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Gameplay Redux - A new concept for how the game is played

29 replies [Last post]
Sat, 11/08/2014 - 19:08
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This is a change that would elevate the game. It is the sort of thing that would make people talk about Spiral Knights whenever they mentioned their favorite game of all time, not just the 20 people posting here, but the thousands of people that could like the game and do not. It would not be an easy change to make, but rather, a necessary one. I say that because right now, Spiral Knights just isn't up there and will very likely never be up there as a "great" game for the bulk of its players.

The Concept

When you go down into the clockworks, the best way to play is to process levels like a machine would. You iterate through all of the paths to get all of the ends which contain loot, and every run feels about the same with relatively repeatable results. This holds the game back by negating those random elements that it relies so heavily on for replay value- every clockwork tunnels feels the same and is basically the exact same level regardless of which parts it uses, especially whenever you bring the same items every time.

So I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think that the cause of this redundancy is that complete lack of real puzzle elements and relatively underwhelming nature of consumables and other temporary drops. Lets take for example the puzzle elements that occur during the Apocrean event- you find a key, you put it in a lock. You get an item that is... a material, most of the time. This isn't a real puzzle. Anyone can see that the key belongs in the lock, and it adds nothing to the game when that trigger is changed to a statue, a button, a spinning switch.......

These elements are fine, but they're rarely used in any interesting way and never used in a meaningful way. The puzzles in Spiral Knights are basically one of these, when a much better solution would be a puzzle like one of these, something tangible for you to work with that offers multiple solutions and multiple rewards.

This is where consumables come in. If we needed non-health related items for success and if they helped us out in actually interesting ways, there would be a much bigger drive to attain them and they would actually make the game interesting- however, since they wouldn't change the payout of levels they would offer mostly optional benefits that would really ramp up when the player has more gear options. If I find sword damage up as my setup, I might want to swap and use swords when I would usually not. In essence, consumables should define our runs as much as anything else would.

Proposed Changes to Consumables

The notion of what a vitapod should be extended to include a good many more effects than just buffing your HP. Because of this health in general would be made less of a requirement from vitapods by way of letting armor grant you more health per piece based on how defensive those pieces of armor are, and vitapods would be made to give less health in general. An additional pod slot would be added on to allow for multiple pod type pickups to be held at one point, and the ability to drop vitapods would be re-added to allow for players to swap out their boosts.

The new "vitapods" would be modules that allowed the knight to augment all aspects of their play- all existing buffs, and as many effects as possible would be added to these pods. Sword speed med, movement speed increased... these could be randomly generated for best effect, with balance built in using formulas. Some of them would contain tradeoffs- movement speed: max for negative damage very high? These kinds of things would make building your character actually interesting. Picking up a vitapod that does the same thing every time just doesn't benefit the game's design like it should. Of course, these wouldn't just drop all over the place any more, and would be spawned at a more constant rate, depending on the amount of effort put in to get them.

The idea of consumables like pills could also use improvement. The game focuses entirely on pills and health caps, with few exceptions. I wouldn't frown on this fact entirely however- why not add new health items and capitalize on it? Imagine a temporary health boost that filled your entire health bar with health pips that would disapear after a minute. Other options would be pills that gave you less health back, but healed your entire party, revival pills (revive one team mate for half health, anyone?), status immunity pills (only work prior to the status being applied) and temporary health regeneration pills (use and your health bar heals slowly over the course of a few minutes). These kinds of pill drops would all function like our current consumables, and would be found from monster drops like they currently are.

The other side to this would be the various vials and barriers that one can find. I would like to suggest turning these into active effects like sprite skills. Vials would regenerate over time, and would receive a small buff in their area of effect. Because of this recharge feature, they would become rarer to find, interchangeable with the vitapods mentioned above.

Proposed Changes to Levels (and Enemies)

The only necessary change would be a means of accommodating meaningful puzzle elements into the game. Most of the game would stay the same, but would need a bit of reformatting, and new sections would be added on as needed.

  • New formatting for level sequences
  • Every run should start with several development levels, should progress into several loot levels, and should end with a climax level. In other words, the first few levels would be aimed at building up your consumables and passive benefits, making you harder, better, faster and stronger, Daft Punk style. These levels would have average to mediocre loot. The second set of levels would appear more often the deeper you went. These would be more oriented around permanent loot, like rarities, materials, crowns.. they would be the meat of the run. At the end of the run, you would fight a boss, miniboss, arena, something big, and then you would be rewarded big with a level like the treasure vault or otherwise.

    This general formula aims to find places for all of the odds and ends that have arisen in the game.

  • Separate permanent treasure and consumables
  • There is a huge difference between a pill and 3 fire crystals. Putting these things together forces players get both at once, and provides for the very shallow gameplay that I mentioned above. To control the buffs that consumables would provide, rooms containing a single one of these would be added. These rooms would require some sort of resource found on the level to access. Treasure boxes would never contain pills, consumables or vitapods.

    This change would allow for a carefully planned balance of consumables and actual loot drops.

  • Individual levels should be formatted to work with creative uses of consumables and items
  • Shooting through walls should not be a bad thing any longer. This is big and this is hard, because it entails making levels and level sections safer by forcing the triggers to all work out... why bother? Because it allows for more interesting game play, it lets you produce items that open up new areas, that let you find secrets better. With things like this, even the player ghosting through the stage would be alright.

    The first thing required would be a path to the exit. When you have that, a lot more is fair game. A new area is found? Imagine that you could perhaps fail the puzzle required to get through it. You find a set of 5 statue plates and 3 statues that slowly crumble. Can you find the pattern of plates that will let you access the loot? On the other side is a button that when pressed opens all of the gates permanently, so that your party cannot play tricks on you.

    Similarly, puzzles could rely on your buffs that you have at the moment. Have one player kill 20 enemies in 5 seconds? Do you have bombs? Each party member gets one shot, and all are rewarded with loot or consumables, depending on how deep in you are. What about hitting a target in the distance? Got a range upgrade? Can you break this enormous mineral to pieces quickly enough? What about kill all of the grass? Maybe you could go back and get that consumable that gave your bombs massive range for less damage.

    The classic branches with loot and fighting would stay as well, but these sorts of branching rooms are what puzzles should be like in general.

  • Stronger enemies
  • Enemies, and groups of enemies, should be given alternate abilities sometimes as well. This buff would make the game more challenging to compensate for the fact that your average knight is now arguably much stronger.

    These enemies would become more prevalent the later in your run you went, and by the end you would be fighting significantly harder monsters. You would require these buffs to succeed.

    Proposed Changes to Gameplay Mechanics Regarding the Level

    All of the current gear would be able to stay roughly the same. However, more level altering weapons would be very appealing to use to the point that they might deserve their own mention. What if the knight could spawn puzzle elements like ghost blocks? Spawn a trail of concrete slabs, and then a ghost block, to access certain areas? This would disrupt the flow of the game, but if levels were made to accommodate it, it would play out AMAZINGLY well. What if the knight could light lamps on fire with combuster? Freeze water with glacius? Push blocks around with neutral damage weapons?

    And finally, the big kicker- what if it made a difference? If I brought voltedge to shock the pillar with over combuster's fire, I could access a separate set of consumables that were typically stored by voltedge? For instance, an vitapod type item that adds shock damage to fire damage could be accessed only if someone had access to both. With enough of these, a strategic approach to gear layouts would be necessary.

    Sat, 11/08/2014 - 20:23
    #1
    Keepscaite's picture
    Keepscaite
    +1

    I like it. Especially that last bit. This would finally give people to diversify their weps and equips from the usual Vog Cub + Acheron + Blitz sets. And it will also make the Clockworks feel more rewarding as opposed to simply mission grinding.

    The one thing I am against is allowing shooting through walls. Not only will the safeguards make certain levels needlessly complicated, it also tips the favor too far into the players who own the Mixmaster. It'd be better if the Mixmaster was as regularly as obtainable as any other weapon, but even then I'd still be against wall piercing bullets.

    Sat, 11/08/2014 - 20:29
    #2
    Supnaplamqw's picture
    Supnaplamqw
    +100000000000000000000000000000000000

    BTW, Could there be levels which have multiple paths?
    If so,how much paths would the average level have?
    Would there be levels specifically design for a plethora of puzzles, far more than the average amount?

    Sat, 11/08/2014 - 21:47
    #3
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    Levels would branch about as much as they currently do, so around once or twice, occasionally three times. On average, one puzzle per level. Maybe two less complicated ones.

    As for the mixmaster being some kind of one of a kind weapon, it wouldn't be. In fact, I doubt it would even get anything special for puzzles aside from using its arced shot for something, which alchemers could also do. Shooting through walls would be much better reserved for newer more pure utility weapons designed around it.

    Sun, 11/09/2014 - 05:55
    #4
    Keepscaite's picture
    Keepscaite
    @Fehzor

    [Levels would branch about as much as they currently do, so around once or twice, occasionally three times. On average, one puzzle per level. Maybe two less complicated ones.]

    Why not make it so that the puzzles split in different end points. Each puzzle would take the players to a different elevator, which will then progress to different areas. Maybe add a signpost before the branch, to show where the elevator at the end would lead. This way, players won't have to wait 10 minutes in front of the elevator, waiting for it to change.

    [As for the mixmaster being some kind of one of a kind weapon, it wouldn't be. In fact, I doubt it would even get anything special for puzzles aside from using its arced shot for something, which alchemers could also do. Shooting through walls would be much better reserved for newer more pure utility weapons designed around it.]

    That's good. How about a gun that shoots a slow travelling orb that goes through targets and doesn't trigger them, but only dpes scratch damage. This would make it great at puzzle stages, but horrible at Arena stages XD.

    Sun, 11/09/2014 - 06:17
    #5
    Whyna's picture
    Whyna
    +1

    I like the ideas but you cannot just kill 20 enemies in 5 seconds. That's crazy

    Sun, 11/09/2014 - 10:21
    #6
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    @Keepscaite

    Honestly, I think that it would be best if the developers either embraced the waiting and changing and let players choose branching paths, or didn't let them wait at all. With this, you wouldn't have to wait as much anyway, because you'd constantly be getting "better" levels and you'd always end with a really nice level.

    @Whyna

    Bombers do it all the time on compounds and during the royal jelly fight.

    Sun, 11/09/2014 - 10:55
    #7
    Trats-Romra's picture
    Trats-Romra

    It's a great idea. +1. It is very "spiral knights". I mean, it remember me of my first moments on SK. The monsters, attacks, explosions and fast movement on the trailer. The Vanaduke. And the promise of exploration, adventure and challenge that you feel when you begin to play it.

    Is it to arcade and missions?

    It could make missions more interesting. The game on your own, actually.

    Sun, 11/09/2014 - 12:52
    #8
    Abelisk's picture
    Abelisk
    +1

    Wow, good suggestions this week! Thank you Fehzor for crafting this fantastic suggestion. This is what Nick looked for, but never knew how to attain it. This suggestion wins the Nobel Puzzle Prize of the year, no doubt. I see how well this can fit. I'm not so much into consumables and perhaps there can be more fun additives added onto obtaining consumables and what they could do (imagine a consumable that can have a random bomb in it when used... Depending on the tier, the strength of the consumable is impacted. ) But, wow, you really got into the good stuff when you said "Every run should start with several development levels, should progress into several loot levels, and should end with a climax level. In other words, the first few levels would be aimed at building up your consumables and passive benefits, making you harder, better, faster and stronger, Daft Punk style. These levels would have average to mediocre loot. The second set of levels would appear more often the deeper you went. These would be more oriented around permanent loot, like rarities, materials, crowns.. they would be the meat of the run. At the end of the run, you would fight a boss, miniboss, arena, something big, and then you would be rewarded big with a level like the treasure vault or otherwise." That bit sounds very rewarding and true to SK's intention. Also, I agree where you say SK needs puzzles that are complex and interesting. That is really needed... the puzzles we have right now are certainly matching games.

    Mon, 11/10/2014 - 07:59
    #9
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    Lol, thanks for the "+1"s guys, as if this is some sort of democracy and I explained why it shouldn't be at some point- lets say that every citizen on earth has a vote for whether the Doritos corporation should hand out free potato chips once a month on Friday, or send the monetary equivolant to people that dislike potato chips. Would this bill get passed? Probably. Should this bill get passed? Probably not, seeing as to that it is entirely unfair and even potentially crippling to the Doritos corporation.

    I mean I'm still glad for everyone's support, even if this probably doesn't begin to have a chance of making it into the game- it would be immensely time consuming to code, even if it could be one of the best moves that SEGA could make. Is it THE best move? Probably not, given that releasing the level editor and providing players with a means of using it would be a much simpler and better move than reformatting everything to work better. Would this be a good decison, true to the original intentions of the developers? I'd say so.

    Mon, 11/10/2014 - 20:28
    #10
    Trats-Romra's picture
    Trats-Romra
    The +1s

    The +1s or -1s is more about supporting or not a idea than voting it. It's just more 1 supporter, on case of +1, or hater, on case of -1.

    Mon, 11/10/2014 - 22:42
    #11
    Keepscaite's picture
    Keepscaite
    You

    Oh good ol' Fehzor. Always so cynical and pessimist. Your constant sour atittude tickle at my protective instincts. You make me one to hold you close to my chest, stroke your head and say "ssh, it's all gonna be okay".

    Thu, 11/13/2014 - 15:24
    #12
    Fe-Tarkus

    I think it'd be better if the space for holding boostpods and consumables were to be shared. It becomes more of a tactical choice to hold a bunch of different boostpods or to have consumables. Also, less cluttering problems with adding another slot on the screen.

    I feel like the rechargeable vials/barriers is too OP for all players to have(if it is how I think it'd be implemented), but the most important reason to not do this, is that they're going to be too rare since there are 10 vials/barriers(the player is unlikely to get the ones that he/she wants). It'd be better to delegate this ability to an armor set with increasingly higher recharge rate as upgraded.

    Thu, 11/13/2014 - 16:12
    #13
    Fangel's picture
    Fangel
    Hmm.

    Interesting and game changing. Definitely no way to implement all this into the game without some major redesigns and a lot of complaining from the community while this update is being worked on. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.

    Making consumables more relevant is a good idea, but in doing so we need to make sure consumables are relevant. Let us drop consumables and vitapods as we please, but make it clientsided as our loot is. Perhaps have the items hold up to 3 charges and have the last charge be able to recharge itself over time? Like, 3 minutes/level end? And then we collect some sort of universal "charge" item that adds additional charges to all the consumables we have?

    An example of what I'm saying is if I have a pill consumable, remedy capsule consumable, and a poison and shock vial. Let's say I have 3 pills, 2 remedy capsules, and 1 of each vial. If I use a remedy capsule then pick up a recharge item, I'll be back up to 2 remedy capsules but also have 2 of each vial now, but my health pills stay at 3.
    These items might only drop from green boxes whereas the actual item itself (pill, capsules, vials...) is much more rare, dropped by monster classes, or behind puzzles... Although the recharge items need to be 4 times rarer than current consumables. Also, with all the proposed new items, we could have a pill recharger, vial recharger, and barrier recharger as separate things.

    Progressional levels are already sort of in effect with strata, but they didn't take the best approach there. Second/even strata is always better, whether or not you went through the previous one. Would this progression work similar as in per tier, or would it act differently? Also, would this make missions take place in the "loot" area at certain depths, or still in the original "build" range? I'd like to think it's based on floor completion, especially with instanced loot, but that might be difficult to do, but that would encourage sticking around for an entire run rather than just joining people at an arena depth because "it has the best loot".

    I do like the idea of multiplayer-cooperative puzzles. I'm always up for those. If we could have puzzles randomized like clockwork things that would be great. Perhaps it's a puzzle with a more powerful energy gate so if you just want the loot players with energy can spend 10 energy or so to get into the same area. Call that "pay to win" if you want, but you just have to solve the puzzle to get the same loot. Bring a varied loadout!

    In the same area, I've never thought of solo challenge rooms. Those would be great! You send in your best player to beat the challenge, and maybe other players in the party act as aid? Such as, they have a few vials they can throw onto the field to try to assist the player attempting the challenge. They cannot directly make the challenge super easy, but they can cheer on the player and perhaps help them keep the little annoying minions at bay by hitting a switch only they can hit to close a door, and throw freeze vials at those pesky oilers when they get into the battle! A true solo party would make the battle harder is what I'm getting at, but still doable. Maybe we could have a health capsule throwable...

    Progressional enemy difficulty would be a good thing, perhaps introduce champion versions of the enemies Binding of Isaac style. (For all of you not familiar with the Binding of Isaac, champions are versions of the monsters that are more difficult or have a perk that make them different, such as exploding on death, randomly firing a projectile, or leave a trail of hazardous goop on the ground where they walk. These monsters randomly replace standard monsters in every room) Heck, you could make champions an arcade-only thing if you wanted. Ever thought you had mastered the royal jelly palace? Now there are two smaller royal jellies that attack faster, good luck. Vanaduke too easy? You have a chance that he'll be bigger, slower, have less health, but he's immune to all statuses. Oh, and he also loves his mace swinging.

    TL;DR: Client-side all the things and make consumables recharge on their own and with battery-like things. Make loot progress based on levels completed, not depth. Solo challenge rooms with teammates throwing vials in and hitting switches would be great, and multiplayer puzzles are cool. Binding of Isaac-styled champion monsters and bosses would be a great addition to the arcade.

    Thu, 11/13/2014 - 16:39
    #14
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    @Fangel

    I would agree with making things droppable. I put that in the OP, because it would be kind of necessary to be able to do that in order to pick and choose between the various things that you would find. The code to let us drop things has got to be around somewhere... The same goes for this being client sided. No sharing of pods or consumables, as that would allow for knights to trade them and end up with the same general setup every time. For instance, I'm a "gunner" and I find the bomb CTR pod? I give it to you, and you give me your handgun ASI pod. Like no. We don't want that. Client side it.

    Most missions would be made to fit the general outline of build up, get loot, kill boss that I described. Keep in mind that most randomly generated levels would be given variables such as location, that would determine which of these they are. For instance, the game could spawn a wolver den as either a loot level, or a building up level, or even a miniboss level that housed a larger treasure area and a fight against a huge number of dustbuns, wolvers, lumbers, the likes of which we have never seen before- a challenge and reward type thing. In doing so, missions would only have to tell the level generator whether the level is towards the start, middle, or at the end.

    Champion enemies would be welcome, but more than that just enemies that are tougher in various ways as you progress. They would get tougher with the depth of the challenge, just as your loot changes from consumables and passive benefits to raw treasure boxes. By various ways, I don't mean just more health/damage/resistance either. I mean like, different AI, the ability to turn invisible, teleportation, anything to mix it up. These kinds of buffs would effect all enemies spawned in an area the same way. For instance, grievers on your level might be able to turn invisible. They'd also have an effect on them so that you'd know what was up.

    And yeah, someone would complain. They always do... this just isn't about pleasing people in the short run. It's about legitimately making the game better, which is something that has often been neglected.

    @Fe-Tarkus

    I'd be OK with that- it would allow for a curious set of builds such as:

    Maskeraith
    Pure defense gear

    Curse Vial
    Recon Flare
    Mecha Knight Kit
    Air Strike
    Shock Barrier
    Fire Barrier

    With this build, you wouldn't really need your weapons. Instead, you would want to use invisibilty + curse vials to kill menders and turrets, and then continue to buff your team using the recon flare/mecha knight kit, while fighting with your shock/fire barrier and potentially mask's quills.

    On the one hand, builds like this would actually be pretty unique and interesting, pulling everyone towards the same power level. On the other hand, your weapons would be entirely arbitrary, and I'm not sure if that's such a good thing. If this sort of opportunity didn't come up that often I could see it working out however.

    The flip side would be craaazzzzy stats. For instance-

    Black Kat/Chaos

    Pills
    2X Status resistance for whatever you're against
    3X MSI/damage/asi/ctr/...

    And oh my god would you be strong. You'd have very close to maxed out stats, and no real penalties against whatever it is you're fighting... and that isn't even considering the bit where you have 2 trinket slots and a sprite skill left to go.

    I mean, allowing players wearing say, cobalt to get this would really help to bridge the gap between them and super pay to win at punch with the black kat type players, even when both players got it... so it would be somewhat beneficial on that front.

    I guess really this would be a judgement call on the part of the developers.

    ---------------------

    As for rechargeable vials/barriers, imagine them having a 30 second cooldown, or 45 seconds if curse, as that can far too easily take out healers/turrets. So maybe you have a shock vial and a poison barrier in your setup. They'd change the way you fought. Every few encounters, you could be an opportunist and use your vial or barrier to your advantage.

    Currently, this is about what they allow you to do because there is a fairly good chance that the mob will just drop another barrier or vial. The problem though, is that we all want to save the vials because it's so unnecessary to use them and it just feels wasteful to use them against 2-3 enemies.

    And you're not supposed to get the ones you want. You're supposed to get a random assortment of them, and have to pick and choose. .

    Sat, 11/15/2014 - 12:23
    #15
    Fangel's picture
    Fangel
    On the level progression tidbit

    The way you propose the new build-to-loot system with missions sounds a bit like the current setup unless I'm reading into it wrong. Would missions with, say, 3 levels have a one floor build, one floor challenge, and then one floor rewards? Or would it be set up like two floors build, one floor challenge? Or would it be something set up that the developers would have to balance? That would be quite a bit of time involved to customize each floor of every mission with a certain loot label... But it might be something worthwhile in the end!

    If we can change up how the system works per mission instead of relying on depth that might work for the better. It might make the arcade boss tiers more popular than the mission ones, especially if all of the arcade firestorm citadel is a "challenge" with the post-vanaduke fight room and the core acting as "rewards" floors, whereas the mission variants has the first two floors acting as a build, next two as challenge, and post-vanaduke fight room as "rewards", ignoring the core outside of the mission setup.
    Alternatively have there be a multiplier for these things that go per elevator reached. Have the multiplier for items be at x4 at the start and loot at x0.5. Then half items per elevator until it is x0.5 and loot is increased by 0.25 for each elevator, to a maximum of x2. To get payout like before, you need to complete 4 levels, and if you complete more you get overall more loot. Heck, you could have the loot multiplier go down by 0.25 every time you go down so that if you're constantly going down on elite maybe you should consider going back to advanced as if you don't die you'll be getting more loot anyways. If your entire party shares the same multiplier or it averages out to be a x1.5 loot multiplier, then the "champion" enemies start to replace enemies occasionally. The longer your party stays alive with the larger multipliers, the more champions spawn.

    But also it would be much nicer or the champions to be singular with a twist rather than every enemy of that type be something different, such as only using one attack but attacking super fast, or deathmarking players when they are killed. Having every gremlin be randomized to a super fast wrench throw might overpower players, whereas a single gremlin doing that would work much better... Maybe even one gremlin doing that and a champion mender who only uses runes. That's already come super difficult without a source of poison.

    Fri, 11/14/2014 - 12:50
    #16
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    I tried to stay true to the original vision of what Spiral Knights should be when I wrote this, so yes, this general format is entirely based on the way the game played originally- first, you'd go through an odd stratum, which was easier and provided you with pills and a vitapod. Then, you would go through boss levels, and finally, you would fight the boss and receive a reward. You could join midway through the boss levels, but wouldn't be as strong and would lose out on the boss loot a bit.

    I'd say that different missions would have different builds. For instance, "the gauntlet" would be two levels of building up for the bit climax of fighting the three varied arenas, while other missions like Arkus would be better suited for one level of building up, one level of getting loot and one level of fighting arkus as the big arena. Bosses would likely have an accelerated rate of build up, so that players can still go to them quickly and jump right in, but like you're saying, the arcade would end up being slightly more lucrative. For instance, mission FSC's first level would be build up, then 3 of loot and one of boss, while arcade FSC's first level would be loot as well, making the later levels even more lucrative... would it be worth joining to FSC through the missions? Yes, but if you can sit down for a bit longer and play the arcade, you'll have an easier time and make about the same overall-- as if you had just skipped to it. If you tried joining directly to a party at D23 to skip the build up, you'd better have some pretty nice gear because you're going to have a relatively hard time finding any of the cool passive benefits or buffed up vials. Pills would be harder to find as well, but would still drop quite frequently.

    Having single enemies become champions would be OK. It doesn't really accomplish what I want it to in this case, but I do like the idea. I even suggested it at one point, because it is definitely not bad. The reason I said to have all of them become buffed up was so that levels really felt different per run, and so that the difficulty increases to make up for the build up period. If the knight has massive stats and pills, massive enemies only seems fair. The build up levels would have regular mobs.... Another thing I could see happening would be generating introductory enemies and then expanding them into crowds. For instance:

    A set of 2 gremlin menders appears towards the front of the level. They have hacked auras, a black tint and can teleport with a cooldown. You then encounter 4 gremlin demos that use small ice themed haze bombs to deny area- this gremlin demo has a frosty aura and is slightly blue tinted. Everything else you see is normal. At a future arena on the level that features these mobs, there would be a good chance to spawn the special mob in place of all or some of the enemies. You'd know what they'd look like and would have a feel for how to destroy them, because they were introduced under a manageable circumstance. On the next level, these same enemies would be fair game to use in place of their respective mob, and would basically add to the pallet of mobs. If you were going from a gremlin level to a fiend level, there may be an arena or two that would include the special monsters from the previous level in spite of them being gremlins. A new fiend monster variant would be added as well, and so on.

    To my knowledge, there are currently zero games that do this.

    Fri, 11/14/2014 - 14:38
    #17
    Fangel's picture
    Fangel
    Okay! Sounds better already!

    I was suggesting a more client-sided experience in my area but your method would work great too here.

    For the consumables, how about lower tier items dropping after build phases? If you join to a tier 3 firestorm citadel run but skip the build phase, maybe you can find tier 2 pills and tier 1 vials. It would certainly promote staying the entire run and not randomly joining players simply for the loot. The method I suggested would make running earlier tiers to get a multiplier bonus a fun thing to do. I want an excuse to just not speedrun through odd strata when I'm hunting for loot.

    Making every run unique is a great thing to work on, but changing AI behavior can be hazardous. When an enemy always does one thing and instead does something else, it starts to get frustrating to the player. With champions there could be overall replacements of enemies, but that is what happens in the tier changes anyways. Introducing enemies like you suggest would be great, especially if we added them into rank missions as well... However the random factor allows for players to be surprised by enemies and have to adjust on the fly rather than being introduced to an enemy and then soon fighting them like any other enemy. Imagine that an enemy deathmarks you when it dies - you'd set priorities for or against it. If you're being swarmed, the last thing you want to do is take out that enemy as all your defense goes bye-bye. Similarly, an enemy that explodes like a blast cube when killed you would want to pick off from a distance. Maybe they have lower health too.
    Having some visual indicator that an enemy will act a certain way is mandatory for this system to really work. Say the explosive enemy is either shaded to be darker, or has a sort of black-reskinned dreadful aura on it. These might become frustrating if they were all you were fighting however, as everything explodes in your face. This also allows any enemy that has these visuals to be taken into consideration, as the "explosive" silkwing will do the same thing when it dies as the "explosive" lumber.

    Essentially, the player should gain some challenge that is randomized - that is for sure. However, replacing enemies always is where I stray away. I would rather have half the enemies spawn as various kinds of champions (one can be explosive, one can shoot out apocrean tentacles in a cross when killed, one attacks faster with range but slower with melee...) than have all enemies take on a new form that can have adaptive play added onto it. Also if we can create a sort of additive difficulty, in that champions spawn more frequently the less you and your party have fallen in battle, then that makes the game harder for players who do play better, and doesn't ramp up the difficulty for players who are still learning the ropes.

    Fri, 11/21/2014 - 13:54
    #18
    Jmmoormann's picture
    Jmmoormann
    1 more thing

    There is still 1 point I still miss and that is:

    Crafting

    Crafting has basically 3 required components.

    -Heating: this is fine for me. Except for Radiants (but they are not really required to craft) crystals are not that rare. The heating system requires people to actually go into the Clockworks and not just buy some energy>orbs and craft. It would be nice however to change that a lvl 10 4* weapon is stronger than a lvl 6 5* weapon, forcing people to not upcraft their 4* weapons because they would basically lose power.

    -Materials: this is the very most stupid thing in the game. Is there any player in the game who ever thought "Oh no, I'm out of light shards, now I have to go to a ... themed stratum to search for them". For me, crafting material costs (especially the lower star ones) could be increased by 500-1000%. Currently the only thing people need is rarities, what means "Lets speedrun a level with lots of boxes and skip all enemies, because enemies drop mats and what can you do with mats?" Currently when you find a mat in a box you are greatly disappointed: you would rather have crowns, heat or maybe even a sweet sweet orb. Wouldn't it be fun if when you open a treasure box you hope that it contains a mat? And that mats could be sold for more than 1cr in the AH?

    -Orbs: I'm not sure about this. A lot of people complain about how rare they are. At the other hand, if orbs would be more common, OOO would sell even less energy and be forced to focus even more on promos. And orbs increase the playing time quite a lot: without orbs you could get almost every single item in a few weeks. What could be nice is increasing drop rate by around 3300%, but also make it cost 100 orbs to craft something. Overall grinding time remains the same, but this way you would at least know you're making progress, instead of praying to RNGsus everytime you open a treasure box.

    Fri, 11/21/2014 - 14:32
    #19
    Gbot-Vtwo's picture
    Gbot-Vtwo
    +1

    +1

    Fri, 11/21/2014 - 23:09
    #20
    Keepscaite's picture
    Keepscaite
    @Jmoorman

    ...I think you're better off making a new thread if you wanna talk about changes to crafting.

    Fri, 11/21/2014 - 23:48
    #21
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    I tried to keep this separate from the crafting system. It would work well with our current crafting scheme, or most other crafting schemes. I'd personally like to see materials made into the main cost for crafting weapons, with the forge made into an optional feature that just sped up heating without actually changing heat requirements. You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar, as the saying goes- if the forge sped up heating instead of blocked it, players would see it as a good feature, even if the time requirements etc. were the same.

    Mon, 11/24/2014 - 01:28
    #22
    Pawsmack's picture
    Pawsmack
    @OP/Fehzor +1

    Clockworks could definitely use some refining and I like your idea of it.

    Tue, 11/25/2014 - 17:14
    #23
    Supnaplamqw's picture
    Supnaplamqw
    BTW

    Could there be puzzle that require you do "something" to an enemy temporarily (EX: freezing an enemy for the purpose of X) w/o neccesarily killing it?
    Would there be enemies specifically to "mess up" one's progress in a puzzle?
    AS for enemy strength,could there be sections where you have to complete a puzzle fast enough in order to get a reward at the end,b/f the 'thief' gets it?

    Wed, 01/14/2015 - 15:46
    #24
    Pery-Alaois's picture
    Pery-Alaois
    This is a good idea. The game

    This is a good idea. The game really needs this.

    Postscript- Sorry for the necro.

    Thu, 01/15/2015 - 21:41
    #25
    Chaos-Mist's picture
    Chaos-Mist
    +2

    +2
    An idea I had before was the solo button. This is the opposite of a party button - the button will only activate while 1 person is in the room and no more. This would force parties to split up sometimes. The solo button would also have 2/3 player alternatives.
    The reason I'm saying this is because I think it coincides (wrong word?) with your puzzle element very nicely. Some puzzles may be made up of multiple elements that all members of a party have to complete, but they have no support from their teammates. This could even go to the degree of special missions based purely on the puzzle aspect with close to no mobs. Using the 'sign-post' idea someone posted (can't remember which one of you it was and can't be asked to read back through...this is a lot of writing I've just read through xD) you could know what each of the multiple routes entail and assign party members accordingly.
    Another utility weapon that could be used is a gate-switch. Some levels could have gates that do not work (the grey ones that don't work until you try and carry something through...but without the 'working when you carry something through' part) and require the utility to switch on. This could block enemies (or even teammates) from crossing that border (in the case of 1-way gates). This spawns off another possible idea in the area of Clockwork-Racing. Making it an actual mode where players can place ghost blocks or activate gates to stall their opponents. They'd also have to choose carefully about which routes to take to reach the end, assessing which routes may have been booby-trapped (maybe a utility that activates traps) by the opponent and which routes are going to be too slow.
    Something I actually think would help OOO in the long term regarding your idea is an SK level builder. OOO can have someone look through the levels and publish their favourites into the game. This would save them alot of time in designing the levels.

    Fri, 01/16/2015 - 06:46
    #26
    Fehzor's picture
    Fehzor

    The button+splitting up idea would actually be really awesome. Imagine an area with 2 paths- each for half the party. One path has some mild combat, but controls the other path via switches which has a ton of awful respawning mobs, gates, things like that.. but also a button at the end that unlocks the door to get through.

    I'm sure that one person alone could trigger a button that adds the switches in on their side or some such, or perhaps the second side only makes things vastly easier, like that one part of the roarmulus twins.

    Sat, 01/17/2015 - 17:14
    #27
    Chaos-Mist's picture
    Chaos-Mist
    Level Builder

    I understand it isn't my main point but I really think it should be taken into heavy consideration. It would save OOO alot of time so they could focus on their updates more (as what happened in the gunner update was good for no-one (OOO got so much hate that you have to feel they were alot worse off than the players)).

    Sat, 01/17/2015 - 17:20
    #28
    Supnaplamqw's picture
    Supnaplamqw
    Another +100000000000 to this idea

    "this could even go to the degree of special missions based purely on the puzzle aspect with close to no mobs."
    Imagine if there was a set of levels that revolved around this idea w/ multiple overarching paths for the sake of lore.

    Sat, 01/17/2015 - 17:42
    #29
    Chaos-Mist's picture
    Chaos-Mist
    Keep it alive!

    People need to keep posting this to keep it high up in the suggestions list.

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