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Defence sheet for D25 a.k.a. the Lockdown depth

19 replies [Last post]
Sun, 08/03/2014 - 16:19
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Link to the sheet

Pretty self-explanatory. This sheet holds defence values for every 5* item that provides defence in the game, excluding Sprites because they're not relevant to LD and their values are equal to UVs anyway. The majority of these values are derived by comparing defence bars to see which values are shared between items. I thought it was kind of annoying to have to compare stuff every time I wanted to do maths on defence so here it is. I'd have posted in Wiki Editors but then again no one reads that section.

I suggest using the simplified sheet due to better organisation. The helmet and armour sheets are sorted alphabetically rather than logically. The exception is BKC, which is listed underneath the other Kat Cowls because that's how the wiki did it and I just copied the lists of helmets and armours from the wiki.

Have fun!

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 12:13
#1
Lady-Of-War's picture
Lady-Of-War
Wait a second.

Lockdown uses depths from the Clockworks?

This makes no sense.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 12:49
#2
Glittertind

Thank you, Krakob.

Tue, 08/05/2014 - 14:38
#3
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

How is this thread different from this?

I see no refining of almost year-old numbers just in a new chart for players to see.
Since that other thread's original appearance - I've set up a method for adding precision to both the raw damage numbers as well as the armor reduction values. I was slightly disappointed to see no progress on this.

Also - If LD is D25, does that mean the guardian shield has 775 hp?

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 00:41
#4
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I'm very certain I made an attempt at measuring the guardian shield's defences and hit points at some point, but I can't remember where I wrote the result down.

The method itself involved hitting the shield with something that did X amounts of damage, and then something that did Y amounts of damage, then observing the ratios of of the length of shield bar that got reduced, comparing that to ratios the damage values would have if they were undefended, and kinda of zequaling it from there.

I seem to recall the health amount being more than a knight without trinkets but much less than a knight with trinkets, so 775 doesn't sound wrong.

Edit: It was right here! The number I arrived to was 575.

@Lady-of-War:
You know how your weapons do different amounts of damage depending on depth? Weapons do the damage they would do in Depth 25 for T3 Lockdown. I think T2 is depth 15.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 09:21
#5
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Skepticraven

Indelad, this thread shows no progress. My only intentions were to make a sheet for us all that's easy to use when you need to do calculations on this stuff. It's something I often find myself in need of when I'm trying to help friends and guildmates but since Zeddy and I had only tested some items, comparing defence bars became annoying after a while.

These values are derived from our tests and have a precision of 0.5. After looking at your thread, I haven't seen any defence measurement method. I'll admit, I skimmed some parts. Could you link me to the specific post in question?

Either way, I wonder why you feel disappointed in this. I never claimed to have made any progress on anything, I just made an sheet to be used for my own convenience, and shared it here because others may find it useful.

@Glittertind
No problem, glad you appreciate it!

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 14:50
#6
Lady-Of-War's picture
Lady-Of-War
@Zeddy

I think I get it now. So, would that make T1 be set at Depth 5?

After all:
T2 = D15
T3 = D25

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 17:14
#7
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle

so i'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong or not, but i click the link in the OP and it just takes me to this

now it's entirely possible i don't know how to internet but yeah the data just doesn't show up for me

but considering i was going to come in here and post about how numbers don't mean much if you just hit things until they don't move anymore, it's probably for the best so instead

i'll leave behind a knock knock joke

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 02:25
#8
Glittertind

Retequizzle.

I know the buttons can be a bit elusive.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 00:45
#9
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

@Lady-Of-War
Possibly, but then again the Guild Training Hall depths are 1, 13 and 23 so who knows.

@Krakob
You might want to consider making the link in the OP link directly to the final sheet with all the defences on one page.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 04:02
#10
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Yeah, sorry about that, Rete. Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows how to use Google spreadsheets.

Zeddy, I guess so. Editing is a bit of a pain on an iPad so I'll fix it when I get home.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 19:17
#11
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
@Zeddy

With my math on your numbers, the lowest variance exists for those numbers at a shield defense value of 125.8 giving the HP of 450 [1.25 damage per pixel].

Also, with 150 def, the shield HP would lead to 400 hp [1.11 damage per pixel].

[Variance at 125.8 def is 57.3 hp, while Variance at 150 def is 430 hp]

The odd part is that 400 nor 450 show up on standard shield HP by depth.
I'm also rather confused as to where you got 575.

@Krakob
Short story:
1. The precision is not 0.5.
2. Method for further minimizing armor:

  • Forgot to link this thread. [Why did I make those two separate threads?]
  • Deathmark to find raw damage with varying damage bonuses to minimize error.
  • Record damage with armor.
  • Test multiple cases to find either a range of about 1 where the resulting damage doesnt change OR a tiny (~0.1) range where the resulting damage does change.
  • 3. I'm eager to see other people working on the same problems I am, only to hope we both come up independently with the same results. I was kinda hoping I wasn't the only one actively working on this.

    Long story for people interested:
    1 My apologies - I often forget that I for some reason made 2 threads on my research. This one works with the minimization of pure weapon damage using multiple boost values. If one value is used for the estimating damage, it can be off by as much as 1.239 damage [0.999 multiplied by the armor boost] in either direction.

    The only armor that I have concluded is normal defense on D1 being exactly 10. (Easily can do more now if I look for specific anamolies such as below). It is easiest to see how I came to the conclusion using the hatchet lvl 1 values, where the minimized raw damage is 22.989-23. The armor+1 and armor+4+20%pickup yield a "subtracted only" armor value ranging from 9.909-10.016. Other weapons/heat levels further refined this value.

    I don't like errors. The excessive rounding irks me. I've been hoping to see more progress made on the LD front as I've been working in the arcade.

    Thu, 08/07/2014 - 23:06
    #12
    Sir-Pandabear's picture
    Sir-Pandabear

    Let me do that maths again I guess.

    My post doesn't state this, and this is obviously kinda critical to the end-result, but tests I performed would almost certainly have been with max damage bonus. I must have went with as large damage numbers as I could to avoid treshold shenanigans. To be clear on this, it was long ago and I don't actually remember. Should probably perform new tests altogether.

    Let's bring up the old chart of Lockdown sword damage.

    Flourish: 412 (swipe) and 618 (charge).
    Hammer: 477 (swipe), 358 (dash) and 715 (charge).

    Let's go with just the highest and the lowest number for now. The ratio in question i 715/358 ~= 199.72%

    The damage in pixels for those attacks were 352 and 133. This ratio is 352/133 ~= 264.66%

    To find our defence, we're looking for a number where (715 - x) / (358 - x) ~= 2.6466165413533833

    I'm lazy so I just throw that into wolphram alpha and get a number around 141. Okay then.

    This puts the damage for the hammer charge at 715 -141 = 574.

    574 * 360 / 354 = 583.

    I probably chose some other attacks to go off of, but you can see how I ended in the neighbourhood of 575, certainly.

    Fri, 08/08/2014 - 16:07
    #13
    Fangel's picture
    Fangel
    Oh.

    Well TIL that I usually pretty much use the weakest 5* PvP armor possible that has no benefit to myself.

    But that curse resistance is too delicious to give up, especially when I use recon and have a CTR max gran faust.

    Fri, 08/08/2014 - 18:00
    #14
    Skepticraven's picture
    Skepticraven
    ↓

    My post doesn't state this, and this is obviously kinda critical to the end-result, but tests I performed would almost certainly have been with max damage bonus.

    That would make a world of a difference. The part that confused me though was the 123.5% which appeared during my +0 damage bonus. When I find time again, I'll take another look with the max damage numbers.

    Fri, 08/08/2014 - 18:11
    #15
    Krakob's picture
    Krakob
    @Skepticraven

    I'm not sure how it's not precise to 0.5. These values were found by death marking, find out the pure damage, and then comparing to the defence of a full set. Divide the defence of the set by two and you get the defence of one piece, where results may be multiples of 0.5. I don't see why any of the values would be more than 0.25 off at most.

    Fri, 08/08/2014 - 18:43
    #16
    Skepticraven's picture
    Skepticraven
    ↓

    @Krakob

    The range of deathmarked (armorless) damage is after rounding (where damage is rounded up, even 19.000001 would result in 20 damage).
    If the only damage value recorded (more often than not comparing green/black in the data) is only the +6, you add an additional 4% per boost.

    The same thing applies when comparing damage against armor.

    An example using my proto sword D2 numbers in an attempt to predict the neutral armor... [for simplicity, lets assume my 24.167 raw damage estimate is 100% accurate].
    If I only took one unarmored damage value... lets say +4 (the 29 recorded, which is actually about 0.999 off from the actual value). This brings the raw damage estimate to be exactly 25 (off by 0.833).
    Now lets get to armor. The theoretical armor is pretty close to 13 (between 13.00 due to +0 20% pickup and 13.03 due to +4 armor). However, if I were to again take the reduced damage value at +4, the very limited data would suggest 14 points of damage reduction.

    This is the most extreme simple example I can find, which results in an error of 1 during the armor estimation. Hypothetically, the error may be as high as 2 in a worst case scenario. Extremely unlikely, but possible.

    Sun, 08/10/2014 - 05:40
    #17
    Riftlocker's picture
    Riftlocker
    <--- Skepticraven

    @Zeddy
    New Numbers.

    I'm getting 560 hp with the minimization of error using the +6 values (armor of 153.5). The datapoint that seems to disagree the most is hammer's first strike.

    Sun, 08/10/2014 - 22:22
    #18
    Theirillusion's picture
    Theirillusion

    Did I miss the Vitasuit Deluxe?

    Mon, 08/11/2014 - 04:54
    #19
    Krakob's picture
    Krakob

    I don't have any data on Vitasuit Deluxe. If you could figure it out, that'd be great. Sadly, we'll lack some precision since we can't use a full set.

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