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about defense

14 replies [Last post]
Wed, 10/29/2014 - 10:47
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

Defense is highly neglected yadayadayada. You know the drill. How about some ideas.

Make defense cut a percentage of the damage, not a set amount. That way tanking would really be a viable strategy, with ironmight tanking 70-80% of the damage while chaos only 40%. It would also give some variety to armors, since they would have actual differences in defense, not just 30-50 points. Obviously armors absorb only the damage type they defend from. It would take quite a bit to balance this out, but it would be very effective.

Another solution would be lowering the attack of all monsters and the health of all knights. That way 30-50 points could actually make a difference. Maybe even rebalance status buffs and debuffs so they are more efficient with someone with no status resistance or with status weakness. Looking at you chaos. We all are.

With these changes, defense Uvs need rebalance too. Increase a percentage of the percentage (and not the percentage itself) in the first case, and in the second case, I don’t actually know, they might balance themselves out in the end.

On top of all this, could we please have a health trinket rebalance? Defense seriously needs it. Think about it: ironmight + 60 pips of health possibly equals immortality with these rebalances. I suggest cutting the line to 3* and give 1-2-3 health pips per pendant. Also a giveaway like the old shard bombs giveaway. Take out the alchemy lines first though, nobody likes rigged giveaways but the ones who actually rig them.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 11:30
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

This is a change that could be nice. I haven't seen a percentage system suggested before but it might be good.
However, UVs should not be a percentage increase. That would make a shadow UV on a magic hood useless. UVs can be static.

Under your suggestion it makes glass cannons more glass with the same amount of cannon, which is honestly what needs to be done. Honestly health boosts might be another way to modify these sets. Perhaps these sets could give you -1 of the usual star level (chaos gives +3, and +4 at level 5) in terms of health, and give defensive armors +1 of their current health(Grey Owlite gives +5 at level 1, +6 at level 5), and plate armors give +2 of their usual amount. We can add +1 to ancient plate as it is because it's ancient plate. Class armors and specialist gear are unaffected. We can make heart pendants work in a percent system that scales with tiers and strata, like our weapons do. In stratum 1 you get +1 health, and in stratum 6 you get +6 health. But if you are wearing glass cannon gear, you get a maximum of +5 health per penta, or +8 for platemail.

Basically, by making defense worth something AND changing up health values, you're making defensive gears worthwhile. Ancient plate becomes super tanky, like it should, while chaos gets a bit of a nerf to its longevity.

This would also directly affect PvP choices I would think. Players will mix and match offensive with defensive, as their offensive gear is less of a tank, and when matched against a real tank, good luck. Ancient plate guardians can get up to 50 pips with this system (5 base + 18 armor + 18 trinkets, + 9 from guardian shield) while maintaining massive normal defense.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 12:45
#2
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

taking percentages into health trinkets,now that's a good idea. increase health by 20-25-30% of the armor you are wearing would be great.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 13:10
#3
Dahall's picture
Dahall

Spiral knights + Dark souls = Apex of awesomeness.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 13:19
#4
Dahall's picture
Dahall

*You hear the echoes of a fool who double posted*

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 13:33
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
With percentages we should work out the odds

Honestly if heart trinkets are a percentage thing, that would make them scale appropriately to each tier. That might be better than trying to manually change their value.
The only issue I see is mix and matching gear here. Would health trinkets be under an equation such as ((helmet health + armor health)/2)*heart pendant value? If so, would we round up or down if we have odd values? I'm leaning towards rounding up as to make proto armor still get a health boost of +1 per pendant. Also, as I said before, reducing the armor health values could actually make pentas more interesting. A penta heart pendant could have a 100% boost, as right now that is exactly what they do. Under what is proposed this makes glass cannons not get as much as a bonus, and tanks get even tankier (before they would only get +6, now they can get +7 from these trinkets). Hence, makes defense a fun thing to have, because not only are you blocking more damage, but you can take more hits.

This also could add or subtract value away from other pendants health adjustments. Say that true love lockets stay with +6 health always, and that the grand solstice and gift of autumn remain the way they are. That would make a market for some strikers for wanting true love lockets, and drive their price waaay up.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 14:00
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
"Say that true love lockets

"Say that true love lockets stay with +6 health always, and that the grand solstice and gift of autumn remain the way they are. That would make a market for some strikers for wanting true love lockets, and drive their price waaay up."

And making this game even more P2W

Rather just make the scaling affect all HP changing trinkets in such a way that a defensive boosting trinket (on the right armor against the right weapon) actually protects you more than raw HP.

Example:

A WMRH would deal less damage (percent wise) to a player wearing Grey Owlite that has 2 Radiant crystal pins than someone in the same armor wearing 2 Pentas.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 15:41
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Except these items are not paid.

Rare items, such as true love lockets and gifts of autumn are not pay to win, rather extremely rare. Besides, a lockdown striker with two extra pips isn't going to be too big of a change, and if they change even one of their armor pieces to something different a true love locket is going to have the same if not worse stats than a penta heart pendant. Also, this means a gift of autumn would be a good alternative, as it only reduces 1 pip for strikers. This also means that true love lockets will be more helpful in earlier tiers where their health boost will not be scaled down.

And it is way harder to farm for love puppies that drop a true love locket than it is to roll UVs or unlock slots.

The health change would hopefully be alongside the defense change. In that change we would see defense trinkets become more useful, or so I would hope.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 05:03
#8
Keepscaite's picture
Keepscaite
+1

Total support of this. This makes a defensive set actually viable.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 12:44
#9
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
I agree

I agree to changing the health upgrades from health trinkets to a percentage then to actual value base on the armor the player is wearing. i was thinking, isn't there a shield that give health benefits too like the scarlet shield: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Scarlet_Shield

does that come into the calculation?

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 12:52
#10
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Blandaxt

I believe this thread is geared more towards LD and not PVE.

I would hope that those who spend torturous hours being hunted in LD would be rewarded in PVE for their efforts to create HP trinkets that would give straight numbers.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 13:21
#11
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

oh holy, you obviously don't know me. I didn't think about LD, not even a second.

scarlet shield is only +2 pips, it's 3* and it doesn't affect much the overall health, so I'd keep it there.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 14:07
#12
Fangel's picture
Fangel
True.

I was thinking PvP for some of the things, but at the same time I see them directly benefiting PvE play too. Seriously, if you're wearing 5* gear in tier 1, you're not going to need an extra 12 pips of health. Also, sprite perks would remain where they are.

And remember true love lockets? Those aren't changed. Still +6 anywhere.

The layout goes as follows: More defense = good everywhere. Adjusting health values makes glass cannons more glass in the clockworks as well. You shouldn't be wearing chaos everywhere without some sort of penalty, especially when the penalty seems to just be "don't get hit", which players can do rather easily with CTR: VH, or even maximum with level 10 weapons.

It should be more or less known that when it comes to defense, you actually need to get hit to take a benefit from it. Adding more health to defensive sets allows players to take even more benefit from their defense. Slammed by vanaduke's mace? Were you in full volcanic plate set? Great, not only do you not take much from the status, but you tank the hit SO much better than a chaos user.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 16:26
#13
Supnaplamqw's picture
Supnaplamqw
I have a personal duty to support this

+1

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 22:45
#14
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Love it!

I love how you put it all together Fangel, I really hope this change can be implemented in sk to show the armor values aren't just for show. The letdown in heavy armors such as slow movement speed and slow attacking speed will finally not be an unnecessary burden sense the armors themselves give high defensive values.

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