Ancient Plate Shield vs Grand Tortoise
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 03:41
So when the new Missions got published, I was using Ancient Plaste Shield in Dreams and Nightmares. Surprisingly it proved more useful than expected; I also did read in a post that turrets and Souls deal normal damage aswell.
By comparing some shields I got three questions (by knowing that certain graphical bars exceed the visible area):
1.
Which Shield offers more defense vs normal?
-Ancient Plate Shield
-or Grand Tortoise?
Both shields seem to be completely identically to me, even the Status resistance. Only difference seems the slowness of Grand Tortoise in trade of the shield bash upgrade.
2.
I also noticed another Shield of interest vs These Shooting jellies:
-Ironmight Plate Shield
How is this better/worse compared to the previous two named shields in my post?
3.
Or should i go to another shield like Savage tortoise from the beginning because the poision Status is a too big tradeoff that destroys the shield too fast?
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 07:39
#2
The Tortodrone shields are merely a couple status swaps away from the shields that they are sidegrades to.
I wrote on that page that it has identical stats to the Ancient Plate Shield, although this is just speculation due to the fact we cannot see the end of the normal defense bar. There are a few different things I would like to identify regarding the plate shields:
A. Does the Ancient Plate Shield protect more against normal damage than the Volcanic Plate Shield? Logic points to "yes", since the VPS has fire protection while the APS does not, if it also had the same amount of normal defense it would be a direct upgrade.
B. Does the Ironmight Plate Shield have the same amount of normal defense as the Volcanic Plate Shiled? Logic points to "yes", because the only difference between the two is one has fire protection, one has piercing protection, and it seems reasonable to assume that these are worth the same.
C. Finally, does the Volcanic Plate Shield have the same normal defense as the Grand Tortoise?
As far as the other Tortodrone shields are concerned, being almost identical to their counterparts, it should be. But the Grand Tortoise is the one shield that isn't a status swap away from VPS or IPS. It has a status (or defense, depending on which one you're assuming it's a sidegrade of) removed, so it's sort of defying the rule here.
So perhaps it does have the same normal defense as the Ancient Plate Shield. It's a logical conclusion to make, but that doesn't justify that it's slightly out of character for the crafting line.
Just a note, with all the shield's total advantages and disadvantages in perspective, it seems that the Movement Speed Decrease: Low is intended to be the sole tradeoff for the stronger shield bash.
@Holy-Nightmare
Which Shield offers more defense vs normal?
-Ancient Plate Shield
-or Grand Tortoise?
Both shields have exact same defense stats
Can you prove this?
It offers the same pierce resist as the Royal jelly shield
http://media.spiralknights.com/wiki-images/e/e7/Equipment-Royal_Jelly_Sh...
http://media.spiralknights.com/wiki-images/1/1d/Equipment-Ironmight_Plat...
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 07:21
#3
@ Hex
He never mentioned the VPS in the OP so IDK why you talk about it.
Logically the Grand Tortoise would have the same defense stats since it is obviously a sidegrade just like the rest of the tortoshields. All the other tortshields have the same amount of defense as the main line's shield.
The IPS does have a bit less pierce defense but it has more total defense than the RJS and it doesn't cover you from an obsolete status.
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 07:55
#4
He never mentioned the VPS in
He never mentioned the VPS in the OP so IDK why you talk about it.
I brought up the VPS because I was asking a question about its correlation to the Grand Tortoise. It is relevant because the GT is its sidegrade.
Logically the Grand Tortoise would have the same defense stats since it is obviously a sidegrade just like the rest of tortoshields. All the other tortshields have the same amount of defense as the main line's shield.
So does this mean you are going back on your claim that the GT has the same defense as the APS?
and it doesn't cover you from an obsolete status.
It doesn't cover you from any status, so this double negative statement means moot. The Savage Tortoise however IS a defenitely superior sidegrade (as it protects from two common statuses instead of one uncommon one) but neither the Savage nor the IPS technically render the RJS obsolete.
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 11:17
#5
.....
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Shieldbearer_Guide#Tortodrone_Shields
According to the Shieldbearer guide on the Wiki the APS and the GT have the same stats......
Yes, I did get the RJS and the IPS bars mixed up, I still maintain that the plate shield is superior. Obviously the Savage Tortoise is the best piercing defense shield in the game but I also made a note of just how easy the pierce damage monsters are to deal with. Fiends are much more dangerous and with a large number of arenas ending with gremlins, fiends, or constructs the Elemental and Shadow shields are just as useful.
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 13:17
#6
thanks so far, but...
Thank you for your comments till now Hexzyle and Holy-Nightmare!
Side-though:
After reading all through this, I can see that the shield's defense question is still not answered or messureable... what a pity. The last time I did read something about shield's defense, I saw about a topic in which skepticraven claimed to run tests over shields and solve this puzzle.
Back to topic:
The overall question for me and also the reason why I created this topic is fallowing (in case that this was not clear from my opening): I am searching for the 'best' shield in Dreams and Nightmares. Yes I know that 'best' is relative and therefore I am collecting information so I will not regret wasting orbs and crystals into a wrong item.
By how I understood this mission there are fallowing attacks to consider:
-dominant normal damage (Zombies, Gremlins, Lumbers, void turrets, souls)
-some piercing damage (wolvers, jellies)
-and one group dealing poision which is, nevertheless due to its unpredictability, a dangerous foe, exspecially in groups (jelly)
-oh and almost forgot about stun, which is actually a lesser threat to me (lumbers and gremlins?)
What I want:
A shield, that can take a few hits while I run to a safer spot and strike back. I am myselfe that king of player that tries to never let a shield break, uses shield bumping (rising+lowering shield) and dashing a lot. But when it comes to tight situations, I want a shield that I can rely on.
Comments about my 3 questions so far:
1. If this what Holy-Nightmare said is true, then upgrading it while having already APS would be a waste (although I got a GT in planning, but it isnt on top of my list). Well, but if the GT's stats are higher, then I would take it.
By what I assume by the answers is: the stats are 'very similar', a more detailed answer can not be made.... unfortunally.
2. I asked about to compare because my APS does not take many hits when I get to the wave with all these jellies around. For me exactly these are the most dangerous foes here because their attacks seem very unpredictable (I write 'seem' here because I am not sure if the direction in whose they shoot is really not connected to anything). So I wonder, if the additional piercing defense is worth the loss in normal defense.
3. I brought savage up into this discussion because it is the only shield which has pierce+normal+poision defense. I am not asking if there does exist another shield; I am asking if this shield would be better or worse than the other shields in the DaN-mission. My main concern here is that savage does actually has fewer normal defense (which is the reason why I will not bring my dragon shield into this mission at all).
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 13:57
#7
......
The Savage Tortoise works quite well actually provided you are the kind of player who is very good at dodging the Swarm turret bullets and the Swarm souls, and seeing when a Void gel is about to attack (harder to do with a white background and numerous enemies possibly attacking at the same time).
I would suggest the Savage tortoise but if possible try to get a decent sized normal resists UV on it, Second in line I would suggest is the Ironmight plate shield with a Pierce and Poison resist as it's UVs.
Plate and Jelly shields are relatively cheap to craft and you may spot one in the AH you are interested in.
Lumbers are typically slower and in the Core there are no Silkwings or Menders to heal them. Void Thwackers on the other hand are a bit faster and have less predictable AI, they can also heal themselves so I would consider them a slightly larger threat.
Fr, 05/22/2015 - 23:20
#8
@Holy-Nightmare
According to the Shieldbearer guide on the Wiki the APS and the GT have the same stats......
I still maintain that the plate shield is superior
I agree, but I just love plate shields in general.
1.
Which Shield offers more defense vs normal?
-Ancient Plate Shield
-or Grand Tortoise?
Both shields have exact same defense stats. Each have their own uses though, the Grand Tortoise is slower which means that the slight drop in movement speed may force you to adjust how you currently play you will have to be better at predicting enemy attacks and you can't survive with this shield if you don't know when to tank and when to sidestep
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneDimensionalThinking
You do get the ability to aid your team by stunning larger amounts of enemies when needed though but the shield bash damage isn't that much to begin with, the real buff to the shield is the larger stun radius.
The Ancient plate shield is considered the gunner's "other" shield, it provides good defense in nearly any situation just due to it's huge stat bar. The fact that it doesn't hinder your movement means you have a bit more freedom than tortoshields offer.
2.
I also noticed another Shield of interest vs These Shooting jellies:
-Ironmight Plate Shield
The Ironmight is probably the best shield in the game for defending against pierce damage (I said defending since the Barbarous thorn shield is the best pierce resist shield for attacking). It offers the same pierce resist as the Royal jelly shield but since it doesn't have a resistance to an obsolete status it is allowed a larger normal defense bar. Basically it protects you just as well as the Royal jelly shield does when it comes to slimes and beasts but that larger normal bar means you can tank more damage from other monsters that may pop up in a jelly or beast habitat.
3.
Or should I go to another shield like Savage tortoise from the beginning because the poision Status is a too big tradeoff that destroys the shield too fast?
Beasts and slimes aren't considered the toughest monster families in the game, however the Savage Tortoise shield is the ONLY normal/pierce resist shield in the game that resists Poison and Shock. When it comes to Toxigels and Quicksilvers many people agree that these are some of the tougher individuals due to how unpredictable they can be. Toxigels can shoot spikes at random directions while Quicksilvers dash about wildly making this shield very useful. When comparing other tortoshields you can usually find at least one status they share with the shields you craft them up from.
Omegaward and Owlite both resist fire.
Gorgomega and Dread Skelly both resist freeze.
Grand Tortoise and ancient place both resist stun.