Antigua Line Sucks?

19 replies [Last post]
Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv

I think I DID post too much :(

Well..... now my concern is that the Antigua line is getting seriously down rated. Everyone is says that is you want to get an antigua, get a damage type blaster. Personally, I think the Antigua has a better damage (in any form except for per shot) becasue of its huge clip and faster reload. I love the blackhawk, and adding gunslinger armor that gives it damage bonus makes it deadly. Why do you guys think its so bad? Its pretty good. And Gilded Griffin is a good gun for Fiends and Wolvers. So, whats so bad about it? It seems pretty good for me.

(extra question: what costume is the knights in my profile picture wearing? xD I like it)

Trats-Romra's picture
Trats-Romra

Well...
I can't say by now, because of the gunner update. But Antigua used to be a good pair with a sword. You can rapidly shot on enemy from far, do an approach and hit with a sword, having less worry with reload animation.

Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

What's bad about it is that the blasters (as well as other guns) do more damage per bullet (and DPS in general). But lets say you're hiding behind a rock and have to jump out to shoot- would you rather have to jump out and shoot several bullets, or only a few? The same holds true for any situations that requires you to be shooting.

Damage numbers (max damage, T2 training hall):
Riftlocker vs beasts: 104
Gilded Griffin vs beasts: 63

Riftlocker (2 hits snuck in): 208
Gilded Griffin (3 hits snuck in):189

So in order for you to make griffin worthwhile under these circumstances, you have to get in 1.66 shots for every 1 hit you'd have to get in with riftlocker, which is problematic when it comes to the main event of sneaking damage in.

What's good about it is that shooting a ton of shots can let you break a lot of blocks and hit a lot of switches quickly. This makes it the ideal weapon for levels like Ironclaw Munitions factory and arenas with lots of respawning explosive blocks, but blasters aren't much worse at hitting switches and will serve you better overall. The fiend/gremlin/undead buffs are all very nice and can be quite useful, but leave the weapon feeling awfully circumstantial in many situations. Really, these guns are for knights that already have a ton of gear and want to optimize. Maybe your loadout for gremlins needs sentenza in particular for whatever reason- that's up to you to decide.

Traevelliath's picture
Traevelliath

I love Antiguas. As someone who is rich/insane enough to get all 4 Antiguas and all 4 Blasters, I've had plenty of experience with both. Antiguas easily do more damage with the larger clip and innate damage bonuses vs certain families (or poison). I use them all the time between sword combos to keep applying sustained damage. The benefit of blasters is the stagger/knockback. While it is nice, it doesn't give you the same sustained damage.

Of course the usual counter I hear to the "damage vs utility" argument is, "well if you want damage just get an Alchemer." Alchemers work best against large groups of enemies, which is why I tend to recommend them over Antiguas for gunners. However, a swordsman can just charge into hordes swinging his blade. Antiguas shine when you need to finish off lone weakened enemies. Quick, but sustained ranged damage with no setup and without sacrificing a lot of mobility. This is what Alchemers really struggle with, and why I suggest Antiguas over Alchemers to swordsmen.

And it looks like your knight is wearing a Skolver Coat with either a Magic Hood or a Divine Veil

Bopp's picture
Bopp
my two cents

We've been through all of this already, haven't we? You ask about antiguas vs. blasters, as if those are the only kinds of guns. There are many other kinds. Which one you prefer depends somewhat on your play style, your offensive bonuses, etc.

For example, you can talk about using a Sentenza or Obsidian Carbine to interrupt a gremlin mender until it dies. But I just kill it instantly with an Umbra Driver shot.

You can talk about suppressing a gun puppy with Polaris until it dies. But I just kill it instantly with a Nova Driver shot.

I'm mainly a sworder (when I'm not a bomber), and I've never bought the argument that there are "gunner guns" and "sworder sidearm guns". Sworders should just be using the best guns, regardless of their learning curves. None of the weapons in this game take more than an hour to learn anyway.

Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
@Bopp My thought is that

@Bopp

My thought is that drivers take a while to become effective- first, they need to be five star, then they need to be given ctr and then they need to be mastered. That's a lot of work and a lot of money spent on UVs for someone that plans to use swords for everything. Rather, their play style would benefit more from suppressive fire as they approach to use their sword on that enemy, and if it doesn't then they're really playing more of a sword gun hybrid and there isn't anything wrong with that, it just isn't entirely oriented on using tricked out swords.

Of course, they'd probably end up switching to the driver setup eventually when they can afford it, because that sort of hybrid class is definitely better than just being a sword user. Everyone ends up as the hybrid master race eventually if they stick around.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
sworder with sidearm vs. hybrid

I'm not sure that I recognize the distinction between "sworder who uses a sidearm gun" and "hybrid sworder-gunner". If you're not using your gun much, then don't carry it. If you are using the gun much, then you're hybrid.

That said, a distinction could be drawn between damage-oriented guns (e.g. Nova) and support-oriented guns (e.g. Polaris). And you could say that a "sworder with sidearm" is someone who uses swords and support guns, while a "hybrid sworder-gunner" is someone who uses swords and damage guns.

But even then Argent, Sentenza, and the blasters fall on the damage side, not the support side. And the alchemers outshine them in terms of damage. Obsidian Carbine could be regarded as support, due to the poison.

Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Consider the start of ghosts in the machine. If you don't have a gun there you're going to be disadvantaged massively. But you don't use guns, like ever.. So your swords will always be better for you in terms of damage except when you really just need a gun.

A single nova driver shot that ricochets internally once is better than two blaster shots (according to the wiki), but that only applies if you get the extra damage more than half of the time. If you're using one of the status drivers, blaster shots will always do a bit more at the two to one ratio. This aspect comes into play when you think about what it takes to get in those driver shots effectively- positioning and a bit of mental calculation, both of which are resources that could be benefiting your sword.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
charges

Your comments are reasonable. Certainly the claim "alchemers do high damage" depends on some assumptions about how often the ricochets land. There are a lot of details to consider.

To some extent we are talking past each other, because I am thinking of charges and you seem to be thinking of regular attacks. To me, charge attacks fill the utility role of a sworder sidearm better than regular attacks do. Suppose I need to take out a turret that I can't reach easily with my sword, because it is semi-protected by spikes or low walls. I charge my weapon, approach to within range, and kill the turret in one shot. I don't hang out in the danger zone peppering the turret with little attacks.

Your mental resources argument does not convince me. If I'm a sworder and the tactical situation lets me use my sword, then I use my sword. I use my sidearm gun only if the tactical situation prevents me from using my sword. And then I don't need mental resources for my sword; I just concentrate on my gun.

By the way, I use Nova Driver in Ghosts in the Machine. Of course my main weapon is an elemental sword. Sometimes I have replaced Nova with another sword (for kicks) or a bomb (to try other tactics).

Bopp's picture
Bopp
addendum

My posts rely on some other unstated context:

I usually play solo. Taking out a gremlin mender with an Umbra charge is more difficult in a party, where your teammate is flinching the mender with little gunshots. Party play favors many small hits over a few big hits.

I never play with four weapon slots. I play with two or sometimes three. Someone with four slots might be willing to fill a slot with an antigua, just for breaking blocks and hitting switches. But that level of convenience is not a high priority for me, and doesn't enter into my two- and three-weapon loadouts.

Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
wenk

Upside:
It has far more potential for breaking blocks than other guns.
You can also engage multiple enemies more easily.
Lack of knockback and the low flinch rate means teammates can easily predict enemy movement.

Downside:
Low damage, no knockback, and low flinch chance per bullet means that solo play is harder than when using a Blaster variant.
Excessive strain on finger muscles.
Rewards button mashing and not intuitive gameplay (alchemer charges, Pulsar herding, Catalyzer timing, etc)

Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
Lel...

How does breaking your fingers/finger muscles dieing count?
Anyways... I know the alchemer has a very powerful charge attack since I have the storm driver, but I can't internally richochet very well. And I like the antiguas because it seem to do more damage OVER TIME. Which is pretty much what you need for FSC and JK. Using blackhawk in JK seems better than using Master Blaster in JK. As Holy-Nightmare said, you can engage multiple enemies easily, which is why its perfect for FSC and JK. Im going for all three 4* variants of the Antigua and heat it up to 10, and using Cyclips/Shadowsun stetson and Sentinel armor to boost its damage.Is that a good idea?

Also, even though both Cyclops Cap and Shadowsun Stetson has damage bonus medium, do they increase the same amount of damage?

Bopp's picture
Bopp
yes

Also, even though both Cyclops Cap and Shadowsun Stetson has damage bonus medium, do they increase the same amount of damage?

Yes. Medium is Medium. Also, Medium is equal to two Lows, or one half of a Very High. See the wiki page "Abilities" for more detail.

Im going for all three 4* variants of the Antigua and heat it up to 10, and using Cyclips/Shadowsun stetson and Sentinel armor to boost its damage.Is that a good idea?

It's a fine idea. You'll do an adequate amount of damage.

By the way, some people really like the antigua-style charge attack, but most of us find it nearly unusable. If you agree, then don't worry about getting CTR; focus on ASI, damage bonus, and MSI instead.

Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Bopp

The charge has to used smartly to work. The best is the Obsidian Carbine since it can poison the enemy making it safer if you fail.

You have to make sure enemies are at the MAX range of the charge, targeting you (more likely to walk into bullets), not a dodging type.

If shooting at a turret (except rockets and Red rovers), sidestep the incoming bullets before unleashing it. This should let you get the charge out before they can fire again and give you time to dodge the next volley.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
right

Thanks, but I've tried all of that, and doesn't it kind of bolster my argument? You're saying that you can charge safely only at certain places (maximum range). And only at certain times (right after projectiles pass you). And it goes without saying that you can't have any other monsters about to attack you. Yes, the charge can be used in ideal situations.

Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
Hm...

Im not gonna go for CTR. It seems fine without it.
Also, I don't know if these are glitches or something but:
1. The last bullet from my blackhawk in the charge seems to fire before the animation makes it seems for it to go.
2. The last bullet from my blackhawk in the charge seems to spawn 1 square or something in front of me, therefore not letting me hit enemies within that square.

Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
OH also

Also I noticed the Apocrea thing is back up :D (yay!) Should I get the Obsidian Carbine? Is it better or worse than the Sentenza? Cause I have heat lvl5 blackhawk. Also, is the BMB owrth it? Obsidian crusher seems ok.... I have Graviton Bomb too xD

Bopp's picture
Bopp
Obsidian weapons

Try searching Google for something like "obsidian sentenza site:forums.spiralknights.com" (without the quotation marks). You should find discussions. The short answer is that most players find Obsidian's poison more useful than Sentenza's gremlin bonus.

Similarly, Obsidian Crusher's poison makes it slightly better than Graviton Vortex, although players prefer Electron Vortex over both of those.

Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I suppose that really my philosophy is that sword users without any handgun ctr shouldn't be using handgun charges so often as it leaves them vulnerable while they charge. If the driver in question came with ctr: high or very high automatically, then I would probably think differently... but I don't think that investing so heavily in a handgun is what people aiming to use swords are after, at least not at first.

I do play in parties most of the time as well, so that would explain some of the differences-- being in a party makes things chaotic and guns like the blasters help to control that.

And lastly, this whole debate is probably a result of the items all being too similar. What do they do that's similar? They strafe and shoot at things and deal damage. What are the differences? Clip size, speed of shooting and damage, but not damage type. It's too close to direct competition (which leads to imbalance) for my taste.

---

Obsidian crusher is a great bomb because it fulfills the roles of both venom veilor and electron vortex, although both are better at their respective jobs.

Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Bopp

The usefulness of charge attacks vary per weapon.

Catalyzers have powerful charges with high utility as a flinch weapon.
Magnus style weapons have powerful charges and knockback.

Both of these have comparably weak regular attacks. But they have their place, catalyzers tag Ghostmanes and recons while magnus/autogun switch shooting provides good firepower and flinch.

On the other side we have Flourishes with hard to use charges but reliable and powerful regular attacks.