Combat ally NPCs are annoying. Maybe let players tell them what to do?
Mo, 05/18/2015 - 21:31
I have talked with a few friends and we are tired of NPCs that get in the way of our gameplay. Allies summoned with pickups bust vana's ice, mechas/rescued knights knock things out of our attack paths while dealing very little damage themselves, and do a variety of other stupid things. Why fix this? Because it's awful and it doesn't make sense.
1) why would a knight sabotage our efforts. Are they spies for enemy forces!?
2) a knight that we rescue would probably be too exhausted to fight properly - so I understand the pathetic dmg, but lifting gear to fight takes effort too. Why not just have them follow you timidly with no weapons? I mean where do they even get their weapons? Weren't they in prison? (Game logic). You could still be an awful person and use them as a damage sponge.
3) Rhendon with a blitz needle trying to shoot through solid walls. While talking. Good job Rhendon.
4) Vaelyn making herself scarce. Frequently.
5) Knights going completely spaztastic and running around and continuously into walls. Who fed them sugar?
My solution is (well, not for 3 or 4, that's just nonsense):
Toggle an NPC's offensive behavior by talking to them - make them hold position or follow. Alternatively, have more options - follow passive, hold position passive, and both of those aggressive. You could even select a command from a menu, like you do when interacting with players (like starting a trade in Haven etc.) if they can stand in one spot and attack from there, that would actually be pretty cool. Another game, Warframe, implemented something like this recently, because the playerbase complained about various stupid things NPCs do in that game too. In warframe, you can tell the NPCs to stay in one place or follow you. They'll attack anything in range under both conditions.
Suddenly, we have knight turrets. Use them to knock enemies into your attack path! Yeah! I try to do this anyway...but sheesh. There are a few problems with this...probably party buttons and cutscenes would override any player commands...blahblah.
This has been complained about/suggested a few times I think. Sorry if it's completely repetitive.
From Feedback:
This was a problem in 2012. It's 2015! And the NPCs have been fed sugar, so it's worse.
Suggested:
1) Make the Attack/Fall Back/Follow Me/Help Me commands already in the game apply to NPCs. Variations in behavior have been suggested in another thread and this one, but the general idea is to make use of these otherwise annoying spam commands.
2) improve the general AI to seem less spastastic and more aware of their environment. This includes not shooting through walls (looking at you, Rhendon!) Comment #2 has more details.
3) add the NPCs to the squad with their own icons like players, with an interactive menu to command them from anywhere (instead of mine, where you have to be near them, take a second to target them to click them, and hope to Vog they don't run around on their sugar high as you do so).
4) All of these available so players can have a customized experience.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 06:13
#2
.....
It adds an extra bit of challenge to what would be a typical floor, now you not only have to account for enemy actions but for your allies as well.
I do agree they need some sort of buff.
Mecha-knights should frequently deal shock to enemies
Recon Knights should deathmark targets on entry but also lower defenses of anything they hit with their autogun
Turrets should Freeze enemies
Vaelyn should teleport to the player more often (except in the last battle where players could just die and let her carry)
Gunner NPCs should check to see if they even can hit something before shooting
Sword NPCs should try to stay on the player's screen but avoid monsters in the player's vicinity and line of sight
Di, 05/19/2015 - 11:09
#3
/agree Hexzyle
I agree with Hexzyle's post. If anyone's scrolled down this far and didn't want to click on the link, it's essentially using the battle emotes to control NPCs.
Personally, other than commanding them, I think that all AIs are pretty fine as of right now. Only minor changes I would make would be mecha knights need more health, the turrets need a longer lifespan (or have infinite time active in exchange for lower health and max status vulnerability), and Vaelyn needs to not fight the infinitely-spawning void monsters - she should prioritize following you. Of course Vaelyn's problem could be solved also with the commands, but making her default to the 'follow me' behavior would be wonderful.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 12:01
#4
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
Since you graveyarded your last thread and avoided a question, I decided to look for an answer here, but if I don't get one I'll just know you wanted to dodge the dispute before I could respond
Anyways, more on topic this is a good idea, but using a menu like in haven would get in the way, like trying to shoot an enemy and accidentally opening the npc menu would quickly become a nuisance, i would add my own suggestion but you seem like you would fight to the death any idea that adds to the hud, or at least to the graveyard
Di, 05/19/2015 - 12:12
#5
Oohnorak
I'd appreciate it if you didn't clutter threads with personal grievances, and I'm sure other readers feel the same. That's why I sent the other one to the graveyard. It's one of the only threads I've ever sent there, besides rather out of date boring wiki format discussions in the editors' forum. Don't carry over threads that have been graveyarded. This is bordering on breaking that one thing...don't Re-create threads that have been Graveyarded, locked, or unpublished. They were sent to the graveyard for a reason - and that's where ghosts should stay. Otherwise stuff like this spreads all over the place and metastasizes and ew. I didn't dodge a question - I already answered it multiple times but whatever. Feel free to talk to me in-game, my IGN is Novaster.
Add your suggestion here. Don't let someone else's opinion (or your perceived notion of one) deter you from expressing yourself. Just do it in a way that doesn't knock others down, unless said knocking is constructive.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 12:18
#6
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
Well you didn't answer it, and there was nothing personal until you began calling me condescending, but I'll just copy you and not respond to what you say on that particular topic
Suggestion, when NPCs are freed give them all a single spot under the team that says "rescued knights" and put the menu in there, but i expect a form of resistance referencing "changing the ui" as if it were a complete overhaul like you did earlier
Di, 05/19/2015 - 12:31
#7
Don't let them break ur stride There is light on the other side
This would be pretty fun for sure! I would honestly enjoy it in the clockworks especially imagining all the trolling I could do...a bunch of mecha knights hanging out by the elevator getting ready to shock my party members!
Anyways nice suggestion, and ignore the troll (people who are blatantly following you topic to topic) if they don't like the suggestion they can post a better option. This part of the forums is used so players can share their ideas, though all ideas may not be great or added into the game it is a fun read! The Dev's/Game Masters do read this area sometimes so who knows they might add something like this!
Di, 05/19/2015 - 12:46
#8
"This would be pretty fun for sure! I would honestly enjoy it in the clockworks especially imagining all the trolling I could do...a bunch of mecha knights hanging out by the elevator getting ready to shock my party members!"
I though if you are inflicted with a status it goes away next floor.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 13:40
#9
Still okie
I though if you are inflicted with a status it goes away next floor.
You are severely underestimating the power of mecha knights in the hands of Njthug.
But yeah, a sort of menu created by clicking on the NPC or a portrait would be not as great, as a portrait would get confusing and clicking on NPCs during combat would be annoying.
Having them react to the following commands would be great:
- /attack - aggressive behavior
- /fallback - defensive behavior
- /followme - keep within X tiles of player
- /helpme - Only aggros to enemies within X radius of you, however if the enemy leaves that radius keep attacking until enemy is defeated before returning to the player.
- /wait - makes the NPC hold the position where you were standing. Will not move outside of a 3 tile diameter without returning to that spot (attacking an enemy might make them step off that spot)
- /ready - NPC will respond with /ready... If anyone else wants this to do something I'd love to hear what it might be able to do.
Best part about all these commands is that they're all bindable! By default they're on a numpad, but any player could make use of these commands in the middle of combat, either through typing or pushing a button.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 13:48
#10
Fangel
Oh...those text commands are much better imo. For heated situations the keybind would be great. I prefer to use keyboard commands whenever I can, but people seem to like buttons. Maybe an option for the player to choose what they like would be best? I really like it when games do that.
Di, 05/19/2015 - 14:36
#11
Ehh...
The game has a tendency to lag for a moment whenever you open a menu, plus you're immobilized when trying to do them. In the middle of combat you don't have time to click through menus - you need that NPC right next to you right now!
Same reason why you have to be in a safe spot to spark someone while in combat.
Spiral Knights already has the ability to bind keys to several buttons, so if you want your "call NPC to you" button to be mouse5, you can do that. You can also have it be h or something, whatever floats your boat. So that's a thing.
And perhaps the /ready command would make the NPC stop following you and default to an "aggressive" behavior, but it will respond to other knights. Either that or /thank.
Potentially the /look command could also be a sort of "NPC walks X blocks in the direction the player pointed and then does the equivalent of /wait".
I think that's all the numpad/bindable commands, with /thank being it's own side bit.
Mi, 05/20/2015 - 03:32
#12
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
Nj I'm not following topic to topic, I stated in the last thread he made when he mentioned thus that I would support it as its own idea, so of course I would make a comment on a thread for the idea
@fangel, right, I forgot about key binding commands, that seems to be a good idea that doesn't require implementing that many new things
Mi, 05/20/2015 - 04:57
#13
@Dracora-Speaking
I'd appreciate it if you didn't clutter threads with personal grievances, and I'm sure other readers feel the same.
This.
If I don't ever respond to something, it's generally because I'm over arguing something. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, the point of the matter is I don't feel like a comment I'm going to post will positively help either the thread or the point I'm trying to make. I won't chase a person down if they don't respond to me, nor will I hold a grudge, and I would prefer if the same approach was shown to me. Every thread is a new leaf, a fresh start on a discussion and it's discussees.
Relevant because of my sometimes cynical approach to suggestions has cropped up a few times in the past, and may again in the future, but this infrequent sardonic attitude is almost never reflected ingame, and it is far less likely to show up in my General Discussion comments.
@Dracora-Speaking
@Fangel: Oh...those text commands are much better imo.
@Oohnorak
@Fangel: right, I forgot about key binding commands, that seems to be a good idea that doesn't require implementing that many new things
Oh okay. I'm glad I just simply linked an old comment instead of bothering to retype it because looks like no-one read it anyway.
Mi, 05/20/2015 - 09:35
#14
Hexzyle
Personally, I avoid comments that consist only of links, out of habit I just don't look at 'em beyond "oh that's a link" or click 'em cause they usually lead to a meme or a rickroll, so yeah. That's my reason. Of course, if it were my jerb to read forums, I wouldn't do that. I've read it now~ You know it's a good suggestion at least.
Time to edit the OP.
Do, 05/21/2015 - 01:58
#15
I repeated the tutorial, and there now is proper knight AI in the game.
AI that uses charge attacks, normal attacks, bombs guns, shield bashses and dashes. With enough time those guys were even able to bring a boss down.
Why isn't their AI the regular for all supportive knights?
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/45396#comment-295673