Forums › English Language Forums › General › Suggestions

Search

PVP balancing feature (suggestion recon)

17 replies [Last post]
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 11:35
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare

So we all know recons have the short end of the stick when fighting, they can only hope to catch a Striker or guardian with their shield down and in range and thanks to the Deathmark Alert it becomes obvious when a recon is about. Strikers boost out, Guardians raise their shield, and everyone starts looking for your footsteps. This combined with your low walk speed while cloaked means you are unlikely to invisibly chase someone down.

My Suggestion:

When the recon activates the cloak have footsteps continue moving in whichever direction the recon was facing when the cloak was activated. In order to empower this ability more make the false footsteps more obvious while not showing the real recon's steps. This would make the recon even better at sneaking around since he/she would be unseen and would misdirect the enemy.

Have the recon come with a natural, unmodifiable MSI of High, this combined with the suggestion of this thread:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/108689

would make the recon more of a threat to strikers who aren't using boost (or ran out of boost).

Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:08
#1
Zincamania-Forum
giving recons MSI high will

giving recons MSI high will make it easier to stay out of range while spamming alchemers though.

Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:37
#2
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ water

This would make Guardians more valuable to teams

in conjunction with this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/108938

Until Deathmarked, guardians would take little damage to their shield from gunfire, this would allow them to cover a striker or two from damage while the strikers would them go after the recon.

Also with the removal of footsteps it would be easier to a recon to sneak up on (and stab) an alchemer spamming enemy.

_____________________________

I gave it a MSI high so that it would be a better assassin class, able to chase down enemies that aren't shielding and kill them. If in testing this boost proves too high then it could be limited to only give the speed buff while cloaked.

Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:45
#3
Zincamania-Forum
Guardians are already

Guardians are already valuable to teams. The thing is, you suggest a guardian should cover the striker while he kills the recon. Thats true, but that would be an uneven setup, ofcourse the striker+guardian will win vs the recon. I think the speedbuff while cloaked could work, but maybe give it a slight delay to avoid alchemer switchers to not get the boost while they cloak uncloak rapidly. I do agree that recons using swords feel underpowered, but recons do get a sword penalty, so maybe it was not intended to be used with swords. (much like how a striker gets ctr penalty for bombs)

Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:57
#4
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ water

The way the game is currently played it doesn't encourage teamwork as much, and with BK and other damage sets around the Guardian can't tank as well as it used to.

With my suggestions any players that goes solo would almost certainly lose to any group, the recon suggestions make it better at picking off those who also go alone or try to run to base to heal. The guardian gets a shield that only takes unboosted weapon damage and no flinch making it very hard to take out, the recon deathmark has the ability to put flinch back on the guardian shield, allow the shield to take damage with their boosts applied, and an added 20% more damage to the shield (pretty much shutting down a guardian for a short time).

A recon would have to use the shield abilities (with fake footsteps and deathmark) to lead the enemies into his team's territory so he can deathmark the guardian so his team can take care of that problem. The recon would then go and finish off the strikers.

Mon, 03/23/2015 - 20:14
#5
Crashburnboom's picture
Crashburnboom
Recon Speaking

I agree absolutely. Recon footprints feel... -frustrating- unnecessary. Removing it would say "no that striker didn't use my footprints to track me; he predicted me" and tie recon failure to themselves.

So, as I've stated in the Guardian PvP balance, I think that the meta should be Striker < Guardian < Recon < Striker

Strikers should be good against recons. Their natural speed advantage over recons makes it so.

But Recons should be good against (solo) Guardians and other solo enemies, as you have described.
Adding MSI: increase in it's shielded form would be nice as well, for chasing foes. Particularly slow ones. Helping recon attack unprotected, solo guardians. (as stated in the Guardian PvP Balance, Guardians should also get a MSI when allies are in the shield, but only when allies are in it)
I think that Recon's shield thing should also take away enemies's (active?) shields, including the Guardians.
(Optional; the stolen shield energy is added to their own)
This would help them be able to sneak up on solo Guardians and forcibly drain their shields (and death marking them); the Guardian must decide whether to unshield and risk their hp to search for the recon (lest their shield drain away).

I can imagine a recon taking away a shield, a guardian dropping the shield to prevent their shield from being drained, and then immediately being hit by a recon. Also, this adds interesting dynamics to the recon vs striker (and even recon vs recon) battles, where a recon can ALSO wait out/drain their opponent's shield (as strikers normally wait out recon shields)

Also add uncapping power, so that a recon can uncap a point faster? (and distract enemy strikers by uncapping unprotected points) That would be nice.

And Please remove Sword ASD. Many Recons use swords often.

(Sorry for spelling/diction mistakes). I hope these suggestions become a reality.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 08:23
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ crash

Stealing shield power might be too much, it would just encourage recons to hide forever and barely contribute to the success of the team.

I have another suggestion that would fill a similar slot: make it so that Deathmarked enemies take 10% longer to regain their shield once it breaks. This would make players more careful when fighting a recon with low shield and HP. Getting deathmarked and running out of shield would make you a prime target for everyone and with the speed reduction on unboosting striker a recon could easily cloak, and rush down on you before you get to spawn.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 11:29
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh

I wouldn't say a recon should get a MSI of high by default. Potentially they could have a MSI: low by default and get a MSI boost to MSI: High after a second of shielding (as to prevent a recon from getting the full movement speed boost while switchshooting).

I do like the idea of messing up other players with footsteps. Since recon is already about mind-games as is, perhaps when they cloak they can switch between dampened footsteps and loudened footsteps by hitting the attack button while shielding. What do I mean by this? Dampened footsteps is by default what you use when going into cloak, which sends footsteps in the way you were walking and disappears after a couple seconds. Loudened footsteps will create a phantom player who leaves footsteps within your deathmark range. Only you can see your phantom, and as long as you keep it within deathmark range it will be active... When you walk away from your phantom it will create another one starting from your player and begin wandering. When you switch from loudened footsteps to dampened footsteps, the footsteps will walk from the phantom player, not the actual player.

Bottom line is if you're going to have footsteps, you either need to have them be exploitable or invisible. I think 3 modes would work for a recon, the two I mentioned and the default it currently is right now. If you get that one striker on the other team used to you using the default footsteps, then switch over to loudened footsteps, they will be constantly missing you. If you want to sneak up on your foe, you switch to dampened. If the "attack while cloaked" button idea doesn't work, have the sprite skill buttons switch between footstep modes. By implementing these, the recon footsteps would be made more obvious so that casual players can pick up on it.

Remember: as a recon with damped footsteps you can essentially make your footsteps disappear.

TL;DR - MSI should only be while cloaked, and footsteps need to either be in the game and exploitable or removed for recons.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 12:03
#8
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Fangel

One idea should be made to work with footsteps, more than one would be complex and difficult to understand for new players.

The basic idea is to make the footsteps a tool to misdirect players or to make them ignore them completely (effectively making recon invisible). I would also be happier if recon was tested with both forms of MSI (one permanent and the other only when cloaking) to see which is the most balanced.

Perhaps the MSI would be applied a second after the player stops attacking (or holding a charge) this would let them move quickly uncloaked and cloaked so they can get around the map easier without having to use their cloak to get there.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 12:44
#9
Fangel's picture
Fangel
It's an idea

Basic idea is that a recon shouldn't be super fast while being seen, but when you're invisible you should be anywhere and everywhere. In order to get that bonus, you need to stay invisible. Just being fast by default makes enemy strikers just have to predict farther ahead after you cloak, whereas with a faster MSI once cloaked, it'll be harder to adjust to the fast-slow difference that happens.

But yeah, bottom line is footsteps are a problem with recon. Making them less reliable is basically removing them, but I think it would be wonderful if we could make footsteps an integral part of playing recon.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 17:27
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Wouldn't strikers just kind of.. you know, figure out how it worked and not go after the footsteps? They just check everywhere whenever they see me right now anyway. You mark them and they go berserk, breaking bushes and throwing a fit looking for the extra morsel of damage.

And aren't you onto something much bigger with this- "Thanks to the Deathmark Alert it becomes obvious when a recon is about". What would you think about hiding the deathmark mechanic, such that recons could just debuff them instantly? The deathmark alert is really quite terrible for recon.. it gives you like 2 seconds of no defense to use your probably normal weapon on them, and then they're back to normal and you're out in the open ready to get your face mashed in but beyond that, it takes like 30 seconds of cloaking about goofily to actually remove someone's defense to begin with.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 17:49
#11
Zincamania-Forum
the deathmark is already

the deathmark is already strong, no need to make it stronger. You're making it sound like recon is a sitting duck against anything, which isnt true. Recon does feel a bit weaker than the other classes, but its far from harmless. And thats just in a 1v1 situation. If it was for example a 2v2, the recon could deathmark the 2 enemy strikers, while his teammate striker can hit them for huge damage, after they are deathmarked nothing is stopping the recon from attacking the 2 enemies either, punishing them when they try to hit his teammate. I think this might even become way too easy if the recon got a speed boost while cloaked. He could easily get near any enemy who is trying to attack his teammates because of his increased speed, then proceed to smack them with a divine avenger when they stop to attack, dealing huge damage because of the deathmark.

Tue, 03/24/2015 - 19:22
#12
Crashburnboom's picture
Crashburnboom
Tactical Quote INCOMING!!! 3. Doo Doot. 2. Doo Doot. 1. Doo Doot

"Another thing to consider would be if enemy recons could heal while inside the range of a guardian shield while cloaked, and while doing so, damage all players within the shield instead of heal them. The damage would be about 5 pips worth of normal damage (thus can be resisted), and the recon would still heal for the usual guardian shield amount. The recon would not lose shield while inside of an enemy guardian's shield range, effectively making them invisible to the guardian.
This introduces a new idea too - shielding guardians cannot be affected by the initial deathmark. However, a teammate that walks into a guardian shield will get deathmarked, and perhaps deathmarked players cannot be protected by the guardian shield. This means a recon hiding inside an enemy guardian shield would essentially kill off the guardian's teammates if they walk into the shield and get deathmarked, as they will have no defense and be losing 5 pips of health per second. Bonus points if a recon hiding in a guardian shield instantly deathmarks enemies.

When the guardian lowers their shield, they can be affected by the initial deathmark, and even if they shield again they can be fully deathmarked, and be remarked for as long as they shield.

What does this do? It makes the new guardian very vulnerable to recons, and recons would turn guardians into moving circles of damage rather than a teammate protector. Guardians can still fight back, but if all they do is shield on a control point then a recon could sabotage their operation.
And with that idea actually, make recons able to capture points 20% faster than the regular capture rate while cloaked, and allow them to capture points at 10% of the current rate while cloaked and only one enemy is on the point. A guardian capturing a point will not actually be capturing it while a recon sits inside their shield, and once they notice they'll have to fight back the recon."
- Fangel @http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/108938#comment-987446

@Fangel
"That whole Guardian into damage dealer is an awesome idea. That could help balance recons against guardian + striker pairs.
Also, I question the amount of damage that is done (as we are trying to make guardians a bit more supportive and balancing the other classes will increase the amount of recons) but that's negotiable. Maybe just cause 4 pips of damage upon mark and canceled out healing?"
- Me, Crashburnboom

Edit:
@Waterbeat-forums
I agree with Fezhor
I think that Deathmark should actually be buffed. (extend by a few seconds, and/or see Fangel's post above).
And remember that defense is only set a set amount (100). If suggestions that Strikers get a lower base defense, like suggested in the Striker PvP balance thread, then this renders it even more ineffective.
I find it extremely rare/hard to actually hit a deathmarked target because you can't even get close to them without triggering the mark (without MSI) and they're so busy trying to search for you/get away from you, that you don't actually get to attack. (Keep in mind I don't use BKC or merc demo) Bonus points if it is striker with a gun.

And that's good if the recon can do that because it serves his roles as a solo assassin and a team supporter/enemy team harrasser.

Wed, 03/25/2015 - 11:42
#13
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
..............

The whole point of these suggestions is to make each of the classes better at synergizing (working together), Recons need a buff but they don't need to be so powerful they can kill a group of knights easily. Their job is to debuff the enemies so their teammates can go in and do the damage, and to take out stragglers.

Deathmark should be longer but how much would be fair to each player? I suggest making Deathmark length dependent on the power of the enemy's loadout. Things like ASI, CTR, DMG, MSI and HP buffs would lengthen the timer, so a person with a fully Maxed out set in PVP would be deathmarked for a massive amount of time while a person with little or even negative values would suffer little.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Punishment_(move)

The deathmark alert should be small and not very noticeable, making it big and obvious really subverts the recon's powers of stealth.

Thu, 03/26/2015 - 14:23
#14
Fangel's picture
Fangel
A combat triangle really needs to make a comeback

Big thingy that Crashboom quoted me on punishes guardians for keeping their shield up without taking out recons first. It would be like if a Spy could make a medigun deal damage while near a medic in TF2 if they "sapped" the medic's medigun. All the medic has to do in that situation is stop healing teammates, kill the spy, then return to healing duty. Similar ideas there.

And I like the idea of death mark being affected by items. Perhaps certain resistances would become "deathmark resistance", such as curse resistance could lower deathmark times (would make most overpowered sets be affected as they have curse vulnerability). This would also be great in line with the suggestion for strikers to have overall negative status resist of -1 or -2, as that would increase deathmark duration on them.
Either that or add a completely new stat on the shield for these things, I dunno.

Thu, 03/26/2015 - 19:10
#15
Zincamania-Forum
@crash

@Waterbeat-forums
I agree with Fezhor
I think that Deathmark should actually be buffed. (extend by a few seconds, and/or see Fangel's post above).
And remember that defense is only set a set amount (100). If suggestions that Strikers get a lower base defense, like suggested in the Striker PvP balance thread, then this renders it even more ineffective.
I find it extremely rare/hard to actually hit a deathmarked target because you can't even get close to them without triggering the mark (without MSI) and they're so busy trying to search for you/get away from you, that you don't actually get to attack. (Keep in mind I don't use BKC or merc demo) Bonus points if it is striker with a gun.

And that's good if the recon can do that because it serves his roles as a solo assassin and a team supporter/enemy team harrasser.

-> defense is not a set amount of 100, you can have more than that. the 100 is there to make sure you dont get 2HKO'd by anything you dont resist. This game is already fast paced, people die in 4 hits and fights are over pretty quickly usually. Recons deathmark is not that big of a deal usually, but that doesnt mean it cant be powerful. When I end up in a 2v1, me being a striker against a striker+recon, I need to be very careful and stay way from the striker while deathmarked, cause one hit while deathmarked means losing. Most recons that I see simply go recon or guardian because they need the hp boost striker lacks, but there are some good recons out there that can be devastating with deathmark + DA/GF swings. Also, what if the recon has a gun? I am not a gunner and I dont play recon, but recently I have tried the combination and it was pretty successful. I realised I wouldnt be as good at capping as a striker, so I decided to camp on one of the points closest to their base, I was able to put the deathmark to good use, especially when more than 1 player came to attack. You just hide for a few seconds until they get deathmarked, then when you land 2 hits on them with a gun, theyre already in trouble and they havent even hit you yet.

What you said about strikers getting less defence... it is true that that would make deathmark less effective, but I also replied on that thread and as Ive mentioned then, giving strikers less defence will accomplish the opposite, everyone will run glass cannon armors because there would be no point in going for anything with more defense (like class or plate defense). Sure strikers would die faster, but everyone would run chaos or BKC. If it were to make every striker die in the equivalent of 4 flourish or 3 DA hits regardless of defense, you just made BK sets more dominant. If it were to make most sets die in 3 flourish hits and piercing max skolver sets in 4, then guardians will be too strong compared to strikers.

the roles you described for recon are merely your opinion. I dont think it needs to be a solo assassin, that would imply he goes out alone to kill people fast and clean without being hit and barely seen. Sounds a bit much for 1 class's abilities. It is definitely an enemy team harasser at this point, with the deathmark, invisibility and a good amount of HP. Recons could also be turrets, rapidly firing their guns while kiting to stay alive, with the ability of hiding invisible for a while to wait for the deathmark and a better opportunity to attack.

Fri, 03/27/2015 - 10:35
#16
Fangel's picture
Fangel
About defense

Lowering the total base defense of strikers is a good move as it will make them more likely to wear resistant gear. It makes mixing and matching gear for strikers (i.e., black kat + mercurial) get a lot less defense. If you wear full chaos you would get an okay amount of elemental and normal protection but be vulnerable to the other two damage types. If you mix black kat and chaos for that sweet damage bonus of ultra universally then you only have good normal resistance and your elemental/shadow defense will be about 70 anyways each. Saying that this will create more glass cannons is false because the players who currently use glass cannons won't stop and the people who don't use glass cannons aren't suddenly going to switch over. Skolvers would have the upper hand against a chaos user in a flourish fight because of piercing resistance and chaos users would get an upper hand in a hammer battle. It makes weapon choices more valuable to strikers rather than "use GF and toothpick to win".

Mon, 03/30/2015 - 11:33
#17
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
..............

With the status debuff added to strikers we would see more of them forced to spend a trinket or UV slot in order to become Hazebomb immune. This would drop their staying power on the field, and would make haze bombers (a Recon specialty) much more useful.

The glass cannons would become even more Glass not due to lower defenses but due to them having to allocate other potential power towards becoming more status resistant.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system