Fehzor, by that reasoning, Arcade is a waste of time compared to better alternatives like FSC, which was what basically happened during the era of mist.

Grinding: Don't misquote my numbers. Be sure to read my threads and not cherry pick whatever seems to be useful for you at the time.
I'll direct you to the "Graveyarded because it is outdated info since the last rarity drop rate buff" note at the top of the thread where you pulled my analysis of 50% longer.

Money: "Whether radiants make them more or less money on the other hand, is definitely disputable." Don't change the subject. We (including you) still don't know.

Limitations: Nope. In fact one of the major things that I like about the free elevators is that you can choose where you play. The big thing people have to get past is that you do not need to find any rarities from treasure boxes because they are all sold in the AH/SD. A player can choose to run IMF or GWW and potentially farm faster than at FSC, which was one of the only options before the update.

Is FSC still slightly better than most other places to farm? Yes. (Although timing is a key aspect as it is not the fastest farming place for me or most other players.)
What about IMF then? I noted a 1000% increase in farming for F2Pers there.

If there is anything the forge+free elevator update did with respect to limitations, it was to remove restrictions on where we decide to farm.

@Fehzor

FSC may not always give the largest amount of Radiants, but it's a solid, predictable, and quick way to earn crowns, rarities, and heat. Predictability and stability beats unpredictability and varying amounts of loot.

hmm, what about the time consumption? I love how Fehzor completely negated the time aspect of the grind, running FSC with chaos and SSB will be a breeze while running arcade will require different combination of gears (more money to make different weapons) and time to vary up the tactics against different monsters. (against slags and trolljans are easy as cake)

Death to Fehzor!

A fez for Fehzor!

I'm to scared to even comment on this thread...

"You could prove that it has more grinding than it did before, or that most people think that it has too much grinding."

Someone can't look at the numbers. I validly proved that there was an astronomical decrease in grinding for non-endgamers allowing for newer players to play and enjoy more of the game. You only hear the data that matters for you how old data showed that grinding increased for endgamers. Funny point is that the last radiant increases made this almost exactly the same.

My conclusions are that F2Pers got a significant decrease in grinding until endgame where it was about the same. P2Pers on the other hand did not.

"Is there evidence that people think that there is too much grinding? Yes. You see this all the time, when people stay far away from this entire genre. You see it when people stop crafting items and just "do what they want", and when they make threads like this."

No. Is there evidence that other players think that there is a good amount of grinding? You cannot take the sample of a handful of forumers and assume it applies to a population. The interesting thing about feedback is that you often only get the negative. How many happy players are there compared to the unhappy players that make a forum thread? Is it too much grinding? I don't know. You don't know. I think it is fair, but the honest answer is that in the end the only answer is dynamic. It would change adhere to an optimization of keeping the most players active and enjoying the game. OOO cannot make everyone happy, but their job is to make as many people happy as they can. You can voice your opinion saying you are unhappy (which you so adamantly have with all the discussion threads you have made), but you cannot factually prove that things have to change for the better of the game. All your discussions are about how OOO can make you (and other people) enjoy the game more, but may not in fact be the best for the game.

@Soulstaker

I type out against false facts and opinions being portrayed as facts. I have no intention to tell other players that their opinion is wrong (which is possibly how some of my comments are read - but it is not my intent).

OOO is terrible at working most things out in their game, although they're also terrible at listening to players advice/rants/complaints/suggestions about specific subjects.

I also, for one, think that they stealth-patched the arcade to have really bad gates. They've been real stinkers for a while now.

"And also, if I was the OOO developer, I would never listen to some guy typing behind the computer tell me how to make my game"
The problem is, it seems like people like Fehzor and Skeptic and Zeddy (and many others) know more about the frikin game than OOO does.

I think one of the main reasons that I hate what they did to Radiants is that it acts like a paywall in the worst way. You basically either have spend $$$ or grind for countless hours to level up your gear at the end. The fact that you have so many new 5* players with unheated gear and veterans who rarely craft new 5* should be enough for OOO to realize it was the wrong decision. I'm not saying Radiants need to drop like they did when the forge was new, because at that point I knew numerous people who couldn't find enough Shinings; we need a compromise. I personally would be more satisfied if Radiants still only dropped from D26-D28+ if it was a 100% chance (basically Shinings would never drop on these depths).

The drought was such a discouragement that, in the entire time the drought has been active, I've only crafted one new 5* weapon. I had previously had a good list of stuff I wanted to craft to try out, like a DA, some bombs, and alchs, but this totally trumped that. I think there are other endgame players who, like me, have enough gear to get them through any situation, but wanted to craft other stuff for the fun of using it and were largely blocked from making useful 5* gear (especially during the D28-only time period). The drought always bugged me because I always thought one of the great aspects of the game was trying out the different fun kinds of weapons and gear in general. Sure, you can still do that, but you'll probably have to stop at 4* if you want to maximize damage if you don't have the time to grind all day erry day for Radiants or are so displeased with OOO that you refuse to give them $$$. I know I'm certainly not going to pay $$$ for heating a single weapon. I always thought SK would be free of that kind of paywall.

So using energy is a form of paying OOO $$$? Yes, to get energy someone has to pay OOO. But that player doesn't have to be you.

Should I have stopped playing immediately after I noticed that I would have to pay OOO to play more than 10 depths a day (which can go really fast with non-vana depths)?
Should I have stopped playing immediately after I realized there would be no possible way for me to get 3* or higher equipment without paying OOO for energy?

Sorry, I really don't understand your complaint in the overall context of the big update. You are forgetting that you can now literally play the game and get everything without every having ANYONE contribute financially to OOO. Yes it still takes time to do things. In fact, my math showed that before the changes it took longer for the beginning stuff and about the same time for the ending stuff. The problem is that most players feel ripped off when they have to pay a high cost at the end instead of paying a medium cost continually.

I did not ignore it. I found it irrelevant.
There are currently 3 types of players - Those that don't give the game a chance, those that give the game a chance and don't like it, and those that give the game a chance and like it. This discussion is about how the update is changing players from the 3rd to the 2nd because of the update. I see no reason to bring the 1st type of player into the game because they already haven't given the game a chance.

So let me get this straight. You progressed through the game by not actually playing any content and are annoyed that in order to progress, you should play content?
My math does not take into account merchanting because it is very volatile and does not actually involve playing the core content of the game.
Just because it does not include merchanting does not mean it is wrong. I'm sorry that actually playing content in the game is more rewarding now than it previously was. Wait, no. I'm glad that actually playing content in the game is more rewarding now. My favorite part of the change was how mist rage crafting was removed (the idea of just signing on once a day and crafting lots of items on a ton of different characters and not actually playing the game at all irks me).

No, the point is not that we're losing new players, its that grinding is generally considered not to be a desirable activity by most of the humans choosing to play video games on the whole. I really didn't think that I would have to argue that grinding wasn't generally a desirable thing.

But merchanting is part of the game, right? We've always been advised to play our cards right when it comes to our money, and that includes buying and selling things when given the opportunity. Like with recipes- if you see a divine avenger recipe, you should buy it to resell it.

In response to Bopp's post.

I have only played one MMO RPG recently, and it did have a method of crafting that was encouraged much like it is in spiral knights. Other MMOs I've seen the game jsut give you gear as loot drops or making it easier to buy with ingame currency, but that's beside the point.

This other game had a lot of quests that gave you experienced and allowed you to level up at around teh same rate as the enemies around you. I only ever experienced grinding in it once, simply to level up so that I could equip a weapon that was especially suited to the next boss my and my friends had to face (Effectively the equivalent of a blitz needle in vanaduke).

The crafting system however did require some grinding, in the form of boss drops. The bosses in the other game dropped items not dissimilar to teh tokens we have. However rather than trading these tokens in they were used for crafting rare-level gear.

And now onto what I feel is most important - they had an enchanting system, using pink crystals as an 'ingredient'. This is how I would like to see the forge implimented. 5* gear should not become weaker with an upgrade - They should keep equivalent damage or a very slight loss, NOT the rather significant loss we have now.
Fire crystals should be used to make the weapons go beyond their default values, but not to broken levels.
The enchanting system was meant to make your weapons more powerful.
Our forge system is required to make our items usable in comparison to their precursors.
I feel that the forge we have is fairly bad game design, as it discourages from upgrading and progrssing, and therefore makes players unwanting to pay the money to make their items 'better'.

In my opinion, the forge issue could be fixed by simply reducing the penalty from upgrading an item to five stars. The issue we have right now is that making an item 5* is effectively a downgrade and we just spent all those orbs and crowns on making the thing 5* so why do we need to pay even more to make it so the same damage as our 4* weapon?
If 5* weapons did not have a big damage downgrade at level 1, it would give players the choice to attin max level gear and not be forced to grind radiants to make it worthwhile. People who really want their items to be the best at level 10 can still work towards it, but those who are more casual players and would be happy with a simple five star item can have just that without a penalty.

Grinding for very rare items to make your equipment the best you can is not an issue.
Grinding for very rare items to make your equipment comparible to equipment that do not require grinding for rare items, is problematic.
I hope I've made my point, and also hope that I don't recieve too much negativity.

On a side note - what if missions were moved to an elevator in the arcade rather than the missions tab on our UI? It would mean that the arcade might see more life, since new players will actually know where it is and what it does. The Arcade is not explained very well in early missions.

I would have to say that dismissing Fehzor's point about the number of people who want changes on the basis that only the forum users are vocal about such things is misguided. It infers that the people who don't discuss these things on the forums are - and I could be wrong about this, - perfectly fine with the current drop rates for Radiants. I highly doubt that is the case, however, nobody can truly know whether this is correct or not unless one of decides to run around Haven to ask players individually. So, unfortunately, all we can really rely on are the people here on the forum who are willing to give their opinion on the subject. But, even then, such opinions are incredibly divided. Some say that F2P games of this nature ought to have a grinding wall put in place in order to prevent players from becoming too strong too quickly. Others say that the grinding wall deters players from playing the game in the first place. So, is there really a problem here or not?

As one could infer from such arguments, there is very little commonality between players regarding their perspectives on grinding, meaning that whether or not somebody perceives grinding to be good or a bad this is entirely subject dependent. Essentially, whether or not the game is a grindfest is up to you, which serves to neither bolster or hinder the arguments made in support of or against the current level of grinding found within Spiral Knights. So, really, there is no amount of statistical evidence on drop rates that can objectively prove or disprove anyone's point concerning the subject. It can suggest certain things, and make certain opinions appear to be more feasible than others, but it is, by no means, a way of determining whether or not there is too much grinding within the game. As a result, its incredibly difficult to determine the right balance.

However, when you start seeing players running around with 5* gear that hasn't been completely heated for weeks, or even months at a time, there definitely is a problem. Whether or not you think the grind wall is a good or a bad thing, the financial demands and the amount of time needed to heat five or six 5* items are just unrealistic and unfair, especially when heating those items is an integral component of the game.

Adding grinding walls or paid for items is fine if it is optional content that doesn't affect gameplay drastically or create unfair balances between players. Adding such things to content that is necessary to advance in the game (without it being exorbitantly difficult) is problematic. As such, I would have to agree with some of the points being raise here, and state that the drop rates for Radiants really do need to be tweaked a little in order to make it more feasible for players to heat their 5* while also not making it too easy.

On a side note - what if missions were moved to an elevator in the arcade rather than the missions tab on our UI? It would mean that the arcade might see more life, since new players will actually know where it is and what it does.

honestly this how OOO should have implemented missions, if i recall correctly there was a thread about suggesting that missions should be added in arcade so in that way you get random quests or your missions objectives from an NPC in arcade, then after you accept your mission start.

before heating wasnt a trouble in the arcade days you can heat faster your stuff if you choose the right levels and waiting for them. so anyway people reach easy if they choose the right levels and know what they are doing.

then mission system was implemented into the game and then THATS when players started to level up quickly. they leave you in the place of the mission, you can invite anyone to any mission even if they dont meet the rank, you can do it many times as you like, so then why people who want to get quick to 5 stars would play the arcade if they have at hand the mission that can do many times they want without restrictions and leaves them in the boss level? nothing. so getting i dunno 10 items to 5 stars in 1 day was pretty possible thanks to mission since i dont have spent time doing the lame levels to reach the boss depths.

thus making energy price skyrocketing faster than arcade times, because people since you know can invite low rank knights into vanguardis missions and only play over and over again the missions that give you big chunk of crowns without effort... give tons of crowns to the market making energy raise the price.

then they removed the Mist energy system, and people were yay, and i wouldnt lie i liked it because that mean i wouldnt buy anymore my monthly ele pass just to help my friends also they could play with me anytime. but they should find a way to slow down players right? forge and wasnt bad at start i wouldnt lie too when i saw the first time the forge i say "no way this it just a bad way to level up my weapons" but thanks to the skill system and playing on elite in arcade i didnt care anymore to the forge system in fact i liked it since i always get (or well most of time) double levels. and thanks to the "skill levels" arcade give a nice amount of rarieties and crowns and since i stopped doing over and over again boss missions i didnt have the most common trouble that people have and cried everytime: "shinnings dont drop" and why? because they always did King of Ashes.

yeah right now we have the freedom to play "many levels as we want" but no the freedom to "play the levels we want" and what i mean with that?. i dont mean you cant PLAY any level but mean that why to play a level that reward you less if you can just drop into a FSC run which dont require a lot of effort?.

for example, i did tons of runs to arcade to get my radiants, why? because i enjoy playing different levels that the theme isnt "zombie + fire" but sadly requires times and even more sadly, requires that arcade generate a good gate so i can play there. time because arcade always give a lame compound and sadly on a depth that requires to 10-30 mins of waiting to change that lame level. so my arcade run that last 30 mins or 40 mins now will last 1 hour or more because i have to wait to choose the level i want to play or well: "the less worse" level to play. its not that i find hard compound levels i can do them without trouble since you know.. my whole arsenal isnt a stormtrooper set and a toothpick. the MAIN reason why i avoid those lame compounds its because the box amount relies on luck, sometimes you get 4 or sometimes you get 2. why i would play THAT level if in the end i would get 2 boxes or even worse 1 box? then i avoid compounds. but would be a different story if arcade let me rotate the elevator so i can play the level i want without wait. i mean why arcade cant have this feature? missions already let the player choose what they want to play.

and what happen? people who do arcade runs with me just prefer to leave the group and guess what? join King of ashes missions, because they can just hop in that mission anytime, they dont have to hope that "the game generate" a nice gate where you can get what you need, they dont have to wait elevator to shift worthless levels to let you play the one you want. or even better, they dont have to wait that the game generate the "levels" they want to play (i really missed my arcades gates with arena at depth 28 as only level at depth 28) even arcade clockworks are sometimes "just worthless" level to play when you know get the clockwork level that even dont have the "party button" as sign that you are on the middle of the level. you know when you get those "clockworks level" that only last 3 or 4 minutes.

so then again: its not that people were heating stuff faster, its because the mission system its bad implemented, its not like other games that give you the quest and you must go to that place in order to accomplish the mission and you can do it only 1 time. here? the mission leave you in the place you going to do the mission and you can do it maaaaany times you want. until your eyes bleeds and your body become a zombie. and even better yet the "payout" of the level never decreased it stay the same not matter how mcuh time you keep hanging there.

but oh well. would be another story if mission were implemented as that thread suggested instead the way we have them now

I would much rather grind the Arcade (and occasionally do) than FSC, but it's really annoying how the payout is (usually) lower than FSC and it takes considerably longer (usually) than FSC. I've also noticed that gates are starting to have lots of undesirable levels in them (lots of compounds). I'm not usre if this is just good ol' RNG or OOO stealthpatching the Arcade. I really wish they'd fix the Arcade to be better than (or at least comparable) to FSC or OCH, because it's far more enjoyable.
Elite T3 Gate usually nets 7-9k for me
Elite FSC usually nets 12k for me (3k for the tokens) <-- Most time effective
Elite OCH usually nets 13k for me (15k for 3 runs +25k for Mask = 40k / 3 = 13.3k)

Which is inconsistent with crowns profits, as players are erratic and usually unpredictable, whereas FSC is always guaranteed to net you over 10k in Elite if you count the tokens.