Spiral Knights - Special Categories - Numeric Organization, Unconventional Use

Special Categories - Numeric Organization, Unconventional Use

8 replies [Last post]

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 01:39

Dracora-Speaking

In the words of Jurassic Park, I was "so preoccupied with whether or not [we] could that [I] didn't stop to think if [we] should." So here I am on the forums! I have confirmed that...we can. But should we? Thoughts below:

Project: organizing the massive number of SK aesthetics by their aesthetic properties utilizing category pages.

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I've tried this project a few times, with mixed feedback from editors/forum users/players. Bear in mind that the examples listed in some of these are out of date and won't make sense, I'm just linking to them here for historical purposes regarding "progress."

1) First Time. Generally negative feedback on category part, but the desire to organize these things in some way is there, and disfavor of other tedious methods led to the next changes.
2) Second Time. No feedback, cleaner format.

3) (this time): very clean format, consistent between category branches (themed, sfx, families). Check "special effect" list of category links and "color pattern" list of category links for examples. here is a list of families I've drummed up so far. I plan on making one for "nature" things (mossy ancient, serene, flowers, leafy/blossom, etc).

Changes from 1 to 2: cleaned up idea, focused on category organization instead of horizontal tables

Changes from 2 to 3: eliminated "middle man" pages (like "military" now just goes right to Category:Military-Themed) and using a numeric system to force organization in category pages. This is largely unfinished regarding numeric organization, as it requires manual input on individual pages, and that's work I won't do unless more people give positive feedback. It's work I'm willing to undo if people don't like it at all.

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Pros:
-users can now find aesthetics they want easily. I want a helmet to go with my suit. I want a sword to show it off in the field. Etc.

-Easy to maintain.

-users do not need to know names of items to find items in general with this system. Even players who know most items might find things they didn't know existed using this system.

-easy to update (once you get/remember what #s mean, numbers are used because they don't repeat like letters do)

Cons:
-unconventional, potentially confusing-for-new editors use of category pages.

-easy to make mistakes with # system, I did a few times because of copypaste derps and being tired.

-large organizational changes require lots of tedious manual input, but only to "get the project on its feet." After that, it's copypaste maintenance.

-categories seem to have trouble organizing themselves within-sections when forced to be organized numerically. It is no longer alphabetical, and seems to frequently be "in the order added" but it's also...not that very frequently. Unsure if browser issue. Not a big deal considering the needs of the userbase in relation to this organization method, but annoying.

-many cat tags are in place due to opinion. Does hazardous "glow"? What do people want when they search for glow? Glowing light only? Glowing as if heated with radiation? Etc.... very opinionated when it comes to SFX (something that I've been working on by myself, but that several guildies seem to appreciate, specifically for sheen). Started the SFX project ages ago with this thread, feedback = "why not."

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Options:
-continue the project as-is, with improvements as they are suggested, if people like it.
-scrap the project. A lot of work to undo, and then what should we do about all those accessories that technically don't even have their own pages? Mass redirect with category tags on them? And then how do we organize things aesthetically...with annoying-to-update pages? I'm willing to work either way, since I refuse to leave messes for others, if something is deemed by the majority to be "a mess." We've gone through other options regarding this already that we don't like, or don't like enough - before scrapping, I'd like to see the other options we might have. Sortable lists maybe?
-if people REALLY like the numeric category system, I will continue to do other things like this (though arguably, this is better on its own page in a sortable list with item type/level/and other data).

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TL;DR:
Look at the Special Effects and Color Pattern pages. Navigate to the categories they link to in the "name" column. Most are unfinished because this is work, and I don't want to do work people don't like.

Does your gut like it? Your mind? Why/why not? Feedback here.

For log/question purposes, a master list of "unusual categories" is here. Anything that is Template:Category/BLAH is "unusual" in some way. Just use "what links here" for each.

There is a balance between letting categories "just exist" and getting real usage out of them. Let's find that balance.

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 15:37

Bopp

your tl;dr

Your TL;DR has links that the rest of your post doesn't have. That's uncommon for a TL;DR.

Those two linked pages look good. Category:Burning-SFX and Category:Curse-Themed look good.

I don't understand the logic behind the numeric names. This is all to help them sort better or something?

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 21:09

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

Oh, I thought I linked them up top, oh well. But that likely means you read it, so silver lining.

Yes, the numbers force the categories to sort things under those numbers, instead of by their first (capital) letters. As far as the logic behind "what numbers mean what," there is none, other than making sure items group together (helmet first, armor second). You have to start somewhere, I figure "1" is logical. Actually, the "+" symbol is meant to look like the in-game accessory symbol, yes. I fooled around with unicode characters for a while to try and find things that looked like shields and whatnot, but they didn't look enough like game icons, and numbers are simpler, and this whole thing is "complex" so simple is better whenever possible. Run-on sentences.

Thanks for feedback - will let this sit more until enough time passes and we conclude nobody else cares, or more people have replied. I'm sure you can tell by recent edits that a large, much more important project is budding.

Wed, 03/11/2015 - 06:26

Bopp

why not sort alphabetically?

Sorry, but if we didn't use the numeric names, then which list would sort alphabetically, and why is that bad?

Wed, 03/11/2015 - 07:21

Dracora-Speaking

Bopp

Because...then players can't easily find helmets, armor, etc. Most items have "helm" in the name, but...is it a costume? Or an actual combat item? Alphabetical doesn't help at all with this (since "helm" "mask" etc. is almost always last in the name) especially for new players. The other option(s) were to have elaborate tables and/or sortable lists, which were generally frowned upon in the posted threads due to their potentially very large size and that they required much more maintenance. Sorta the reason for the whole project in the first place. I wouldn't expect someone to read all those threads - so, that's the core of this whole project, attempting to achieve the goal of "organizing the massive number of SK aesthetics by their aesthetic properties utilizing category pages."

All it takes is to add a "|" and a # before closing the [[Category:Blablah]] link, like so: [[Category:Blahblah-Themed|3]]. My concern is that this is unconventional and could lead to confusion down the road. But if the pages look good, and function seamlessly, then we can just correct people as they go. Which we have to do for almost everything anyway, haha.

Wed, 03/11/2015 - 09:05

Bopp

what was confusing me

The main part of my question...

Sorry, but if we didn't use the numeric names, then which list would sort alphabetically, and why is that bad?

...was the "which list" part. If I understand correctly, it's the list of pages in Category:Adamant-SFX (for example).

Isn't this what subcategories are for? But you're trying to avoid having a giant tree structure of categories?

Wed, 03/11/2015 - 09:31

Slice-And-Impale

Ehhhh…

Doing this seems extrodinarily difficult to pull off. I am in favor of this idea but i believe there are more important matters to attend to (like the weapon management project) Maybe this could be a side project

Wed, 03/11/2015 - 09:34

Slice-And-Impale

moar

Maybe a set of visuals long with the list of themed gear. like the accesroy page. It gives the name and an image of the accesory

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 15:08

Dracora-Speaking

@Feedback

Bopp: yes, avoiding a giant weedytree of subcategories is ideal. I've been yelled at for that before :P

Slice-And-Impale: thank you! And yes, we are putting this on hold until we get more feedback, and until other more important things are complete.

Slice-And-Impale (moar): do you mean like what we've done with most of the SFX category pages, in addition to the color codes? A visual example? If so, that's doable, and is similar to the "random examples" we had on archaic middleman pages that I requested the removal of to reduce the # of clicks/editor workload.

If you mean an entire sortable list, no, we don't want to do that, as decided in previous discussions in the linked threads above. Also I (as a mortal person, I swear I am not a robot) do not want to do it that way, I had a heck of a time making the lists for prize boxes, which were annoying because of the different naming conventions used for different types of items. If future editors wish to do a megasortable list for all aesthetics, I'd suggest looking at the coding I've done for "possible prizes" of boxes for quick access to the ridiculous plethora of different file naming conventions. Capital letters, hyphens, spaces, and word order drive me bonkers.

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Special Categories - Numeric Organization, Unconventional Use