you!), much less a swordie in a random PuG.

I will admit, however, that in a fair number of instances, I do find playing solo as a gunner easier than playing in a group as a gunner. The main reason is that I know exactly what every enemy is after: me. I know exactly what they're trying to attack and I can aim accordingly. That's not to say playing in a group as a gunner is difficult. I can still be reasonably sure where something is headed if a swordie's busy hacking away at it, because they probably have aggro due to a higher raw DPS. Blast bombers, on the other hand, I cannot cooperate with using guns alone.

Mon, 05/19/2014 - 19:46

#25

Shadowstarkirby

So many paragraphs~

For the most part Fehzor, I agree. Guns just fill many roles at once; DPS, burst damage, and crowd control...but with the fact that you can do this all at range.

I wouldn't go ahead and say that swords and bombs are "bad", they do shine in their own rights that make them better than guns in some way, but since guns do multiple things at once, it's hard to say that guns aren't better than them, especially when they're by themselves.

Something that swords and bombs have going for them is that they have such great chemistry with each other, that they can create the most devastating combo in the game; EV + Voltedge. Not even Blitz or Alchemers can outdo that in crowd control.

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Guns are currently the strongest weapon type