Basil's 'Bacil-only' recipe list
dim, 04/05/2015 - 07:38
Hi. I added a few guns to Basil's recipe list and I don't know whether what I did was correct or not. The guns I added were from the gunner update and were stated to only be acquirable through recipes sold by Basil on the wiki. Furthermore, I am currently unaware of a place where they are otherwise sold so I thought I should do my bit since this means that they probably should be there.
The guns I added:
- Flaming Pulsar, Blazing Pulsar, Wildfire
- Freezing Pulsar, Frozen Pulsar, Permafroster
- Pierce Blaster, Breach Blaster, Riftlocker
- Elemental Blaster, Fusion Blaster, Arcana
- Shadow Blaster, Umbral Blaster, Phantamos
- Dark Chaingun, Black Chaingun, Grim Repeater
Is this correct or would you like me to remove them? I apologise in advance if any mistakes were made.
dim, 04/05/2015 - 13:28
#2
Ultoros
That would seem helpful as long as people could actually see part of the list from the Basil page instead of having to click on a link to see the list in the first place (or is that what you said?). The reason I think so is because some people would be blind to a single link which looks just like the many others but is very important in terms of the page they are looking at. Unless, of course, you guys could make it stand out in a way. I personally think Basil is getting too many recipes in the first place but what's done is done.
Hm. I just realised that those other 20,000 gunner armors aren't on there either. The list would seriously be too long and so navigating the page would be extremely annoying. I mean this was already an eye-full. Imagine scrolling through that in a list. I agree with your suggestion, hopefully something can be done about that sooner or later.
dim, 04/05/2015 - 14:08
#3
20,000
There aren't 20,000 new gunner armor pieces. There are just 128 of them. (This is supposed to be a joke. 128 is already a crazy amount.)
Here is my best idea: Basil's wiki page should have a section called "Basil-Only Recipes". Being a section, it would be difficult to overlook. It would have some text about how these recipes tend to be lucrative (but not all of them, so the player should research the auction house first). And it would have a link to the Basil-Only category. Because you don't want to have 150 links sitting there in the middle of Basil's wiki page.
Anyway, thanks for editing.
dim, 04/05/2015 - 16:30
#4
@This
The thought crossed my mind when we were working on simplifying the Recipe Page but it took lower priority on my personal to do list. I would fully support a category of "Basil Only" recipes. I was going to do an automation for depth based on star level entry for relevant every item in the acquisition section after implementing the new infoboxes from our Amazing(ly boring) project, adding an automatic category registration would be a snap. I was also going to add history into a notes section on these pages so players can know how long an item has been in the game compared to others, also that information is just interesting.
Something like:
== Acquisition ==
Vendors who sell the [[recipe]] for this item:
*[[Basil]] (Randomly in [[Arcade]], only depth blah and blah)
from an input like:
{{Basil|star=a number|only = yes or no}}
"star" would register: depth blah (and blah for some)
"only" would register: relevant category suggested in this thread
Since we templated the GunnerItem pages, we only need a few switches to get that done for all the new 20,000 "recipes" relatively instantly.
I can make the template now (well, really when I see a comment reply), and see if people want to do some of the grit editing that implements said template.
I like this because we've really been pushing the use of categories more (categories are great) - after we finish the infoboxes for armor and helms (4* armor and helms remain with a few oddities in helms), and proofread the weapon pages, and proofread the armor pages, this can get some of my attention.
That way, we don't have a huge amount of work if OOO decides to make triplet NPCs who have these recipes - just swap inputs from yes/no on the gunnerhelm and gunnerarmor templates, add the relevant info, and fix a few guns. Tah daaaaaah.
Happy egg finding day.
lun, 04/06/2015 - 04:07
#5
Ultoros - Just smile and wave
Okay. This seems like a good idea. As someone who has pretty much done no wiki editing before, I doubt I can help be of much help. It really depends on how hard/easy it is to do. Well, at least you know that one Ultoros supports you.
Also, excuse me if you've already said this, but how would you get to that category then? From my small understanding this would show who sells it, where (and link to Basil page?) but would there be a way to get to the "Basil-Only" category without having to use the link at the bottom?
lun, 04/06/2015 - 04:29
#6
Ultoros
On individual item pages, you'd have to either click basil, then click the category we link to on the basil page, or use the bottom link. Linking to a basil-only recipe category on each individual page would get in the way of more important information and generate unnecessary clutter. It would also be redundant.
I'll make the template after I finish 4* armor and helmet infoboxes and have breakfast.
Implementing the template should be relatively simple - we could certainly use the help. I'll come back here and post when the template is done, it will likely take a few tweaks before we can do mass-implementation.
lun, 04/06/2015 - 23:21
#7
There
The template and how to use it. Please check over the code and make sure that the inputs generate accurate results (like star X = depth(s) Y, I could have made mistakes).
There are a few live examples in the relevant category, or just go to the Argent Peacemaker page and look at acquisition section since it's all populated with gunner stuff.
Help is much appreciated. If you do help:
-implement the template with inputs explained in documentation
-make sure you put it in the right section on the page, after a bullet (use Argent Peacemaker page as example)
-make sure it's registering the category correctly on the bottom of the page you are editing
-always preview before saving the page
Any more questions, come here to ask them. I have already implemented it on all the gunner armor/helmet pages - these are all templated so implementation would not have been as intuitive, no worries.
After the template is implemented significantly (like the category is actually populated), we can link to it on the Basil page and remove the related clutter.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention - please join us as an editor, we need more slaves. Er I mean volunteers.
EDIT: I feel like doing something similar for hoh vendors (not a category registration) would be helpful - like "Rank blahblah and above, bound". Thoughts?
lun, 04/06/2015 - 11:50
#8
Ultoros
I don't think it's necessary since a knight can found out what is and isn't sold in the HoH at a certain rank once they click on the vendor's wikipage.
All vendors have exactly this on their pages:
- Availability of Recipes:
- Hall of Heroes at 4-1: Up to 2* Recipes
Hall of Heroes at 5-2: Up to 3* Recipes
Hall of Heroes at 6-2: Up to 4* Recipes
Hall of Heroes at 8-2: Up to 5* Recipes
I personally would think that's enough. Knights find out pretty early on that they can't buy higher tier stuff the lower ranking HoH but that higher tiers sell the lower star recipes.
Anyway, on the topic of Basil's page, if the category for "Recipes only available from Basil" is used, would the list that is currently being used still be used in some way?
- I'll definitely do what I can to help the wiki if I know how to do it. If I don't I'll just post threads here regarding that. However, I can't promise to become a full fledged wiki editor as I have exams coming up (I need to get my stupid self off Spiralknights). I appreciate the offer though, thanks.
mar, 04/07/2015 - 05:25
#9
@questions
The HoH vendor thing would be for the sake of convenience and wiki consistency. You could say the same for Basil, but I get asked "what depth for basil" iin-game constantly - even from veteran players. HoH less so, but that's only because they're a click away on both the wiki and in-game. I fear that the bound vs. unbound issue will be very...bad...if we don't constantly clarify it.
On Basil's page, whether or not to use the old list is up to the community. I would be in favor of completely replacing it with a link to our new category so we never have to update it (categories self-update their lists as they're added to, which saves work for editors).
RL > games. The wiki will be here after stinky tests are over.
EDIT: an example of what to do for Basil in mission lobbies is on the Wolver Coat page.
mer, 04/08/2015 - 11:21
#10
*ahem*
When implementing templates, do not revert other format aspects of the page to the previous (undesired) state - just implement the template.
Minor change: removed "recipe" linking in vendor section, having the recipe section link to recipe instead. Saves a lot of consistency issues, and wiki articles really shouldn't link to the same thing more than once - it's preferred that linking to the linked-to thing occurs with the first instance of the thing, but that's just not convenient here. Going to be doing some cleanup edits regarding this shortly. Sorry for late notice on this I got the ZZZs and didn't fix the example pages.
In general:
In vendor acquisition sections:
replace "that" with "who" - from grammar nutters, "you use "who" when you are talking about a person and "that" when you are talking about an object." Strangers are people! Even though they're pixels.
fix "vendors who sell this item are:" to "vendors who sell this item:" - the "are" is redundant and cluttery.
Or just focus on the Basil template and ignore everything else, there's a whole bunch of inconsistencies regarding the acquisition section of wiki pages. None of this is superbly important, the information is there and that's the most important thing.
mer, 04/08/2015 - 11:34
#11
Ultoros
Yeah, I apologise about the acquisition section part. I checked a page for the newer equipment and thought that it meant that those which included recipe and alchemy path were outdated. I'll keep that in mind from now on.
As for the grammatical stuff, I was replacing the "that" with "who" when I came across it or inserting the whole line if it didn't have one. I was using the Wolver Coat page as a guideline for this. I didn't get across to inserting the templates to that many pages but those that I did didn't have "that", those that do were already there. The same goes for "are", I was also removing them as I came across it.
I'll try to just focus on the Basil template from now on.
Thanks for clearing this up though. I'll try not to mess up again but I shall not make promises.
mer, 04/08/2015 - 11:47
#12
:)
No worries. Having help is fantastic. The above post was meant to be a notice for everyone interested in this project. You wouldn't believe the derps I made when I started out (and still do sometimes, really)...and have seen others make.
ven, 09/04/2015 - 08:21
#13
Updating/checking Basil
Could perhaps I be of assistance?
When it comes to checking Basil for recipes, I visit Basil in Tier 3 at least once a day. I would not mind gathering this data, checking recipes he has in other Tiers or perhaps in Mission Lobbies if it's necessary.
If it comes to updating Basil's page on the Wiki, maybe I could give a hand. Mission 7-2 In Cold Blood template looks nice, perhaps I could just copy/paste the same template for other Missions to free your hands a bit. Or bring other information about Basil to your attention, since I would not feel comfortable changing the content of the page without approval first, like the fact that recipes Basil offers change with every single visit, even if a person goes to Basil multiple times a day in the same gate. This is just an example and it's common knowledge, but then again it's not stated in the Wiki.
ven, 09/04/2015 - 09:09
#14
Yes, please
We could certainly use help updating Basil's page. If you like the format I made for In Cold Blood, please use it :). It's designed to provide information in a non-repetitive manner that can be used on more than one page, hence the subpage format. Does anyone think it should also have the crown price information? It's repetitive because the game has universal recipe pricing based on star level, but the info is convenient for users just looking at the information quickly who might not have the pattern in their heads yet. Feel free to make the format, prices can be added via a switch now or later or never, as we please, considering the current code - just make sure to include the star info when making the subpages.
Regarding Basil's mechanics... I'm very fuzzy on the coding or "rules," so, if anyone can look into his rotation specifics (as they are now), that would be great. For example, if you buy a recipe from Basil on one arcade run, and manage to get to him again within a short time span (same gate or another gate, doesn't matter), he won't have the recipe you bought in stock for you (he will for other players who joined early enough), indicating a timed universal rotation of perhaps 15-20 minutes? Yeah, actual data would be better.
sam, 09/05/2015 - 05:19
#15
Crowns or no crowns?
Looks like the Basil check is well under way (many thanks to Hikaru for the bulk creation of informative subpages), and we'll be implementing the information on individual item pages soon. There seems to be a lot of page format cleaning up to do as well, as per this discussion. But we've secretly known about this for a while, the life of a wiki editor is choosing which elephant out of the herd in the room to look at.
Regarding Basil's Mission Lobby Inventory, do we like displaying crown information or not? To me, it's cluttery, but to new/forgetful players, it's generally useful. Compare both locations the subpage is used - Basil's page and the relevant mission page's First Floor, such as In Cold Blood. We can easily include this information or not via the Recipe Template.
dim, 12/06/2015 - 16:09
#16
Merp
As many of you know, we've been collecting data and the system has evolved greatly - see node 112858. So, crown or no crown info in the acquisition master templates:
Pros:
-New players get the information right away
-Easy to compare Item price vs. Recipe-Item cost+Recipe component cost
Cons:
-Cluttery, repetitive within section
-Repetitive across sections (recipe subsection has this information too)
-Might hinder new players from "getting it" - that all recipes of X star from NPCs are sold for the same X-star price no matter the vendor, the fact that the information is even listed next to each vendor in the acquisition template is sort of misleading in this respect: if it's listed in this manner, does that mean it can be dynamic? For those unfamiliar, it might imply as much.
I prefer the acquisition system with no crowns in the "Vendor" aspect.
The bound and location information remains extremely useful and not repetitive, of course.
On a similar note, the crown cost for actual items (vs. recipes) should probably stay, though they too follow star pricing patterns from vendors, this information is not available elsewhere on the item's page - it's in conflict with recipe crown price con reason #3.
dim, 12/13/2015 - 09:34
#17
I sometimes forget the price of 2-3* recipes, I don't think I'm the only one. A way we could make it:
Acquisition
The recipe for this item costs x crowns. Vendors who sell the recipe for this item (or something with similar wording - the point is to move it from the recipe ot the acq section):
- blabla
- blabla
- basil
Recipe
the alchemy cost for this x* item is x crowns. below...
dim, 12/13/2015 - 13:54
#18
:) Thanks for reply!
Sure, with the new acquisition template system, that would be easy to do. It would only be a matter of mass text-replacing empty spaces. This would only take a few moments per star section per template.
I think we should remove the "recipe-as-an-item" cost from the recipe section, if we add this information to the vendor section, in order to maintain clarity and avoid repeats. All we'd have to do is modify Template:Recipe/start IF we decide to do include the information closer to vendors instead. With that above proposal of non-repetitive wording, I would be in favor of this change.
Then we would have a very clear division between "recipe-as-an-item cost" and "the cost of making this item according to its recipe." So yeah, I really like the way this is headed :)
Your edits seem correct. So thanks for making them. :)
In the long run this list may not be a good idea, because it is hard to maintain as the game changes. Probably a better solution is to put every Basil-only item into a category called something like "Basil-Only", and link to the category from the Basil page. Maybe this can be automated in the construction of the Acquisition section. Maybe Dracora-Speaking has already been working on it.