The fallout of stratum 6 and 4 star items.
Sun, 06/01/2014 - 05:52
As I have been doing research on the many dynamics and inputs to this games damage system, I have continually run into an interesting anomaly. (Don't believe me? Check out my threads in the wiki edit subforum.)
4* items increase in damage as a 5* item would.
A 0* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 1.
A 1* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 2.
A 2* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 3.
A 3* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 4.
A 4* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 6.
A 5* item will gain damage/armor/hp until the end of stratum 6.
This breaks the pattern. It is rather worthless to upgrade most shields from 4* to 5*. There are few incentives to upgrade weapons with the limited availability of radiants. I agree on the rarities, but do not agree on the comparison between 4* and 5*.
I propose that all 4* weapons, armor, and shields stop gaining power at the end of stratum 5.
Mon, 06/02/2014 - 06:13
#2
This was probably done for items that end at 4*, like winmillion and vitalux. Of course it should be fixed regardless, with these items bumped up to 5* or otherwise dealt with.
Tue, 06/03/2014 - 10:29
#3
+1
There is no reason for this to be the case (Winmillion isn't a valid enough excuse). But it makes sense as to the whole issue as to why 4* items are more efficient than 5* items.
OOO really needs to get on fixing this. Now.
Tue, 06/03/2014 - 13:38
#4
↓
Using Prismatic driver line's numbers (and knowledge of the damage calculations)...
Prismatech Alchemer Mk II makes sense on the damage tables. (to my analysis in the OP)
Prisma Driver's S6 would be changed to approximately...
Weak
N 162-156
C 322-316
Normal
N close to 96-84
C 256-244 (Dunno. The current starting damage looks incorrect)
Resist
??
Nova Driver's values remain the same.
It really isn't that much of a nerf and will not resolve the "lvl 10 4* does more damage than lvl 1 5*" but it will bring them a lot closer in stratum 6. Instead of being about the same damage between levels 5 and 8, this would likely make them have the same damage closer to levels 3-6.
Tue, 06/03/2014 - 15:53
#5
yesh
Sick of having 4* gear basically as good as my 5* gear. The f*** is the point?
+1
Tue, 06/03/2014 - 16:20
#6
+1
I always thought that this was because 0* and 1* items stopped scaling after Tier 1, 2* and 3* items stop scaling after Tier 2, and 4* and 5* items stop scaling after Tier 3.
But now that you bring up the fact that 0* and 2* items stop scaling at those respective Stratums, rather than full-tier, I couldn't help but do some tests of my own...
Found that they did indeed stop scaling, so I'm saying +1, but on top of that I'd like to add that weapons like Winmillion, Heavy Deconstructor etc should get a small damage buff to relate to 5* weapons in Stratum 6.
Wed, 07/09/2014 - 11:46
#7
↓
Ok guys.
This is going to be a big extrapolation of data.
Based on the proto sword heating curve... I'm going to estimate the nova driver heating curve.
Base damage for Nova Driver
Lvl 1:_____Lvl 2:_____Lvl 3:_____Lvl 4:_____Lvl 5:
N 176-201__N 180-206__N 184-211__N 189-216__N 198-226
C 299-331__C 306-339__C 314-347__C 321-356__C 336-372
Lvl 6:_____Lvl 7:_____Lvl 8:_____Lvl 9:_____Lvl 10:
N 211-241__N 224-256__N 237-271__N 250-286__N 264-302
C 359-397__C 381-422__C 404-447__C 426-472__C 449-497
For comparison the prisma driver's values at lvl 10 are currently:
N 253-277
C 429-471
I am suggesting the stratum 6 values would get capped around:
N 228
C 388
What we currently see right now (if my numbers are close enough)...
Is that considering the damage numbers only, the Prisma Driver is better than a newly crafted Nova Driver until level 9-10. [I would really like to test the heating curve of a 5* item to see if this is actually true.]
The change in the damage cap as I suggest would make a Nova driver better than a Prisma driver at level 6 (for D28) and always better at level 8.
Edit:
Bump
Wed, 07/09/2014 - 12:00
#8
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!
+1
This is why Nick wouldn't tell us all the secrets, eh? So we could find them and then suggest that they be fixed...? xD
(No dirt an anybody, I'm kidding! This was probably just an oversight.)
Fri, 09/19/2014 - 09:00
#9
↓
Bumping this thread for one major reason.
Anyone that wishes to craft the new kat armors should know that until this is fixed...
The 4* version is identical to the 5* version for depths below 23. Above depth 23, they only differ by minimal damage resistance and 1 additional pip of life.
Fri, 09/19/2014 - 11:10
#10
gods ain't gonna help you, son.
you are telling me that the difference between 4* and 5* kat armors is one pip of health? that's quite the oversight.
Fri, 09/19/2014 - 12:02
#11
We should probably keep Kat things in Kat threads
The suggestion is still a good one. However, we should probably keep kat related discussions in kat related threads, as not to create confusion or muddy up the front page of the suggestions subforum.
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 16:00
#12
↓
Bump.
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 16:37
#13
!
+1
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 16:51
#14
im vohtarak, call me by that name
I'm all for cutting 4* stuff down to size
+1
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 17:42
#15
If all the T3 armor lines
If all the T3 armor lines ended at 5 star then fixing this would be good, but all of them don't. Hopefully, there will be armors added to various 4 star ending lines and then this problem can be fixed.
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 18:06
#16
+1
It would also help if a level 1 5* piece of equipment was as strong if not STRONGER than it's 4* counterpart. Otherwise the progression is just f***ed up.
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 18:10
#17
While that's certainly not
While that's certainly not how things should be, and "ideally" I'd rather not have 4* gear work that way, it could be a dev throwing us a bone with how the forge system is and all. I'd be cool with 4* equipment being put in its place if gear wasn't so hard to heat.
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 18:12
#18
im vohtarak, call me by that name
There's a huge gap between 3* and 4* strength
maybe lower the 4*s power to be closer to the 3*, so the 5* is stronger compared to the 4*
Fri, 01/09/2015 - 18:46
#19
↓
The gap between 3 and 4 star gear closely resembles the gap between T2 and T3 difficulty.
Having 4* stop at S5 isnt really that much of a nerf either. It is a rather small nerf, that literally only changes the damage numbers in S6... where 5* gear should shine. As with the number example in post #4 and 7, you currently need a lvl 9 Nova Driver to beat out a lvl 10 Prisma Driver for D28. This change would make a lvl 6 Nova Driver beat a lvl 10 Prismatic Driver for D28.
The prisma driver would take about a 10-20% damage nerf for stratum 6 only [~11% for D24 scaling to ~19% for D28].
Mon, 01/12/2015 - 17:23
#20
My goodness, have not
My goodness, have not realized this oversight at all. 4*s definitely need to be cut down, this is just hideous in terms of progression. I'm still all for bumping any lines, weapon or armor, that cap out at 4*, and give a 5* variant. I'm even possibly going to be considering ideas for some sort of a 5* Cautery Sword or so.
Mon, 01/12/2015 - 19:39
#21
.....
OOO made it this way so that completing the game with certain items (winmillion, heavy deconstructor, Vitasuit deluxe) wouldn't require that the player start a totally new line of weapon.
Regardless this was still a bad idea, these item lines should finish at 5 star along with several others that were abandoned on the way.
@ Midnight-violet
This old thing?
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/99598
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 17:41
#22
@Holy-Nightmare
I was
@Holy-Nightmare
I was actually thinking of giving it shadow/normal with fire status and it still has the Slime High bonus on it
It'll do less shadow damage than Acheron but slightly more normal damage than it.
I realize this is redundant since we already do have a brandish line that deals fire status, but stun doesn't work too well with Slimes to begin with (Given that's the intended target enemy for Cautery line anyway,) but I do feel fire is a bit more beneficial to it than the stun status. I do think certain swords need to deal stun however, or do need lines for stun, certainly would like Leviathan's charge to at least do stun (I'm looking at you Celestial Saber, bleh.)
I'm just not too sure about giving Cautery stun, I would prefer more making an entirely new Brandish line dedicated to stun.
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 18:28
#23
+1
Should be fixed
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 18:48
#24
@ Midnight-violet
Making it shadow type would get rid of the one thing it is better at than the Acheron (killing silkwings). A normal/stun Brandish would be viable everywhere, the slime perk is just to give it an area it does slightly better in.
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 19:31
#25
@Holy-Nightmare
I only
@Holy-Nightmare
I only suggested it due to the fact that Cautery Sword was intended to be used against slimes, so I was thinking of giving it stats to be built around that. I all means I would at least like a stun Brandish at some point, preferrably one that's normal damage.
Also to be honest, I was thinking of other stuff like Heavy Deconstructor's 5* to get elemental damage as well, since it gives a construct damage bonus.
(And since we lack a proper elemental bomb that specializes in dealing pure damage, besides usual Crystal Bomb.)
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 21:14
#26
↓
@Holy-Nightmare + Midnight-Violet
Wrong thread for that discussion. Stop. Move it to the other thread.
Tue, 01/13/2015 - 22:41
#27
@Skepticraven
This is
@Skepticraven
This is entirely of my doing, I will be heading back into discussion
Has this gap always been here? I have not noticed this even when the forge and rarities were not implemented.
Wed, 01/14/2015 - 05:13
#28
im vohtarak, call me by that name
I made a deconstructor suggestion but a total of 2 people commented on it
And its really not much of a Nerf to implement this, even for the things that stop at 4*
Wed, 01/14/2015 - 11:46
#29
@Skepticraven
Actually if fits in a bit with my other posts.
As I stated before some items end their lines before the 5 star range. The reason for 4 stars being powerful in the same places as 5 stars is that SK didn't want to punish a player who invested in a bad line too much. Still it would have been smarter and nicer to not penalize the player at all and just make 5 star versions of everything (except swiftstrike and breaker sets).
If these lines that got stopped short ended up with 5 star versions there would be less of an excuse for the current system. Instead the only excuse would be the difficulty of obtaining radiants.
Wed, 01/14/2015 - 12:10
#30
↓
@Holy-Nightmare
Yes, mentioning how some lines terminate at 3/4* are relevant to this discussion. Lets be clear on that - The "breaker" armors/shields also terminate at 3*. These might also be in need of 4/5* versions.
This isn't the thread to make those suggestions, though. Link to another suggestion with those? Sure. Carry on discussion in this thread? No.
This topic is about S6 4* item nerfs, not about the damage type suggestion of a theoretical 4/5* cautery sword.
Wed, 01/14/2015 - 13:07
#31
@ Skepticraven
The Surge and Fire breaker sets are outclassed by the Grey Owlite set, the Ice breaker set is one of the few Freeze/elemental sets (Bombastic is a thing). Five star versions would have to be ramped up to compete.
The breaker sets come with Maximum penalties so if they were to carve out a place as 5 star armors they would have to Provide COMPLETE immunity to their status.
Firebreak would be the FOV spammer's best friend
Surgebreak would be the ultimate shock counter in PVP
Icebreak would make Silversaps a trivial threat.
_____________________________________________________________
The whole "problem" in this thread should be fixed after the "radiant problem" is fixed, and all the cut short items finally get their endgame 5 star variant.
If we didn't have the above problems then I would completely support this proposal, sadly I don't think SK is going to make any endgame items for these lines anytime soon.
Wed, 01/14/2015 - 13:07
#32
Posting here again because yes
This suggestion is still one that would be good. Things that stop at 4* are special in their own way. Winmillion stops there as it's a normal-damage gun-sword. It doesn't do a great job at being a sword, nor does it do a great job of being a gun. Same thing with the tortoguns. They aren't great, but that doesn't mean they're unusable.
However, this just means that the winmillion will take one or two more hits than before to kill something in depth 28. If it took you 10 hits before to kill something and it gets nerfed in depth 28 by ~19%, then you lose 2 hits. With a winmillion, it attacks fast enough for those two hits to connect in under a second, plus if you're using a winmillion at that depth you either are skilled with it or have no idea what you're doing.
It's not a huge nerf to the 4* items, but it is a reasonable buff to the 5* items that are outclassed by their 4* variants for a long time.
Mon, 02/09/2015 - 10:00
#33
↓
New numbers:
Recently finished the 5* heating curve, and it isn't the same as 0* items.
Going with the previous weps compared... Prisma Driver and Nova Driver:
D24 Prisma Driver Charge Lvl 10 vs weak monster:
363 damage
D24 Nova driver Charge Estimate [+/-2 damage] vs weak monster:
Lvl 1: 294
Lvl 2: 297
Lvl 3: 303
Lvl 4: 308
Lvl 5: 317
Lvl 6: 330
Lvl 7: 342
Lvl 8: 355
Lvl 9: 369
Lvl 10: 383
Nova only deals more damage at lvl 9.
Proposed D24 Prisma Driver Charge lvl 10 vs weak monster:
322
Nova would deal more damage starting at lvl 6.
Mon, 02/09/2015 - 11:02
#34
So I had a thought for this thread since it's easily the best (and proper) fix for gear and heat regardless of how rare radiant fire crystals are, and it goes like this- not all weapons are equal, and in particular your fix would do nothing for weapons like the haze bombs and at least far less for weapons like nova driver that rely heavily on their charge. To address this, it would be nice if we could alter the way charge time reduction is handed out with weapons.
0-4* weapons wouldn't change-
Level 1, 4* and below = 0 charge time reduction
Level 5, 4* and below = 1 CTR
Level 10, 4* and below = 2 CTR
But then at 5*-
Level 1, 5* = 1 CTR
Level 5, 5* = 2 CTR
Level 10, 5* = 2 CTR
You could also plausibly give 3* and 1* weapons the same fix, since they get a large increase in power/radius etc. at 2/4* due to ranking up in tier, and you could further have 5* weapons get a third level of CTR if you were really so inclined, as that would help out bombers massively but this thread isn't about either of those things, it's about the transition from 4* to 5* only and I don't intend to change that.
Mon, 02/09/2015 - 12:47
#35
↓
I disagree that CTR is really needed at lower levels for haze bombs.
Does it help? Yes.
What would that change do?
Give close to no incentive to ever haze bombs past lvl 5.
Both 4* and 5* inflict the same status, one has a significantly larger size but a lower CTR until you fully heat it. I think that bombs are handled well in that respect.
Shard bombs, on the other hand, do not see any sort of size changes from 4-5*. But CTR at lower levels wont fix that problem. That is a completely different beast to tackle.
Mon, 02/09/2015 - 13:47
#36
Hmm, that is true. I guess that really we need them to do some sort of a "bomber update" to address the whole bomb-heat issue where bombs are useless without CTR while guns/swords are immediately useful via not relying entirely on charges.
Mon, 02/09/2015 - 16:55
#37
Warning: Superiority Complex.
Nice bit of research.
+1
Tue, 02/10/2015 - 06:35
#38
Potato
+1
Since this information is out there, it would be good for OOO to fix it, or it may keep people from upgrading their gear, and if OOO does release a new 5* armor/helm/weapon, then it will possibly be a waste of a lot of effort as not many people may craft it at this point(if they know about this).
Tue, 02/10/2015 - 16:26
#39
but what if...
they added a 7 stratum e.i the core and beyond where 5 star increases but for star don't?
and this would mean increase rads rate dropping as well?
STRATUM 7 CONFRIMED: THE CORE AND BEYOND
Edit: THIS IS THE ARCADE REDUX COMFRIMED !?!?!?!?!?!?!?? maybe
but if not +1
Tue, 06/02/2015 - 07:32
#40
+1
I will admit that I have been hiding behind the strength supplied in leveling up 4* weapons. Such is also a reason why I have not bothered with a Blitz, I find it to be marginally effective in the lowest stratum.
While I might have missed all of the discussion, am I right to assume that the maximum damage output be capped for 4* weapons up to the end of Stratum 5 and in exchange, raise the damage output for 5* weapons? I would be in full agreement if I could see a way to come unto... nope. No second thought about it. I agree.
I can also admit that, upon running through my earlier and later T3 missions after the crafting orb rarities were released, I come upon my fair share of Eternal Orbs of Alchemy. That is not to say that I have an abundance but I speak to the surplus for how much I desire to hold onto. Furthermore, the 4* forging crystals come a lot easier to me, giving me a greater means of preparing my 4* weapons to be upgraded to its final form.
Providing that others have had similar experiences as myself with finding 4* Shining Forge Crystals and 5* Eternal Orbs of Alchemy, I'm all for it.
Thu, 06/04/2015 - 19:37
#41
This..
I actually felt this was happening in my bones figuratively speaking sense I have upgraded many weapons to 5 star and felt how the damage output declined right after the upgrade then rose up after the weapon was fully heated. I felt too lazy and unmotivated to start a graph chart of these mathematical numerical values, so I am glad you have done this research for all to see the apparent problem. The incline in damage value after the weapon has reached 5 star is just too minimal and makes the weapon feel like the amount you paid for this improvement is just not worth it. But nonetheless, in my opinion we mostly all upgrade our weapons to 5 star regardless because we like to be end-game players and have the best gear possibly can have in the game. So if this problem was fixed, more players will feel the actual real benefit of having a 5 star weapon and will be even more incline to upgrade even if we mostly all already do upgrade our weapons, at least it will be balanced from the players perspective.
+1
That is messed up.
Fix it naow.