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Why are Invinci-tinks even a thing?

22 replies [Last post]
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 03:07
Paintool's picture
Paintool

I don't like to throw my opinion around, but why should enemies even be invincible after doing what your supposed to do?
"Because it kills them too fast"
Then why not rebalance the damage output accordingly?
"It would defeat the purpose of 5* functionality and output"

Is that really all there is to it?

Shard bombs, new torto guns, and barriers are more or less effective because they make killing enemies take longer?
My statistics show that the longer you live, the more likely you are to be hit by something eventually.
They all have invinci-tinks.

But if your alive playing this game with shard bombs, that's no good.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 04:21
#1
Zaffy-Laffy's picture
Zaffy-Laffy

Just blitz your way through.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 04:56
#2
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Yes, it's counter-intuitive and generally awful for an action game, not to mention that OOO has only completely unjustifiably implemented it for a few things. There's no reason to have it on some weapons, while not implementing it for the most OP ones like DR, Blitz, and Brandishes.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 05:16
#3
Blazzberry's picture
Blazzberry
SCP-96

Damn you Paint I was going to make this thread later. :<

But yes, I agree with you 1000%. These tinky dinkles just ruin everyone's fun. Really trying my hardest to keep conspiracy theories to myself, but I think its just not fixable at this point just like how a hot key for the gate map was never added.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 06:08
#4
Gigaslash's picture
Gigaslash
dayum

Them tinks are ruining all the fun in using da torts gun charge D;

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:10
#5
Shidara's picture
Shidara
I find it truly perplexing

I find it truly perplexing that such a thing should even have to exist in this game. Even more perplexing do I find that it has been applied to;
a) a consumable pick-up item that produces low-to-moderate damage-output and is primarily used to inflict status ailments,
b) a schrapnel-type bomb that one would think rewards smart placement to hit an enemy with as many shards as possible, yet negates all damage if you get would-be optimal results,
c) a fairly moderate yet brief damage-over-time field that you would be lucky to even put an enemy in for long enough to trigger invinci-tinks, and
d) a sprite-skill that fires a narrow beam with a very low damage output.

Yet, this does not apply to weapons with;
a) very powerful directional blasts that can push the enemy along five explosions for massive damage,
b) a bomb that creates two circling spheres to deal relatively low damage at a very high rate that can easily be chained for devastating results that can cover multiple enemies, or
c) a very powerful handgun that fires fifteen bullets dealing moderate-to-high damage for outrageous damage that is guaranteed to kill any single enemy, with exception of bosses, at point-blank range and otherwise can deal high damage to groups of enemies.

I would really like some inside information behind this design philosophy. Not only is the overall damage potential crippled, but I'd be surprised to truly see these weapons compete with the big head honchos even without invinci-tinks. Yet, here they are. Transforming a would-be good weapon into a mediocre or sub-standard one. Not even a terrific weapon, not a fantastic weapon, just a would-be good weapon. Maybe it could even be great, but as it stands we will never know.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:50
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Placing the Shocking salt

Placing the Shocking salt bomb just in the right spot of the JK battle should be highly rewarding instead he gets a little over a 3rd of the damage he would take due to invinciticks, yep spamming DR is far more rewarding.

Also we don't get invinciticks from certain enemies,

Alpha wolvers (3 bites)
Battlepod lasers (dear glob)
Roarmulus lasers (ditto)
Arkus orbs
Gremlin Demo
Deadnaught charges (hits multiple times if you're unlucky)
Scarabs and Glop drops (wth guys)
Wheel Launcher and Shankle (as if the knockback from the launcher wasn't bad enough in a fire infested citadel)
Harvester (totally OP gaze that probably could have invinciticks added for easy but not intermediate or elite)

Note: I don't know the other difficulty names because I never play them

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:13
#7
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Credited to Holy-Nightmare.

Truly, though, I don't know what they were thinking with Invincitinks. They are terrible in a game like this.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:40
#8
Corewalker's picture
Corewalker
Just remove them.

They serve no purpose other than to waste time, hiss.

many of the items that cause the "tinks" do damage at a much lower rate than Dark Retribution or Blitz, as stated above.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:16
#9
Paintool's picture
Paintool
Conspiracy Theory: "They just

Conspiracy Theory:

"They just want you to spend more time playing the game."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apart from the obvious, why would implementing them be a good thing?
This feature wouldn't be implemented if it weren't justified in some way?
Enemies have a certain amount of health at any given depth, and designers don't want you to breeze through the game all the time.

Imagine then for a moment invinci-tinks were added to Blitz and Brandish series.

Suddenly the game now has "more hours of gameplay", but the staple popular weapons aren't used anymore.
It would send Spiral Knights back to the dark ages with Argent Peacemakers and Divine Avengers, simply because people want to get the bang for their buck and time invested.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conspiracy Theory 2:

"The game will prefer some weapons and play styles more than others."

AKA

"whens the last time you've seen a 100% bomber?"

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:34
#10
Blitz-Winger's picture
Blitz-Winger
What Paint said ^

Paintool brings up a neat point. But i have have a better theory.

Conspiracy Theory:

"Illuminati made it"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burn the evidence.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:48
#11
Pandafishie's picture
Pandafishie

@Blitz
I think you mean Illuminaughty made it.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:04
#12
Nurdell's picture
Nurdell
Remember those days when

Remember those days when something went wrong and all the invincibility frames turned off? Those were the days (in lockdown) And anything that left a pool of shock permalocked you. On a side note: if they'll ever turn off invincibility frames and shorten the fuse time of shards (and well, fix shards not appearing) I won't need any other weapons anymore, they will be just too good.
I believe making the tortoguns have invinci-ticks is to reduce randomness. All the shards can potentially land in one tight group and instakill enemies, big ones in particular. And we all know that it was too awesome on shard bombs to exist.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 00:35
#13
Mtax-Forum's picture
Mtax-Forum
^

U wot m8. Polaris still does not have invicitinks. Nice false story, tell it to your grandchildren someday.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 09:25
#14
Terrifying-Pancake's picture
Terrifying-Pancake
I tried a max dmg, level 6,

I tried a max dmg, level 6, nether cannon on depth 28 elite solo i. A decon zone (or maybe D27).

The charge is quite fun there, does some great damage. The invincitinks nmake sense, because one hitting everything is the FoVs job.

But srsly, the gun aint half bad.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 15:13
#15
Welux's picture
Welux

It's simply just a bad design decision.
Or one of the bugs that have been present for a good while. the weapons effected by it wouldn't even be overpowered, if invincitinks were not present, they'd just be good additions to the arsenal and pretty useful.

But, invincitinks kinda ruins the fun of the new gun, even though it does trap enemies to some degree, and it's a new artillery style weapon, without invinvitinks it would be a very good support and solo weapon for use at longer ranges to bombard large groups of enemies.
Heck, maybe it could be viable for FSC, which would be quite nice to change the current meta-setup required.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 05:23
#16
Shadow-Anubis's picture
Shadow-Anubis
why ? Why ?! WHY ???????

I'm agree in 100% Why ? why ? why ??????????????????
Blitz have most awesome charge and haven't got invincy-thing...
Tortofist's charge deal falling DMG + just 3 hits from shards... why ? WHY ? Charge knock back so is really small chance to block anemy.

OK, I know you don't want too OP wepons BUT make 5-7 hits no 3, It will still won't be too OP but will be more useful; just make shards hit few more times, please !

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 06:11
#17
Drischa's picture
Drischa

@Welux it's already viable for FSC.

I honestly think that Invincitinks are a limitation of the game's engine. the amount of compaints that they recieve should warrent them removal if possible, however as they have not been removed I think it jsut has to eb assumed that removing them is not possible.

Perhaps a game master could enlighten us on this subject? This is the kind of thing we would like to know from them. Why do we have this counter-intuitive mechanic in place?

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 12:49
#18
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I think that there is a time and a place for invincitinks, and that they're a bit too prevalent on certain things.

Shard bombs: Should probably not have invincitinks, as their damage is kind of pathetic and the mechanic just goes to make the bombs even worse, penalizing good play.

Barrier pickups: I can see why this would be a thing, but at the same time if you're able to get consistently next to an enemy, then you deserve to do the damage. I would rather the barriers deal more status effect and less damage, but not have invincitinks.

Seraphynx's Beam of Light: I'm not certain of how they want us to use this skill, or what its supposed to do. I am able to use it effectively to drill through rocks and ice fragments during certain fights (like Maulos), but its worthless for dealing damage-- especially compared to Drakon's fireball and Maskeraith's needles. I think removing the invincitinks would make the skill usable for dealing damage, but perhaps there is some utility benefit that I'm missing out on, and damage isn't its primary concern; like pushing mobs back, which is also messed up by invincitinks.

Tortoguns: I think the invincitinks here are almost entirely warranted. I am able to consistently trap enemies every few charges, and I deal a ton of damage already when this occurs; removing invincitinks would basically insta-kill even large mobs, like the jelly king, vanaduke, tortodrones, giant lichen colonies, you name it. You could argue that they should just nerf the damage and remove the invincitinks altoghether, but then mobs walking into the spikes that weren't trapped wouldn't take much damage at all, and the weapon wouldn't function properly. Making invincitinks activate after a few more hits would be nice, however... mostly because pushing mobs into the spikes deals some damage, but launching more shots onto them is a better tactic altogether.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 13:12
#19
Exerpa's picture
Exerpa
Sources of damage can be

Sources of damage can be either singular events or distributed over a period of time.

As barrier pickups and Torto shards can distribute damage over time, they need a way to make single collisions do non-trivial damage and at the same time prevent perfectly placed sources from draining mob health completely. Without a hit limit then you could just circle around mobs with a barrier or pin large mobs down while the life drains out of them. If the damage was lowered then you would need to dedicate yourself to perfect collisions over the life time of the source to make it worthwhile.

On the other hand, Shard bombs don't distribute damage over time despite multiple hits being their central nature. I guess instead of being 'just a bunch of shards', the shard ring is supposed to function as a single entity distributed over space rather than time. Except that, you know, trying to land multiple shards on anything that isn't half the size of the bomb itself doesn't seem very likely.

Sun, 07/20/2014 - 01:33
#20
Fe-Tarkus
For Tortoguns

They probably imported the code for Lava Tiles and reversed it for it to affect Monsters instead of Players, but don't want it to instagib Monsters stuck in them, the way Lava Tiles instagib players when they're caught it them. iono... this ineligant design seems fishy fishy to me.

Sun, 07/20/2014 - 03:31
#21
Shidara's picture
Shidara
@Fehzor

If the beam was not intended for dealing damage (even if it is considerably weaker than the others) then why is there an Ultimate forme dedicated to increasing damage against fiends and undead? Having the invinci-tinks there just further devalues this upgrade in addition to the fact that the other one is a defence-debuff that works on all mobs and affects all forms of damage infliction save fire. Even more questionable design decisions...

Sun, 07/20/2014 - 05:24
#22
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

The better question would be why the skill intended to deal better damage to fiends and undead only does better damage to fiends and undead when that sprite is using the harness designated to kill them; i.e. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/90084

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