Spiral Knights - Rooms and Expansions

Rooms and Expansions

27 replies [Last post]

Thu, 07/31/2014 - 20:38

Dracora-Speaking

They're a mess - tables, categories, icon/image filenames... Fixing things up. Feel free to add suggestions here and on discussion pages.

Largest issue: rooms are not expansions. expansions are not rooms.

I have a feeling that these problems still exist because nobody went through and made the actual pages and had to use any of the templates consistently - so hello, nest of problems! Now that I've tried to use the existing templates.

After the cleaning process is done, generating pages for the rooms (which...don't...exist...yet...*eye twitch*)...should be pretty easy.

EDIT:
Fixed several of the icon image file names - many of them lacked "icon" at the end of the file name, so some of the main room images were showing up in the icon slot on the main "rooms and expansions" list.

Tweaked templates to display icons in an unusual but functional manner - coders will probably see it and giggle. "Nova, you're so busy-lazy!" Anyway, reasoning for this is in case someone decides that the icons should be named differently in the future - less template breakage on the surface. It lets us use the same icons for different things - for example, the "5F West Wing" uses the same icon as the "1F West Wing." Uploading repeats seems silly - we can just upload an icon later if it's changed, instead of uploading the same icon several times. This has always bothered me with accessories, and it used to bother me with gear (but then the gear got their own icons, amazing!).

Revamped the Rooms and Expansions list. It's easily sortable by various bits of information now. Could easily divide into a list for Rooms and a list for Expansions, example on the Themes and Environments page. Whichever people prefer. T&E is still a WiP - I'd like to get some APNGs of guild halls with the various settings, and in a table. But that's likely a long ways down the road. Anyone who feels like doing that, go for it. Keep them all the same dimensions blahblahblah.
EDIT: divided "Rooms and Expansions" page into "Room (Guild Hall)" and "Expansion (Guild Hall)" pages. Set up the "Rooms and Expansions" page for deletion - went through and removed/fixed links as needed. Created a couple of disambiguation pages.

Created a general page format for Rooms. Went through and made individual room pages and put some info/links/categories on them. Added several room images. For empty rooms, did something a little different - a gallery - see the "Empty Room" page. Will revisit later.
Edit: did a table instead of a gallery. That's just easier and more standardized - I just thought to myself "empty rooms that don't have standard flooring are pretty much like recolored accessories."

Uploaded icons for Themes and Environments. These are easy to do compared to costume icons, so don't get too excited about that elephant in the room.
EDIT: Divided the "Themes and Environments" page into "Theme (Guild Hall)" and "Environment (Guild Hall)" pages. Turned the "Themes and Environments" page into a Gallery sort of page for images of combinations - would love to replace with APNG some day.

I'm not sure what to do about "upkeep" column - for most of these, it's 0. But hey, they could one day make it be constantly costly to constantly condition your hall to freezing and below for cooling chamber. Well, can't know for sure, I'd say take this column out where possible cause this scenario seems unlikely, but I'm leaving it in for now.
EDIT: made some more specific templates. No longer an issue.

This all feels rather steamrolled (or something like that) because I got fed up with a few things and was just a bit sad that nobody had given this much attention (then again, I'd rather attention be given to gameplay than aesthetics). Also did another huge editing session....

Anyway, I'm very tired now, and probably made some mistakes, so hobby-proofreaders and authenticators, have at it.

Edit: did some cleaning, hence the plethora of tiny edits. *Offers other wiki editors half a bottle of Windex.* Squeaky squeaky.

Fri, 08/01/2014 - 06:52

Bopp

sounds good

I have nothing particular to say (except on the individual pages that I watch, such as Hunter's Lodge). So I'll just say that this is a lot of work, and thanks for doing it.

Sat, 08/02/2014 - 21:53

Dracora-Speaking

Yey

Thanks Bopp. It was a lot of work. That's probably why nobody really did it yet ;P

Decided to divide things into different pages entirely. Hurray, more work!

Edit: heh, this resolved my "upkeep column" problem.

As far as the Hunter's Lodge goes, it's a room - so let's limit the information on its page to the actual room itself, and link to all relevant places like Machines, Characters, and Trophies.

Sat, 08/02/2014 - 17:15

Dracora-Speaking

Bahaha

Atalanta talked with me in-game about an Expansion issue: there was some confusion with 5F wing (east and west) details, they should fix it up soonish. Went through and fixed/removed various links as needed.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 00:26

Bopp

fragmentation

As far as the Hunter's Lodge goes, it's a room - so let's limit the information on its page to the actual room itself, and link to all relevant places like Machines, Characters, and Trophies.

This idea makes sense, but it leads to having gazillions of tiny wiki pages with very little content. If the Armero Alchemy Machine exists only in this one room, then why not include it in the page? It is at least 80% of the point of the room.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 02:57

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

It's more following the standards that are present in the rest of the Spiral Knights Wiki. There might one day be another place for this alchemy machine (highly unlikely) - so it would need its own page...why not just follow the pattern of other special alchemy machines now? Example: the Krogmo Coin Machine has very few locations, but it has its own page. If one day there's a guild alliance area or something, and it has its own trophy machine, would you link to the hunter's lodge? That doesn't work so well. Again, very unlikely scenario. Another example: Sanctuary Alchemy Machine. That's definitely in just one spot, but it has its own page, not a redirect like the Armero machine had. Honestly, I don't want machine recipe visuals on a page that I'm going to to look at an area for (we've done an overlap on "The Sanctuary" page, which I don't like) - but I still want as much relevant information as possible. So we link. It's a pattern to follow.

There's not a gazzillion tiny pages anyway, there's about...3. The Room, Armero (Knight), and the Machine. Individual trophy pages are of course there, but that's because any item that has its own recipe has its own page - used to be only gear.

I'm all for condensing things on the wiki. I worked extensively with furniture and costumes to do that (before, most recolored pieces had their own pages). But there's some things that are just too large and too much of their own thing.

One thing I'd like to condense are all the pages people made for the Sprite Abilities. Just search "firebolt" to see what I mean.

What's your IGN? I'm online now, that's a better way to talk. "Novaster" is my IGN.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 04:17

Bopp

not gazillion, but 19

I meant that applying this fine-grained approach to the whole wiki would lead to gazillions of pages.

We are basically talking about a very simple idea: You can decorate your guild hall with boss trophies. As it stands, there are 19 wiki pages to support this one idea: Hunter's Lodge, Armero, Armero Alchemy Machine, the 12 boss furniture pages, and the 4 boss materials.

I would merge them down to one page. But I know that I am more "mergist" than other people, so I'm happy to compromise. And you're doing a lot of this work and I'm not, so the compromise should favor your position. And the idea that there should be systematic, uniform wiki pages for each entity in the game is quite reasonable.

If you want to understand my position more, you need to know that I spend a lot of time answering player questions on the forums. Here is a typical example. A player wants Divine Avenger. He reads the wiki page, and learns that he can get it at Basil. Then he goes to the forums and asks which Basil, where --- even though the Divine Avenger wiki page links to the Basil page, which explains the difference between depth 13 and depth 23. Many players simply cannot be bothered to click one extra link. And actually I sympathize with them. It's not as if the Divine Avenger wiki page is over-full with crucial information. More information could easily be added, to make it a one-stop source of all information related to Divine Avenger. And this wouldn't even be difficult to maintain, with judicious use of templates.

Perhaps a good compromise solution is this: We have a wiki page about each individual entity in the game, such as each boss furniture, Armero, etc. But we also allow articles to overlap in their coverage. And in particular we allow one article, probably Hunter's Lodge, to act as a one-stop source of all crucial reference information related to the idea of decorating your guild hall with trophies.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 13:02

Dracora-Speaking

Hmm

Okay, sure - overlap is great, but, it can lead to clutter. And naaaaaw, things should favor what the people want - some day, someone will see all my work and just be like, huh, gonna make it even better! What's best is to try to maintain webwide wiki standards in the face of a game that is still basically in Beta - stuff changes all the time. People who write articles on math on wikipedia don't have to change much, haha.

So we have fragmentation, overlap, condensing.

Fragmentation - users are not as happy, but there's less for us as editors to update.
Overlap - users get more information faster, but we have to update more things if things change. MAYBE. (See below).
Condensing - fine details might be lost if this isn't done properly.

No more redirects for things large enough to have their own pages. DO redirects for things that I call "recolors" but have different names/shades on the wiki - you know, things that look exactly the same in form, have the exact same description, but someone spray-painted some of them to look green or w/e - Frosty/Hallow/Hunter/blahblah Draped Armor is an example. These don't get their own pages. Acies, Myself, and a few other editors scrunched all of these together. I applied the technique to the Empty Room.

Then you have large things, that can change if the game updates. They get their own page, AND they can be on other pages if editors desire overlap (which is not 100% condensing, 100% is when you redirect - Referring directly to the fact that the Armero machine had a redirect, which made me shoooo shaaaad). This way, detailed notes and misc. facts (like when it was introduced to the game, if it was ever moved, changelogs, etc.) can be on the main pages without cluttering up associated pages, and associated pages can give people the rudimentary/ immediately relevant information they want.

1) updating every page that has overlap with new information is annoying. What if you miss a page? But I might have a solution for this.

I've been experimenting with "see also" templates -
What if...
Instead of the table on the page...
we have a {{ }} that leads to a template...of a template...
So the {{ }} template page just has the Recipe table. You stick that {{ }} on any page you want, but then...THEN YOU ONLY NEED TO UPDATE THE {{ }} PAGE. AMAZING.
will test.

EDIT: it's alliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive! What do you think? If you like it, apply it to other pages that are relevant, like the Sanctuary Alchemy machine and so on.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 15:06

Bopp

I know

I know that avoiding redundant information is desirable, for the sake of maintainability. This is a valid argument against overlapping content. The argument in favor of overlapping content is that it really, really helps readers. In general, optimizing too much for editors may make the readers suffer.

By the way, this argument does not necessarily apply to my ideal, which would be to have one article on the entire topic of decorating your guild hall with boss trophies. Depending on how the game changes, it might be easier to update one big page, rather than 19 tiny pages.

What is "alliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive"? What page am I supposed to inspect?

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 15:34

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

One of these should be on the hunter lodge + armero machine page...if it isn't updated for you yet, I've made a cat page:

Category: Single Update Templates

This should solve the "I don't want to constantly update multiple pages every time the game changes things that happen to be on those pages" problem for a variety of things - we should only have to do the picky, meticulous row-by-row details on just the template page. This chops out a copy/paste step, but it also reduces the number of opportunities for mistakes to be made when bulk copy/pasting as well, since it would eliminate bulk copy/pasting!

It will look very interactive and be useful for users, and easy for us editors - I think this is the best compromise between fragmentation/overlap/condensing issues.

I'm pretty certain this category doesn't exist yet, but sorry if it does already! Just change the tags in the "noinclude" sections on each template to get them in an established category, if I missed it.

Sun, 08/03/2014 - 15:24

#10

Sir-Pandabear

I have learnt much about templates today. Lemme know if you have any questions about them.

It also helps to read these mediawiki pages:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Variables
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Parser_functions_in_templates

Mon, 08/04/2014 - 00:23

#11

Bopp

Dracora-Speaking

Dracora-Speaking, I'm looking at the Hunter's Lodge page again. My honest opinion is that it is far less useful to me (and the average player trying to help his guild craft boss trophies) than it was a week ago. Now it's basically a portal page, full of links and devoid of useful information.

In case it's not clear, I'm looking for a table (or other simple, clean, concise instrument) that summarizes all boss tokens, boss materials, and boss furnitures in no more than ten lines of wiki page space. That's what I regard to be a useful reference. We have had two different versions of it over the past week. Both were fine with me. Now we have none.

By the way, I'm trying to be constructive and respectful, not petty or argumentative.

Mon, 08/04/2014 - 08:31

#12

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

Ah well, the process led to a useful (somewhat risky) kind of template that can be used around the wiki in specific spots, so that's good!

You could make a Guide-style page that has all the things you want on it - that way, you have all the information you're wanting to give (all the stuff you've mentioned in this thread's comments and more I assume) on it. Guide pages are wonderful, ultra user-friendly...nodes! Link to this guide on the Hunter's Lodge page, as well as the Machine's page. Perhaps on the Amero page, but that's not so useful, that's getting to the "where do we draw the line on similar pages" that we had with the "see also" template for gear. Anyway...

My main issue with it is the seemingly fundamental disorganization of it.

Wiki-style, you shouldn't have too much "tangent detail" on pages - even if the target "tangent details" are only directly related to that page's topic, as they currently are with Boss Trophies. There are patterns to follow - 1 tangent or 1000, follow the pattern! This is because choosing which relatable-subject-page to be the "main" page of all tangential (and/or directly related) pages is rather arbitrary and leads to inconsistencies over time.

For example, you've decided to use the Hunter's Lodge as the "main" page, but someone else with your exact same stance could have chosen the Armero Alchemy Machine as the main page. Get what I mean? I think your pattern is using the location of the machine as the fusion point, but this logic partially breaks as soon as the machine has more than one location. Trying to make patterns is fine, we create beaten paths by forging ahead and turning back and looking at compasses and so on, thus we have patterns old and new. And then that leads to my Overlap solution with those templates.

A page has a title, and the content on that page should be pretty much stuff directly about that title. Then you link. A wiki lets us links things together - I picture each page like an Atom, and a wiki is a cellular life form. That is the joy that is a wiki - it can evolve and change, and is more useful than a rigid Database in terms of user-friendly behavior. But that's because it's made by users - for users. Compared to the Database, we (as a wiki) have redirects for lowercase letters and community slang, disambiguation pages for potentially confusing "like-terms", and a MUCH better %relevance search, and so on. Again, this is because Users have made them. Which leads to my final point:

Catering to user confusion is good...buuuuuut too much leads to less of a wiki and more of a google search (google by the way, if you didn't know, adjusts itself to each individual as that individual searches and explores the internet over time) - a Wiki is somewhere between a google search and a Database. So what Bopp wants is to be useful, but IMO, it's breaking too much of the wiki way. But hey, I've broken plenty of rules trying to flesh things out. It's the result that is going to be used for the next however-many-months-or-years-it-is-until-it-changes-completely that matters.

We have older patterns to follow - which might be rendered completely obsolete as the game changes. Then you have different kind of issues, as I mentioned with Sprite Abilities. These can be condensed, certainly. But how best to do that might not directly follow previous standards, because well..they're their own, newer thing. We had to reformat a ton of stuff to adjust for costumes. Some costumes were very old, but some were much more recent and followed very different patterns - notice on the main costume page how many different costume organization pages we have. This is an effort to get people where they want to go, in case they don't know exactly what a thing is called. (and honestly I'm going to be going through fixing links to the Unique Forms page - that is a silly page since most unique forms have their own page, and linking to sections in the actual Groups page is much more consistent and informative. I wish to destroy the Unique Forms page. I digress.)

TL;DR: Wiki vs. Usefulness: make a guide page. I'd really suggest making a guide page. That probably solves most user-confusion related problems. Just have a lot of attention-drawing to it on pages that have links to the guide page. If you make a guide page, remove the "economics of boss trophies" from the Armero Alchemy Machine page and stick it on the guide instead.

It's good to discuss things like this <3. And well, as far as tone goes, you're fine, but that's because I know your intentions are 100% good, if I hadn't seen you around the forums/wiki a bunch, I might have assumed differently, but probably not. You're defending your stance just fine, and in a mature way, so, even if I didn't "know your mannerisms" I don't think it would be overly argumentative.

Mon, 08/04/2014 - 13:55

#13

Bopp

not "the" wiki way

For example, you've decided to use the Hunter's Lodge as the "main" page, but someone else with your exact same stance could have chosen the Armero Alchemy Machine as the main page.

The solution is not to forbid content altogether. When someone else duplicates content unnecessarily, we discuss it (sometimes) and merge them.

There are patterns to follow - 1 tangent or 1000, follow the pattern! This is because choosing which relatable-subject-page to be the "main" page of all tangential (and/or directly related) pages is rather arbitrary and leads to inconsistencies over time.

The solution is not to forbid tangents altogether. When someone adds too many tangents to a page, we discuss them (sometimes) and delete them.

I picture each page like an Atom

Yes, but on Wikipedia there are also "molecule" pages, which cover multi-part topics. There are pages operating at multiple levels of organization. They help us see patterns in knowledge, rather than just viewing isolated facts.

You are presenting your philosophy as "the wiki way". But wikis do not have to work like that. In fact, Wikipedia does not work like that. Wikipedia is written by humans, not by algorithms. It is sometimes messy and inconsistent. But it contains huge amounts of information, from which human readers can learn.

In particular, I should not have to write a "guide" that's five lines long, contains entirely objective information, and is entirely a sub-topic of an article (Hunter's Lodge, Armero Alchemy Machine, or whatever we choose) that already exists.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 00:25

#14

Dracora-Speaking

I feel like a lot of my points were missed (my philosophy is not, in any way, THE wiki way, it's just my way - the "wiki way" is being a user-friendly entity that's closer to a database than a google search...sorry if that wasn't clear...you basically restated what I said in a way that makes it look like I didn't say it/agree with it...which I find...odd...anyway...eh...points have been made so...) This was just one room out of many that went through a "guild hall wiki update" that was sorely needed, it's not really the focus of this thread. I'm not personally okay with a few things but, I'm not everybody. Do whatever you want if you think it is better, just be consistent with things and make it easy for future editors to add to it as it changes. I still think a guide page is the way to go - it would be quite a large guide if it has all the details I'm thinking of, not just a few lines. Especially if the economics change and/or more things are added that require different non-boss farming...blah! I try too hard:

If things change, we change with them...sometimes I try too hard to make things so that editors don't have to adjust/work so much when they do change, even if the likelihood of that thing changing fundamentally is rather slim. Following wiki patterns (well, patterns that I agree with - eventually, all "vendor" sections will be changed to "acquisition" - mwahahaha...another thing I don't like is the blablah- equipped tag that accessory images use. But no users really see that, so I just "deal with it" in my brain cause, well, it works...and re-uploading all those images would be a complete waste of time if it's just for the sake of proper terminology in the filename. Gross. If you're curious... I would use "tooltip" or something similar instead of "equipped" - "equipped" is from the reallyratheroldSK days before we had the mouseover blueprint-body stuff that came with a UI update. but this. does NOT. matter). Anyway! Following wiki patterns is part of this...uh..."way" of mine. It bleeds into everything I do on the wiki. It's partially why I don't touch/contribute data about damage values, I would go absolutely insane with every buff/nerf change. Really every change I do is based on user requests or comments in passing I hear in-game...my "to do" list is still very long and I hope I get it done before Uni starts up again. What brought this thread's project about was a knight named Njthug asking about the Tranquil Snipe Garden's price, and then another editor spawned a page for the Tranquil Snipe Garden, so I was like "yep time to get this rolling so things are consistent." It got bumped up my personal to-do list when someone made the TSG page - all good intent, no format no tags. Fixfixfix. To me, the hunter's lodge is just a room. The trophies it unlocks by providing a special machine to make them are a collection of specific items that have a specific creation method, and to me, that needs a guide page, a huge topic that is its own thing - far more than a room or a machine. I would link to this guide on the room/machine page. I've said this before! No more debating from me. My stance is stated, take it or leave it.

One thing I am adamant about: don't make redirects for entities that are too much of their own thing, like the alchemy machine or armero. Do overlaps as we've discussed. If you have overlapping data that is the same on multiple pages that could easily change as the game updates, (like the "recipes" in the armero machine - I BELIEVE!!! in Shadow Lair trophies one day...one day! *shakes fist at sky*) use the Single Update template that I've linked to above - or create one yourself - to make it easier for editors to update things.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 01:37

#15

Bopp

in the end

In the end, your attempts to make the wiki more standardized and maintainable are great. Writing templates and other meta-content really helps us.

Maybe we still don't understand each other's positions on the "boss trophy guide", but you're right that we should stop beating it to death. I'll make what I consider to be a modest addition, probably to Armero Alchemy Machine, and we'll see whether you can stand it. (If you can't, then what other people are doing on the wiki may drive you nuts.)

For both of us, Hunter's Lodge was just an example, that we were using to illustrate our stances. I'm okay with your stance on redirects and individual entities. It can be taken too far --- for example, does Divine Avenger Recipe need its own page, separate from Divine Avenger? --- but I don't see you taking it too far.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 16:23

#16

Dracora-Speaking

Okay!

Well, I have started to work on a more comprehensive table for the understanding of "getting that level 3 trophy." Or the level 2 trophy, too.

This Thing. Be sure to view the most recent version, otherwise it will look silly. There are a few different examples of tables on there that we can use. Vote on one to be used on the actual page(s).

1) images are hard to update if they're images of text. I mean the image itself, not uploading a new image, haha. The image I uploaded before suffices, but might be confusing for what I call the "lazy user" - someone who might have graduated with a 4.0, sure, but it's 3AM and they're just curious and that picture would not make sense at all. It's also out of date, because it mentions energy usage on elevators.

2) plug 'n chug desired for existing and potentially new items that follow the same pattern. Attempting to code for switches in the table. Will fail miserably and cry.

*Continues to insist on a guide page*

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 16:43

#17

Skepticraven

↓

I think I get the idea of what you're trying to do. I'll try and clean it up in a bit.

Edit:Okay. Just call me if you need me.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 16:19

#18

Bopp

too much detail?

For making Replica Royal Jelly, you need 1,200,000 crowns, 64 Jelly Glues, 25 Primal Ores, and some lesser materials. I'm no expert on prices, but my sense is that boss materials go for about 8,000 each, while Primal Ores go for maybe 2,000 each? So we're talking 512,000 crowns for Jelly Glues and 50,000 crowns for Primal Ores. So, economically speaking, almost all of the cost of the boss trophy is crowns and boss materials.

And many guilds will have the Primal Ores lying around, and will want to earn the Jelly Glues themselves, rather than buying them. So, psychologically speaking, an even larger fraction of the boss trophy cost may seem to be crowns and boss materials.

What I'm getting at is: Showing the detailed recipe for each trophy may not be useful, if all that matters is the crowns and boss materials.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 16:28

#19

Dracora-Speaking

noooo

stay away while I'm editing or I'll get trolled by the wiki-ness D:

@bopp let's cater to all guilds, old and new. Old guilds will care about asking their members do dump their hoard of materials in. Newer guilds will care about just buying them from the AH if they're rushing, or maybe not if a new guild is formed from older players. Highly variable. Best to have a raw cost standard.

Since market data constantly changes, I really don't think it's prudent to have crown-market data in the table. have it outside this table, nearby, perhaps in its own table.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 19:12

#20

Dracora-Speaking

OKAY

So, I completed what I think as both an editor and a user would be most useful to both old and new guilds. See the "history" of the page and compare revisions to see the various tables I came up with. This could certainly use more opinions.

Have fun, that's all for tonight. If people like the table set (basic recipe, totals, and farming), fill in the data for the other three trophy lines (or make nifty coding shortcuts, cause my process is very meticulous, cause I don't know enough about coding - I would try to use a bunch of specific recipe templates but eh, there has to be a better way) - content for those is currently "BLAHBLAH." Also please check my math. And be careful filling in, that stuff is rather important for planning ahead - we don't want to accidentally tell people they need 400 of something they only need 100 and so on.

Thoughts:

could easily add a "notes" section for economic planning in close vicinity to the template, example:

These tables only factor in raw crafting costs. If your guild wishes to buy materials from other players or the Auction House, then the ACTUAL "total" crown cost will be different (but always greater than or equal to the one listed) for your guild.

And finally, I've edited the "Hunter's Lodge" page and the "Armero Alchemy Machine" page to look like what I think they should look like. Just my opinion - obviously, this template would go on a guide page in my view. And obviously, the guide page would need a proper title, don't just make one going through that red link.

Remember, nothing is set in stone, this is just what I've done for today. Tomorrow (or even the next minute!) could be very different.

Don't rush implementing. Make super duper sure you're seeing the version of the page that you're wanting to see, otherwise feedback will be confusing.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 03:28

#21

Bopp

the table in post #16

The table in post #16 looks really good --- not what I would have done, but it's way too good to complain about. Where will it be placed in public view?

I still disagree with your fundamental philosophy in post #19. When communicating with humans, one should emphasize what is important and deemphasize what is not important.

Edit: Upon re-reading your post, you were simply saying that we should ignore the "psychological" effect, and focus on the "rational" effect. So how do you feel about the idea of emphasizing crowns and boss token costs, and de-emphasizing all other costs? Maybe this question is obsolete, now that I've already accepted your big table.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 05:02

#22

Skepticraven

↓

The only thing that seems off to me is...

In the totals, both the ingredients for all the statues as well as the statues are included for the 2nd and 3rd size statues. I feel as though the lower tier statues should not be mentioned in the level 2 and level 3 totals.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 07:07

#23

Dracora-Speaking

table format

maybe have it in parenthesis?
("like, btw, the actual trophy poofs - Like when you make a nightblade, the brandish is turned into the nightblade. Trophies just take 4 in their somewhat cannibalistic means of existing") That was hard to make people understand. Why do the 4 statues poof?!?!?! IDK! they just do!

As long as it's very, very clear that yeah, the prerequisite statues poof away into the bigger one.

EDIT: tried something. See "feedback adjustment" version.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 07:09

#24

Skepticraven

↓

Well its an ingredient in the basic recipes, which makes sense.
But it is also an "ingredient" with all the ingredients in the totals as well - almost seems as it is saying you need to double-pay the materials.
I'm somewhat assuming that the "total" means "total base cost if we convert the smaller statues into their components, then add them up" - thus removing the need for the smaller statues to be listed there again. They fully belong in the base recipe.

Also, I just noticed this as well - why have the smaller statues outside the recipe template? The current page has it in the template.

Edit: Sniped! That works well enough for me.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 07:28

#25

Dracora-Speaking

argh

sorry if you were editing...that's always startling for me. I constantly copy/paste with notepad because of this.

Regarding "why have it outside" - haha. With my browser, if all the tables are expanded, the name+icon got squished into a really fat row and that was driving me nuts - most people won't notice that me putting them outside the table is actually breaking a "recipe table pattern" since it's still in-line vertically. I took them out of the table and put them below it with the "deviation from typical recipe table pattern" edit, I think.

Anyway, added in some "notes" to go with the previous feedback edit.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 17:12

#26

Dracora-Speaking

WELL THEN

I accidentally ate some gluten two days ago and have just been...bleh...so bleh...wooooof. Think I'm back for a bit now.

I'm going to bite the bullet here and make a furniture "guide page" (actually, I plan on putting this guide at the bottom of the Main Furniture page) within the next day or so. It's really just going to be a very obese notes section, with better ToC stuff of course. There's already some scraps of information there, from when I put it on hold for other things.

It will be an all-encompassing guide, not just for boss trophies - explaining how some things show up in certain places (the supply depot, but so far never the featured auction house as far as I know, and so on) - giving economic advice, advising patience...emphasizing looking at individual group pages for more details on acquisition data and so on. Talking about dimensional space, where things can be placed in a guild hall (lots of screenshots) - how things might look different with environments/themes and so on. It should be a decent size by the time I'm done. Y'all know how I can ramble on, so it might actually need trimming. Certainly, Boss Trophies will take up a huge % of this guide.

This would not eliminate the possibility of overlapping information on pages (and other discussed formats) talked about in this thread. I've wanted to make a furniture guide for a while now anyway. So, edit away if you feel it can be better!

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 08:51

#27

Dracora-Speaking

Annnnd "done"

I've fleshed out a large batch of information on the furniture page - this is similar to the information found on the main accessory page as well as other pages, just "how to breathe" basics for completely new/returning players, as well as history and finer details for older users. Linked to the relevant section on the Hunter's Lodge and Armero Alchemy Machine pages.

I've filled in the rest of the Economics of Boss Trophies template (EconomicsTrophiesBoss) - I probably made mistakes. There's a lot of super fine linking, resource, and math data - I'd love for someone to look it over and clean up any mistakes.

As always, edit to make it better!

I should have named this thread "Wiki: Guild Hall Efforts" instead.

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